O Big Man, Where Art Thou?...
by Andrew Feinstein on May 10, 2010 9:20 AM MDT
in Denver Nuggets: News and Opinion
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Nuggets fans, management and all the scribes who follow the team universally agree on one thing: the Nuggets need a legitimate big man anchoring the center position. Good luck finding one.
In his latest in-depth column at HoopsWorld chronicling the Nuggets myriad offseason issues ranging from their free-agent-to-be general managers to the complications of acquiring new talent due to the Nuggets financial situation, my friend Travis Heath wrote: "...it's very tempting for people to write a piece listing the names of potential acquisitions via trade for any given team during the summer months. There is one inherent flaw in this approach, though: context is often lost." Maybe our egos are getting too big around here (considering that this site is now read monthly by almost five Pepsi Centers worth of readers, can you blame us?), but I felt like this line was targeted directly at the writers and readers of this very site.
Regardless of whom Heath had in mind, as usual he's right. His macro point is that the NBA offseason is a fluid process and teams like the Nuggets, who are cash-strapped and already at the luxury tax line, must wait in line to see how things shake out with the draft and big free agent signings before deploying their limited assets.
This doesn't mean, however, that we as fans can't start speculating on possible acquisitions - however unlikely they may be - even now. And just a few weeks ago you could already see the possible trades being bandied about in the game thread comments as it became evident that the Jazz were going to beat the Nuggets in Round 1.
This need for a bigger big man in a powder blue and gold Nuggets jersey has been around ever since Marcus Camby was shipped out to the Los Angeles Clippers for a trade exception two summers ago. And as I said during my recent interview with 104.3 The Fan's Sandy Clough, the time to acquire such a big man was probably during that same summer. At that time, Marc Gasol was only known for being Pau's younger brother and the Grizzlies were saddled with some ugly contracts they were desperate to move, potentially along with Gasol. And that same offseason Joakim Noah was still in the Bulls' doghouse and being labeled by many as a possible draft bust (after Noah got busted for marijuana possession in 2008, I suggested that the Nuggets go after him knowing Mark Warkentien's penchant for overlooking character in favor of talent).
Of course, deals for those guys never materialized (although The Denver Post's Mark Kiszla reported the Nuggets almost pulled the trigger on a deal for Gasol in 2008) and we've been left to watch the undersized Nene, a natural power forward, do yeoman's work anchoring the center position, even if he's not as tough as we all wish he'd be.
I have a bigger concern than Nene's toughness and what trades might be available, however. Like scouting hot girls at an Ivy League school, when it comes to acquiring a big man there's not a lot of selection. So before we make proposals to ship Nene, J.R. Smith and/or Kenyon Martin out of Denver for a big man, I'd like to comprise a short list of "acquire-able" candidates without getting into the specifics of a deal. Because as Heath points out, until we see how free agency and the draft shake out, it's hard to speculate on how a precise deal might get done.
By "acquire-able", I'm referring to big men whose contracts the Nuggets could swallow (even if the deal makes no sense for other reasons) and big men who could be expendable in the eyes of their current franchise. For example, I don't believe the younger Gasol nor Noah to be available anymore. Gasol is in the last year of a contract that will pay him "just" $3.5 million and Noah is still operating under his rookie contract. So unless the Nuggets are willing to part with Carmelo Anthony - something, to be clear, they should not do - in a deal for several players on the other end, grabbing big men bargains like Gasol or Noah will be virtually impossible. Oh, and neither Lopez brother is walking through the Pepsi Center doors, either.
That said, here is a fairly short and fairly ugly list of "acquire-able" big men that the Nuggets could target and be ready to pounce on as the summer transaction season unfolds (in no particular order)...
BRAD MILLER
Turning 34 this August, Miller still has some life in him and, as an unrestricted free agent, will be sought after by a number of teams for the mid-level exception (or more). The only way the Nuggets will get their hands on Miller will be if they can somehow dump K-Mart's salary, take back lesser salary but a longer-term deal and have some mid-level money to play with leftover.
BRENDAN HAYWOOD
I'd love to see Haywood in a Nuggets uniform next season but can't foresee a scenario in which this unrestricted-free-agent-to-be comes to Denver. Turning 31 this fall, Haywood is a much more attractive commodity than Miller and will likely be re-signed by the Mavericks whose owner, Mark Cuban, has no fear of the luxury tax line.
EMEKA OKAFOR
Hear me out on this one. I guarantee you that the Nuggets could land Okafor - who's having a "Benjamin Button" NBA career a la Joe Smith (i.e. he has gotten worse every year since his rookie year) - along with James Posey for K-Mart. New Orleans is hurting big-time financially and I bet they'd likely be amenable to this salary dump. The flip side, of course, is that the Nuggets would be on the hook to pay Okafor $14.5 million in 2013-14. Among Okafor's many problems is that he's not much bigger than Nene and has suddenly gotten tentative offensively (also like Nene). But could George Karl get to him somehow? It's an intriguing idea.
ANDRIS BIEDRINS
Biedrins' contract is ugly because of it's length (runs through 2013-14), but not necessarily because of the amount ($9 million per season). Biedrins - a legit seven-footer - had a horrible, injury-riddled 2009-10 campaign, but was a very serviceable center for two seasons before that. Likely wanting to get out from that contract, I believe the Warriors would deal Biedrins plus a contract throw-in like Anthony Morrow (whom I love) for Nene. But the Nuggets would be gambling big time on Biedrins' future health.
LUIS SCOLA
A unrestricted free agent, I can't imagine a scenario in which the Nuggets could score someone of Scola's caliber, but he's worth looking at. In the absence of Yao Ming, Scola had a breakout season in 2009-10 (I should know, he was my fantasy steal of the draft) and routinely put up double-doubles. Unfortunately, Scola is best suited for power forward and isn't the true center the Nuggets really need.
JERMAINE O'NEAL
O'Neal continuously gets written off, but once the youngest player ever drafted, O'Neal will turn 32 this fall and had a halfway-decent regular season. Unfortunately, O'Neal had one of the worst post-seasons in recent memory for a big man, making just nine of his 44 shot attempts for the entire series against the Celtics. If he can be had cheap enough, O'Neal is worth a look as a free agent acquisition.
RONNY TURIAF
Another oft-injured Warrior, Turiaf could be made available to the Nuggets - also along with Morrow - for J.R. Smith straight up. I'd do that deal tomorrow if I could. A bruising 6'9" (even though he's erroneously listed at 6'10"), Turiaf brings the type of character, hustle and gamesmanship the Nuggets desperately need and the Warriors may be the only franchise in the NBA willing to take on J.R.'s baggage.
JEFF FOSTER
According to Kiszla, the Nuggets allegedly almost got their hands on Foster last season before Foster shut things down with season-ending back surgery. Never a good thing. That said, readers here know I've been banging the Foster drum for some time. Given that he has one year left on his deal for $6.7 million, and considering the financial dire-straits that the Pacers find themselves in, a deal could still get done. I wouldn't send away J.R. for Foster, however, and doubt that the Pacers want anything to do with J.R. in the post-Ron Artest, post-Stephen Jackson era in Hoosier country.
ANDREW BYNUM
This is admittedly a real far-fetched stretch. But even though they make six times as much revenue as the Nuggets, the Lakers can be fiscally prudent sometimes. Having just re-upped Pau Gasol and Kobe Bryant through 2013-14 (a deal that pays Bryant - gulp - $30 million in that final season), Lamar Odom through 2012-13 and overpaid for Ron Artest through 2013-14, as well, Bynum - who doesn't get any action at the end of games and is always hurt - might be available...even to a conference rival. It might sound crazy, but would the Lakers consider trading Bynum for Nene to shore up their power forward position and save a few bucks? Or even crazier, would they consider trading Bynum for K-Mart to save a few bucks sooner than later? It's at least worth a phone call to Mitch Kupchak. But I doubt that Warkentien and Rex Chapman even have Kupchak's number as they've likely never called him.
AL JEFFERSON
Jefferson's name has popped up on numerous reader wish lists here, but as stupid as he is, I can't imagine Timberwolves' GM David Kahn parting with Jefferson for another power forward a la Nene or K-Mart. Like the crazy Bynum idea, it's at least worth a phone call. For example, would Kahn take K-Mart in exchange for Jefferson and a bad contract like Ryan Gomes? That would leave the Wolves with another year of pain while giving them flexibility into the future. Just a thought.
CHRIS BOSH
Since a number of fans and writers have mentioned the remote possibility of Bosh coming to Denver in a sign-and-trade, I'll entertain the idea here briefly. As I've said a number of times, I have to believe that Toronto could get something better than Nene and J.R. Smith in exchange for Bosh. But if the Nuggets could somehow, miraculously get that done, it's a no-brainer. With Bosh and Melo together, you'd only need a big stiff center like Foster and you'd be all set. We must remember, however, that Bosh will dictate the terms of where he's going this summer and I doubt Denver is on his list.
SHAQUILLE O'NEAL
I saved the best for last and will repeat what I said on the radio last week about O'Neal: he's 7'1", 330 pounds, he's an unrestricted free agent and he hates the Lakers. Other than the fact that he's the NBA's oldest player (hard to believe, I know) and would ruin George Karl's high-possession "system" as he did in Phoenix last season...why not?
Photos courtesy of AP: Duane Burleson, Bill Kostroun, Mark J. Terrell, Nell Redmond
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As a Big JR Fan...
I’d be totally okay with the Morrow-Turiaf deal. Morrow is maybe the best wide-open shooter in the league and can also handle the ball a bit as well (plus, he’s not selfish). Having a guy like that who you absolutely cannot leave open (unlike JR who is really pretty iffy unless he’s in a groove, he’s not a consistent 40%+ shooter) would help the bench unit a lot I think. He’s one of those guys too who might benefit from Karl’s coaching and discover some other abilities (I’m thinking combo-guard skills) and turn into an Afflalo-like steal.
i like that too
we get a consistent shooter off the bench. plus getting an additional player without adding salary helps us.
let's go nuggets! who u wit?
by 808inDenver on May 10, 2010 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, and even though Turiaf isn’t the most skilled guy around, he’s probably better offensively than Bird and will actually hold down the paint with his physicality as well as some blocked shots. JR on the Warriors is too good to be true also, and as a JR fan, I’d be all over that crazy shit… he’d probably average 25 PPG and then get mysteriously benched and then play spot minutes at PF. Oh, Nellie.
by Stumbleweed on May 10, 2010 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions
The thing is while I’m sure Nellie would love JR, from what I’ve read Turiaf is one of the few guys the Warriors don’t want to trade.
He actually is a decent rebounder
Morrow isn’t much of a defender. However, JR is just as bad, if not worse for his lack of effort. Turiaf gives us a 3rd big, and he gives us two backup French big men, which is awesome.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
nene would have to be a part of that and it doesn't look so sweet after that
they aren’t trading morrow and turiaf just for headcase JR
I really also think we can somehow trade for Okafor.
Basically targets teams that are not competitive and their big men are overpaid/ have long ass contracts. But here’s the dice: a fully healthy CP3 could make a difference of course, and the Hornets have to be encouraged from Phoenix Suns – Amare Stoudemire relationships. After deciding to keep him, they got better as a team and are now in WCF. I think they will not trade Okafor, keep him and see how it goes. If they still struggle, they can always trade him at trade deadline.
But we Nugget fans have to be encouraged by the TMac trade… how Houston got a lot in that one deal for an expiring contract. We can get a lot for KMart.
I also agree we can essentially forget Gasol and Noah now… those guys have become the pieces of cornerstones of their franchises.
Andris Biedrins was in a horrible slump… I remember he played a horrible game vs us… missing point blank shots. His confidence took a hit.
Look for those playoffs teams who flame out of playoffs too. If the Cavs beat the Celtics, will C’s consider trading Kendrick Perkins? I always like his defense in the paint.
Or that beast Carl Landry. I read somewhere people are afraid when they play him… it has to be somewhat true. This guy is a beast and has a voracious appetite for rebounding. His game inside is just constant banging and people shy away from him. I doubt Kings trade him though.
by SnakefromHell on May 10, 2010 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions
Have you seen Okafor's career progression?
He’s gotten worse every single season since his rookie year, and all the stats (both basic and advanced) indicate that. Defensively, he’s rather slow-footed, and offensively he can’t hit outside of 5 feet, and clogs up the point in New Orleans. He hasn’t played well with Chris Paul because he works much better in a traditional half-court set, and the Nuggets (with Chauncey and Lawson) aren’t going to be a half-court team any time soon. I’ll pass on that. Do we need a traditional center? No. What we really need is a guy like Horford or Noah: Sure, they might not have the size of classic centers, but they make up for that in speed and do the same stuff centers do. I’m certain that a Nene+Horford combo, while not big, can succeed. The best-case scenario is Jason Thompson + Nene. Jason Thompson covers up Nene’s weaknesses, and vice versa. Seriously. Think about it. Sure, he goes into random slumps at random times, but it’s not like Kenyon, Nene, and Bird don’t do that too.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
Emeka Okafor is the worst contract in the NBA, Arenas withstanding
There is no way in hell getting Okafor makes us better.
Quitter's People United: Member #19
David Lee
Is never mentioned around here as a possible big to look at. Why is that? He is a UFA if I recall and NY is looking to score big with Lebron/wade/bosh etc. Lee will command about 10-13mil next year would be my guess. I dunno much about sign and trades it would be worth looking into!
Quitter's People United Member #27.5
The Knicks will renounce the rights to Lee so that they can get an extra 7 million in cap space
So unless we pony up something rather ridiculously good, they are going to renounce him, and since we’re so far above the luxury tax (never mind the fact that we’re around $20,000,000 – $22,000,000 above the salary cap), we can’t sign him.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
Not true
If we get rid of Kmart and JR contract we would have the money. If SK wants to spend some dough that is
Quitter's People United Member #27.5
KMart & JR's money count after 2011, not this offseason
The only way (and it is possible) that the Nugs could end up with Lee is if the Knicks don’t get the 2 FA they want. They may choose to reload for next year’s FA class.
If the Knicks decide to do that, they would be verrrry interested in KMart’s & JR’s contracts.
The downside is the Nugs may cutting their own throats by making that trade with the Knicks. The FA the Knicks likely would throw all that money at in 2011 would be the Nugs own Melo!
"Maxie Miner Rules"
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
if you win next season =
not a problem
#26 - Quitters Unite!!!
It was on company property, with company property. So, double jeopardy, we're fine.
I like the joke about Ivy League girls
I went to MIT and it is even worse lol. As an ardent Nuggets fan, I am definitely not panicking for this offseason. I think Heath pointed out we may get noone in return. We can also use our non-guaranteed contracts to go after guys that are seldom used on their teams to make our team a lot better.
We can also wait for the off-season to pass, play well in the regular season and get our pick of the mill of centers from teams that are economically strapped and not performing well. This is the best time for us Nuggets fans. I feel this is the best legitimate chance (because we will have a skilled post player most likely) we have depending on Karl’s status.
Let us not forget
that the Nuggets are in this current “wait for another team’s castoff” position because they did virtually nothing last summer. Not getting a true center in return for Marcus Camby….and then feeding everyone a line of bull about Nene being a guy that can only get better has left us in the untenable position to be beggars.
I understand that Heath has faith in the FO….but my faith has been dwindling since last off season. Particularly because no one knows WHO will be running the team.
"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2
"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple
Quitter's People United Member # 78
This is such an overreaction...
I don’t think that you understand that this team was better than the team that made it to the WCF last year. We just got unlucky with injuries at the worst time of the year. It’s pretty obvious our front office didn’t see value in any of the bigs out there last summer (we would have had to grossly overpay) and hoped that we could make it through this season and make a run with some good luck with injuries.
We had a great offseason last summer and getting AAA and Ty Lawson were absolutely brilliant moves.
Your faith will be restored next year when we sign an underrated big, who probably isn’t on the list above, we patch up the hole of big depth and add a little bench scoring, and we are right in it next year.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
by chantech on May 10, 2010 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
you misread my post
I KNOW the Nuggets are good. But if we are reduced to getting a scrap heap big in “free agency” then how is that and upgrade over Nene or Kmart? Or even Petro?
I don’t have faith that the FO will do what it takes to bring in a difference maker. The Nuggets need a low post guy who can make a difference, not some scrub who just happens to be tall. If that makes sense.
In other words….we need an upgrade over Nene if we are going to make a trade. If it’s not out there then why make a deal? That kinda sucks because I’m seriously worried about Melo not sticking with the team if the FO does nothing again.
"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2
"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple
Quitter's People United Member # 78
All I'm saying is the only person who's guaranteed the door is JR
Otherwise….I don’t see the FO making a deal if it’s not an upgrade over Nene at center.
"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2
"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple
Quitter's People United Member # 78
i dont think we're far off
imo, we just need to get rid of JR, get more depth in the frontcourt then make a commitment to play D. we can go and get bosh, but if we dont D or rebound, we’ll still be making early exits in the playoffs.
its up to our coaches to extend the rotation to greater than 8 players; and force the team to play D.
let's go nuggets! who u wit?
You won't do better than Nene in FA...
The point is there’s a lot of guys out there who the general public would consider a scrap heap guy who are actually big upgrades over KMart and Petro. Think Chuck Hayes type guys who bring defense and rebounding.
I’m not really sure why this mob mentality hate on Nene started but it’s hard to upgrade Nene when he’s one of the top 5 guys at his position in the Western Conference!
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
by chantech on May 10, 2010 7:08 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Looking around
We’re not gonna steal somebody away that’s any better or consistent than Nene. You’re right, Chantech, it just ain’t happenin’.
by Artimus Mangilord on May 11, 2010 9:09 AM MDT up reply actions
No, they weren't a better team
Where would such an underrated big exist? There is no such thing because every team is looking for one.
When the Nugs signed Bird as a FA in the 2008/2009 season that was no surprise. The entire league knew about him, but nobody would touch him because of his drug history. The Nugs were his only option.
There is no good time for injuries. Every team gets injuries. If the FO doesn’t plan for it and prepare for it they have failed.
Every to-do you listed are the same to-do’s needing to be done last year at this time. The FO did nothing and the fear is the FO will do nothing again this year.
Lawson is a nice pickup but there’s no stop the presses great accomplishment in that move. The Nugs are supposed to be drafting a rookie every year but refuse to because they don’t want to spend the money; which translates to a team with a overly high payroll and no depth.
"Maxie Miner Rules"
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
I disagree completely...
What objective evidence do you have that this team was worse than last year’s team? Please don’t say “last year’s team made it to the WCF and this one didn’t” because I’m going to bring up the sample size short term luck argument. This year’s team was vastly superior to last year’s team.
There are many underrated bigs – we’ve mentioned a few already in this thread. The majority of Andrew’s list is overrated bigs. Shaq in recent years is a great example of overrated big. Dallas had no problems identifying Hayward. Houston had no problems identifying Chuck Hayes. San Antonio identified DeJuan Blair. I could go on and on and on. The point is there are ways to identify players who bring things to the table like rebounding and defense…things that don’t show up in box scores. There’s probably 3 or 4 guys buried on someone’s bench who will be next year’s Afflalos and Sefaloshas. Those are the guys who we should be targetting and who, I have complete faith (I know a lot of you don’t), that our front office will find because…well, they’re really competent.
The front office can only address so many things in the offseason, especially with limited salary resources. To say they didn’t try to address the problem is pretty ignorant. I think they couldn’t a find a combination of a good asset at a reasonable price last year.
We could sign Rudy Gay to a max contract, but that’d be a pretty horrible way of addressing a problem. It’s like the teams who miss out on Bosh, BronBron, and DWade and knee jerk sign Joe Johnson to a max deal. Luckily, we don’t have a front office that does that…although many fans would prefer that we do that.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
by chantech on May 12, 2010 3:41 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
last year vs. this year
You’re more up on stats than I am, so tell me if I’m wrong, but weren’t the team defense statistics consistently stronger last year than this year? Anyway it seemed like last year the Nuggets managed to win some games with defense, whereas this year, not so much.
I do agree that this year’s roster was better than last year’s. Disappointing that the defense wasn’t stronger and consistent.
by ParkHillNative on May 12, 2010 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Here is the comparison to last year's team...
I’ve listed OE and DE and also Dean Oliver’s 4 factors.
2008-2009 Nuggets
Offensive Efficiency: 110.4
Defensive Efficiency: 106.8
Efg% Offense: .509
TOV% Offense: .127
ORR: .261
FT/FG: .290
Efg% Defense: .495
TOV % Defense: .138
DRR: .724
FT/FG Def: .251
2009-2010 Nuggets
Offensive Efficiency: 111.8
Defensive Efficiency: 107.5
Efg% Offense: .512
TOV% Offense: .142
ORR: .275
FT/FG: .290
Efg% Defense: .485
TOV% Defense: .141
DRR: .717
FT/FG Def: .259
This year’s Nuggets were better offensively and slightly worse defensively. But, the net difference was they were a bit better offensively than they were bad defensively…so net net, the team was better. Keep in mind that the numbers are a little misleading because they were better until KMart got injured and Karl couldn’t coach. Also, we had way more injuries this year than last year…Lawson, Melo, CB1, KMart, Bird. When we were healthy, we were really, really good.
Our 2010 version turned the ball over less and forced slightly less turnovers, was way worse on the offensive boards, slightly better on the defensive boards, got to the line about the same, and fouled way too much on defense, although less than last year (Dahntay Jones effect).
Point differential, we were way better, and Pythagorean wins would indicate that we were better than last year.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
yeah up til the All-Star break
the Nuggets were the 2nd best team in the west and had the L*kers in their sights.
by Melo'sPersonofSeattle on May 12, 2010 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions
You forgot Chris Kaman
The Clippers are trying to build around Blake Griffith, and Kaman might be expendable.
by airchibundo507 on May 10, 2010 11:04 AM MDT reply actions
When it comes to free throw shooting,
Biedrins makes Shaq look like Mahmound Abdul-Raouf.
by ParkHillNative on May 10, 2010 11:26 AM MDT reply actions
Oh, and speaking of terrible FT shooters, Chuck Hayes is a team option for this year. That guy is one of the best low post defenders in the league even though he’s undersized… he gave the Lakers bigs all kinds of problems. Not exactly starter material, but having that guy off the bench as a hustler and a defensive presence would be great… Houston is probably thinking the same thing though and will just lock him up with the $2.3 mil team option…
by Stumbleweed on May 10, 2010 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions
There's no way in hell the Rockets let this guy go...
I agree though, if we could get him, that’d be pretty awesome. I disagree that you can’t start him…he’d be way better than Kmart and I’d start him over Kmart in a heartbeat.
Great rebounder and defender. He also only takes efficient shots.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Chuck Hayes leads the league in charges taken
His boxscore production is unimpressive, but his intangibles are off the charts.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
Oh, so he flops?
Or is this legitimate “taking charges”
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 10, 2010 6:24 PM MDT up reply actions
It's legitimate...
Well managed teams find a way to understand things that are undervalued and rate players who possess these “intangibles” higher than badly managed teams.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Look at the Rocket's roster...
Most of their players are in the top 10 in the league at their position for charges taken. It’s pretty cool when you can average 2 or 3 more possessions per game due to taking charges.
That’s what I’m saying though, we don’t need a guy who produces box score stats. We need a guy to provide quality, efficient minutes. A guy who can help us out on the boards and play defense while not being a total void on offense.
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Kaman would be SICK if we weren’t such a quick team. Honestly it would probably take a bit of a coaching change or a basic philosophy shift to accommodate a guy like that. But someone like him would probably be the difference between the Nuggets getting deep in the playoffs and not, since the game often slows down in the post-season.
I like Haywood/Perkins for defense only.. we’d need to move K-Mart and keep Nene for that one to be good in my eyes though, otherwise K-Mart + either of those guys = no big man offense.. Landry would be great, but it seems like the Kings would need to get blown away with something to trade him, as he’s playing very well and was the catch of that Kevin Martin deal by a long shot.
I’m not a Dalembert fan at all really, but he can be had easily since he’s kinda been in the doghouse in Philly and is an expiring contract just like K-Mart ($12 mil). He’d be a big size upgrade, and pairing him with Nene would give us a pretty massive frontcourt… he’s good defensively and can hit the mid if he’s open (similar to Nene). Just another thought…
phoenix suns model
one year ago denver was in the western conference finals and phoenix did not make the playoffs. addition by subtraction or more is less and less is more. they got rid of shaq and bought out the players they got in return. (ben wallace and sasha pavlovic) two things turned things around for the suns. first was defense and second was a bench that played well together. suns cap number is about $77 million. take away the buyouts they are paying about $64 million. moral of the story money is a nice thing to have but does not insure success. instead of biedrins there is an unrestricted free agent clone in aaron gray. there is a sign and trade possibility with the bobcats. earl smith for tyrus thomas and stephen graham. mike jordan drafted kwame brown with the 1st pick of the draft. jordan should be up for the challange with smith. the end of the bench can become an upgrade as well. there is petro, malik allen and anthony carter that can be replaced. aaron gray for petro, hakeem warrick for malik and a younger but experienced point guard for ac. keep nene at center and do NOT play him at forward. have a 2 player rotation at center with andersen. the key is getting a big for smith, a bench that plays well as a unit and better defense. according to coach popovich the difference with phoenix was their defense. before they could get any shot they wanted. now the suns can defend.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
The Suns have more desirable players to play with than the Nuggets
If you were an UFA, would you rather play with CB1, Melo and Nene or Nash, Hill and A’m’a’r’e? I think that wing players and bigs, would chose to play with Nash, Kidd, D-Will, CP3, over Billups. That’s probably why the Suns were able to re-sign Grant Hill, and sign Channing Frye last summer.
"I know the game of basketball is one-on-one (oriented), but the pain of beating a defense by the pass — it confuses and frustrates the defense more than just going by a guy one-on-one." George Karl
Quitter's People United member # 5286
grant hill stayed with phoenix because
he would be a starter. playing in denver he would be competing for minutes with melo and smith. frye played at university of arizona and this was a chance for him to return to arizona. looking at the roster there was amar’e and lopez.. being a starter was not a consideration for frye at the time he signed. suns roster looks to be set for the immediate future. there are 2 factors for any player . how much money will they get paid and how much playing time. linas kleiza was not going to start and denver was not going to give him a second chance to be paid $6 million per year. pay any player enough money and give them playing time and they will be glad to overlook who the point guard is. the only exception is if there is a great chance of winning a championship.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
And the Suns offered to pay more than the Nugs
The Phoenix model is a good model; but the Nugs refuse to follow it because the refuse to do whatever it takes to make a winner.
Following the Suns model, here’s the Nugs golden opportunity to demonstrate their committment. Like the Suns trading Shaq, the Nugs trade KMart to cut cost & bring back younger, healthier, cheaper players who contribute immediately.
The key to what the Suns did isn’t adding players or cutting cost or any of that rhetoric. The Suns knew they had to make a change and were decisive about it and did it. That’s what the Nugs need to do and refuse to do.
"Maxie Miner Rules"
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
no kidding the suns paid more money for grant hill
$3 million for a 37 year old player with a history of injuries that exceeded kmart. so much for your rhetoric about getting players that are younger and healthier. do not forget hill plays the same position as melo. over pay for a 37 year old player with a long history of injuries that plays the same position as one of the best players in the nba. why don’t you give it a rest and quit being a sore loser. i am right and you are wrong. dallas spent 27 million more than denver and they were eliminated in the 1st round just like denver. spurs were swept by a team that spent less money. the only free agent phoenix brought in was channing frye at $2 million and jarron collins at $1.1 million. you need to take a basic course in math and a new calculator.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
Amar'''''''''''''''''e is such a cocky, annoying person
He’s like Paul Pierce on the “damn it dude, just shut up and play, and control your ego in the process” scale
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
+1
This is a smart post. Thank you for mentioning Aaron Gray. Here’s a guy who brings the things we need and who we can probably get on the cheap.
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The Suns and Nuggets trip to the Western Conference has been eerie similar, but Phoenix will have to make a decision this offseason about whether to overpay to keep their players or go for cheaper players. Amar’e is going to demand the Max (which he doesn’t deserve, unless he brings Nash with him) and we all know what happens when big man get the Max the injury bug starts happening. Frye is opting out and will want to get paid and my boy Louis Amundson is a free agent and he should get paid.
Aaron Gray's only defensive contribution is clogging up the paint for the other team
Gani Lawal is like a younger, quicker Reggie Evans with offensive skills. Trust me, that’s a good thing. He may never be a good starter, but he’ll be a great 3rd big off the bench.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
I don't know too much about Gani Lawal...
But I’ll look into him.
The funny thing is good defense consists of 2 things in the NBA: defending the 3 and defending the paint. If you look at the best in the paint defenses in the league (LAL and ORL) they have guys who just take up space in the middle. Obviously DHoward does a bunch of things but Gortat, Odom, Bynum and Gasol just stand there with their hands up and clean up the boards.
I think Gray would be fine in that regard.
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Emotional Attachment
I am way guilty of this, but the one thing any fan needs to be careful of is becoming too emotionally attached to the players on a team. Do we want the Nuggets to win a title, or this group of players? Sure, it would be great if these guys who we root for won the title, but wouldn’t we be even more ecstatic if the franchise won?
For me it would be bittersweet if we unloaded half the team in order to win, but I guess I’d get over it by the victory parade.
That said, I don’t think Malik, Graham, Balkman, AC or even JR at this point would be missed by me. Nene I could take or leave. Petro grew on me this year, and would be a good 13th man. If Old-Man Andersen can get back into shape and look less like a van-cruising perv I’d be happy to see him next season, and hopefully the coaches play him for short spurts like they did two seasons back.
Hmmm… After reading this post I guess I would be ok unloading half the team. I guess I did kind of forget about Najara and Camby pretty quickly.
by MattressKing on May 10, 2010 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions
i do not think you get rid of half the team
the point i was trying to make is denver has all kinds of options. it does not have to involve major moves or huge amounts of money.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
It doesn't have to be huge amounts of money
But it has to be a major move. Standing pat was going to fail and did fail.
JR didn’t grow up
KMart got a major injury, again
The overly thin core players ran out of gas in the playoffs due to lack of depth
None of those issues were related to Karl’s injury.
All of these issues could’ve been offset by a decisive investment in the team depth.
That means getting a legit 3rd big man (play Bird as the 4th), getting another legit shooter; upgrading depth overall. Just the first two pieces alone would’ve put the Nugs at 10 deep or better.
"Maxie Miner Rules"
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
major moves and decisive investment in the team depth
worked great for dallas and san antonio. so far so good for cleveland against the celtics. i never mentioned anything about KARL’S INJURY. when reality, facts and stats do not back up your continued stream of nonsense JUST MAKE UP BULLSHIT!
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
Do you realize that if we traded JR for TT and Stephen Graham
We would be the first team in NBA history to have twin brothers at the same time. I REALLY like this idea. I think it would mess the other team up badly. Plus if Stephen has half the atitude that Joey does on the court defensively, they could be a 2 man recking crew on D.
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by The U.N. Fab Five on May 10, 2010 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Is it too late to try to get Robin and Brooke Lopez?
I think I’d rather have those twins…or Luis Scola and Chris Kaman.
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the van arsdale twins
dick and tom played for the suns in 1976-77. it was the last year both played in the nba.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
Thoughts
Keep Nene, pick up legit center (I’m still pro Haywood). Ditch JR, pick up a spot up shooter or two with a good attitude…maybe Tebow can shoot the three.
Ditch JR, pick up a spot up shooter or two with a good attitude
Steve Novak from the Clippers is a UFA this summer. 6’10 208 lbs pure spot up shooter
"I know the game of basketball is one-on-one (oriented), but the pain of beating a defense by the pass — it confuses and frustrates the defense more than just going by a guy one-on-one." George Karl
Quitter's People United member # 5286
Mike MIller
Bring in another Florida star, I’m not sold on Haywood (he has terrible hands) and has the childish attitude that our entire team had last year. I want Big Ben, his attitude is exactly what we need.
Ben Roethlisberger?
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
I tihnk he meant Ben Wallace
Roethlisber is a QB for the Steelers, a winning franchise. :]
What Would Brian Boitano Do?
Joe Pavelski IS God!
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
Roethlisberger
I can’t believe I just spelled his name wrong. :[
What Would Brian Boitano Do?
Joe Pavelski IS God!
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
Are you really still a Roethlisberger fan after everything that he's done
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 10, 2010 6:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Of course.
Why wouldn’t I be? Because he treats women like sh*t? That’s not my problem. He’s my retarded QB.
What Would Brian Boitano Do?
Joe Pavelski IS God!
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
Well he seems like a pretty bad person
I mean, I’m biased; I’ve disliked him ever since the Hawks lost back in 06. The fact that he’s done all this stupid shit off the field only makes it easier to dislike the guy.
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 10, 2010 6:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Good list...
But I don’t think we’ll go for any of those guys (assuming Hayward gets paid). The reason why is most of those guys score points, and if anything is overvalued in the NBA it’s scoring. The Nuggets don’t need their new big to score, all they need is a guy who can rebound well, play defense, shoot efficiently when he does take shots, and provide depth.
The nice thing is the traits I listed above are undervalued, and teams with bad front offices are notoriously bad at finding these guys, while teams with smart front offices are good at finding these guys.
Also, the Lakers with Nene would be unstoppable…again, I’m not sure everyone here understands how good he is. He destroys Bynum every single time.
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I agree about Nene and Bynum
I would never trade Nene fro Bynum. If you guys think Nene is soft, wait until you get a load of Bynum. Bynum sucks. Nene is much better straight up.
Quitter's People United: Member #19
Bynum is a 7'1", 300 pound pillow
Except he actually tries to be tough, and miserably falls short. Nene, on the other hand, admits that he’s a “gentle giant” despite his size. Plus, Bynum seems to be annoying as hell.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
Not Bynum!
I would only say yes to Bynum if his mentor Kareem Abdul-Jabbar came with him and played instead of Bynum. Kareem is probably injured less. And since you seem to be confusing lack of character with weed smoking then I guess Warkentien wouldn’t mind having Kareem.
One last guy you forgot, he’s only 6’9 but he’s a bully in the paint. I’m talking about Antoine Walker. I think we could pick him up for league minimum. Mostly kidding on this one.
But, but...
ANTOINE WALKER IS ALWAYS GOOD FOR SEVEN BRICKED THREE POINTERS A GAME! And he’ll be sure to brick 10 four-pointers a game if Stern ever introduces a 4-point shot!
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
You follow Kupfer on Twitter huh?
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
DeAndre Jordan
Here’s a guy that I haven’t heard mentioned who would instantly make us way better.
1. He’s undervalued.
2. He’s not getting paid much.
3. He plays for an organization that’s pretty stupid that would trade him away not knowing what they have.
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Here's another guy who will probably be cheap...
Drew Gooden
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David Lee is also a free agent...
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Jordan
The Nuggets tried to get him at trade deadline, but the Clippers are really high on him. I’m a D-Good fan, the dude has the knucklehead attitude that Birdman has, but he is a damn good rebounder.
I like the DeAndre Jordan idea
I thought I remembered him ending the season in the doghouse over there. If we gave them JR and took back a contract they don’t want (and possibly another contributor), this might work, especially if they sign a max free agent.
Quitter's People United: Member #19
The Clipps probably wouldn’t have much interest in JR, given that they have Eric Gordon, who does what JR does, only better and cheaper. they might want him for the bench if Rasual Butler is gone, but it seems like they’d probably just re-sign him since he played well for this this year.
I’d love to see us get Travis Outlaw for our bench actually — he’s a free agent and provides enough size to play the 4 in stretches and can definitely finish at the rim and hit threes.
Good ideas with Gooden and Jordan
Although I suspect Jordan will be tough to pry away, even from the Clippers. Gooden…well, hopefully there isn’t much competition for an old guy whose primary skill is rebounding.
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 10, 2010 6:29 PM MDT up reply actions
If we are going to upgrade our frontcourt
we need a guy who can at least do 2 of 3 things: rebound consistently, protect the basket, or become our second/third option post scorer.
We don't need a FC upgrade..
We need good, solid FC depth that does what you mentioned above.
I don’t think anyone would say that this team’s problem was scoring…
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by chantech on May 10, 2010 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
We need another guy like Kenyon Martin who’s hopefully taller than Nene. Jason Thompson is decent offensively, average but has improved since his college days and is still improving defensively, and can rebound and is a decent passer too.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
Bench
In my opinion I don’t think the lack of big man is our problem, it is the lack of consistency coming from our bench. Like Andrew said there is a dearth amount of big man in the League and the Suns second unit is proof as to how important a bench is.
How many times did we lose due to the lack of production from the bench? And it even got worst when K-Mart went down and we had to depend on Johan ‘Francisco Elson-reincarnated’ Petro and Malik ‘30 going on 40’ Allen. When they traded for Allen, how many of us said ‘WTF’?
I think the main thing we need to upgrade is our depth, especially in the front line. Get a better big (preferably younger) coming off the bench and replace JR. And if it doesn’t work, trade K-Mart and Nene at the trade deadline and than start rebuilding.
Get a better big (preferably younger) coming off the bench
Why isn’t Petro a reasonable option off the bench in addition to another cheap big to add depth? He’s young, I think we can sign him for cheap, he hustles, stepped up mostly when he was given the opportunity… what more are you looking for in a backup big? Give the guy limited minutes on a regular basis and we have a reasonable body to spell our starting bigs.
by Artimus Mangilord on May 10, 2010 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions
How about a big that can play
Petro is absolutely terrible, why do people keep drinking his Kool-Aid? He makes Birdman look smart. He has the worst hands in the NBA (Elson may have been worst), he has zero post moves and while he is a good defender he fouls too much because he is out of position.
Petro is pretty bad and starting him over a full season is probably not a good idea
But he is useful as a backup. Big body, six fouls, etc. etc. He’s cheap. He knows his limitations offensively (i.e. not jacking up jumpers a la KMart). He’s useful. Not good, but useful.
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by Uh on May 10, 2010 7:06 PM MDT up reply actions
The funny thing...
Is Petro is getting better…and by next year could be a good 4th big option. I actually liked his play at the end of the Jazz series.
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How?
I’m curious what has he done to get better? When given the opportunity, Petro had four fouls in 20 minutes and five fouls in 15 minutes – mostly due to him not knowing where to position himself.
Synergy sports allows you to buy a subscription and watch any NBA play...
If you’re interested, watch how horrible Petro was for most of the regular season. I don’t have time to run the stats from the different points in the season right now but he was dropping balls, throwing up horrible shots, not rebounding.
At the end of the year, and during the playoffs, he was taking better shots, more of a force on the boards, and playing better defense. He was actually an above average rebounder at his position, and a better rebounder than a lot of the guys listed above by Andrew.
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He’s still dropping passes and what better shots was he taking, a hook shot that is an airball or a 20-foot jumper (both of which were attempted in the Jazz series)? I’m not sure how you can say he is an above average rebounder for a Center position, I might give you average.
I have no issues with them bringing Petro back at similar price and playing time, but he has done nothing to prove to the Nuggets that they can give him consistent minutes. He doesn’t bring consistent effort and gets in foul trouble to easily.
Agree that he's improved and could come into play next year
Can’t see him progressing much beyond 3rd or 4th big role though.
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by Uh on May 11, 2010 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Absolutely terrible???
He’s not bad on offense for his role. He doesn’t turn the ball over and doesn’t force ill-advised shots. He hustles for offensive rebounds, too. On defense, at the moment he is our best big. His pick-and-roll defense and perimeter coverage put our other bigs to shame (though a healthy KMart is better).
by airchibundo507 on May 10, 2010 9:50 PM MDT up reply actions
disagree on pick and roll and perimeter defense
petro started against david west. west scored 30 points. he had 14 points in the 3rd quarter scoring 6 point in a row at one point. he has a problem with fouls. i would NOT call him absolutely terrible. players do have trouble with petro’s length inside.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
C'mon...that's only one example
How did West score? Was it from isolation or through pick-and-rolls? What kind of looks was West forced into? Good defense can be overshadowed by better offense.
by airchibundo507 on May 11, 2010 12:42 AM MDT up reply actions
David West isn't good at offense...
He just takes a lot of shots.
To be fair though, Petro shouldn’t have been matched up against West.
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Disagree
He is not that good of a defender, whether it is helping or one-on-one. I watched him workout with Brian Butch and Coby Karl before Game 5 and they both schooled Petro. Butch shot jumpers over him and than drove and dunked on him, even Karl took him into the paint. And these are two D-Leaguers.
LOL at this statement...
So you saw 2 shooting guards or small forwards run circles around a guy who’s a center???
Marcus Camby is considered a good defender, right? Whether this is true is debateable. If you put those guys out there against Camby they’d shoot jumpers over him and run around him too.
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petro easily outplayed birdman during the stretch run
birdman is old and injury riddled. Nobody knows if he’ll ever regain the form of his contract year. Petro, while clumsy, played pretty decent D at times and has some nice post moves. Is he a starter? Obviously not, but he’s young and seems to remain healthy. He can definitely provide quality minutes as the 4th or possibly the 3rd if he can improve.
I agree
Millsap ran circles around Bird. In that fourth quarter stretch before we completely lost composure in Game 6, Bird gave up three straight AND-1s to Millsap. That’s what lost us that close game.
From what I’ve seen of Petro, he is great at hedging the ballhandler on pick-and-rolls and even better at recovering onto his man while cutting off any passing lanes . That is far better than the pick-and-roll coverage displayed by KMart, Nene, and Bird throughout that first round series. Our main bigs have never been able to guard the pick-and-roll effectively. That’s why we used to switch.
by airchibundo507 on May 11, 2010 12:48 AM MDT up reply actions
LOL at this statement too...
“Birdman is old and injury riddled”. So he got 1 year older than the previous season, just happened to have to deal with injuries, and now it’s because he’s old?
Injuries are mostly…wait for it….luck. Unless you get to a certain # of minutes in the NBA, then you have “old wear and tear injuries” like KG, Duncan, Kobe. These usually manifest themselves in knee problems.
Birdman’s injuries are what you call bad luck.
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I think Nuggets fans (myself included)
Sometimes forget that Bird’s only played 2 full seasons here. It seems like we’ve all entered that mindset of, oh he’ll be here when he’s 35. You know what I mean? Tough to explain
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by Uh on May 11, 2010 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I get it...
I wasn’t on board with the length of contract we gave him…“what, you’re paying that much to a guy who’s game relies on athleticism into his mid 30s???”
I’m sure we’ll see the same Birdman, maybe a little less athletic, this season after he heals up.
I mean, we’re hating on a guy who busted his ass during the playoffs, played through a sprained ankle, an injured wrist, who knows what else.
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In fact...
This statement would be more accurately used to describe KMart than Birdman…
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If I remember correctly
Bird doesn’t have a history of getting seriously injured like K-Mart or Nene. He’s only had surgery on his thumb, and that was back when he first played for the Nuggets.
I wouldn’t call Bird “Old and riddled” either, but he slowed down this year.
It’s funny. After the Nuggets lost to the Lakers, we were saying that Bird needed to buff up. He does that and it effects his game entirely. Now, we want him to lose weight. I don’t think he should have gained any weight, but he needs to get back into shape.
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
K-mart was having a career season
until he went down with that knee. birdman was ineffective the whole season. held down by knee tendonitis from the beginning. the other injuries were ancillary. hopefully k-mart can return to form next season as he clearly didn’t have everything for the playoffs. Obviously nothing is certain with either of them.
Some injuries may be luck but knee tedonitis is something that tends to linger and never really go away. Some players handle it better than others.
denver has a major issue with basketball IQ
petro is not the only player lacking in that department. this is my argument for aaron gray. he played 4 years at pittsburg for coach jamie dixon in the big east conference. he is fundamentally sound, has a basketball IQ and is physical. he can excel at things like blocking out, setting picks and defending the pick and roll. consider he is 7’ and 270 lbs. that is a great starting point compared to where petro is right now.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
Aaron Gray is a mega-stiff
He was in college, too. I used to watch him and just laugh at the fact that someone would probably take him in the lottery. I’m thankful to Aaron Gray for making Pitt an easy pick to be upset in my bracket, but I don’t need to see him play for the Nuggets.
Quitter's People United: Member #19
Where is Gray now?
Playing in the D-leagues?
by Artimus Mangilord on May 10, 2010 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Got traded to the Hornets...
…still a total stiff who has shown nothing in the NBA.
The thing about Aaron Gray...
Is that he’s like Steven Hunter. You always want a large big man, but you don’t want a complete stiff that will just make stupid fouls out there.
Petro is just too darn skinny and his arms are just too darn short. He’ll be fine as our 4th big (normally barely plays, but give him 20 minutes per game in case anybody gets injured) going forward…but Birdman is getting old and his contract will be a back-breaker, and we’ll need somebody to replace Kenyon
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
Hunter=Petro
Hunter wasn’t that big of a player, he was about the same size as Petro and they are almost similar players.
I’d rather have Gray than Petro any day. He is smart, good passer. He is a poor-man’s Brad Miller. He’d be a solid 11th or 12th man, but not an ideal backup.
try to project gray in the utah series
with his size and 6 nba fouls he would have made more of a difference in the paint against boozer, milsap and fesenko. he was a 2nd round pick. denver tried to get him and tyrus thomas before the trade deadline. biedrens gets $9 million and brad miller would want mid level pay grade and multiple years. gray would be a low risk. he was looking for $2 million last season and had no takers. training at altitude with steve hess and working on his game with adrian dantley he could have a break out year just in time for the lock out.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
Sign Petro cheap, trade JR for Zaza
Pachulia is 25 and big, put up 12 and 7 as a pre-Horford starter, plays defense. If Joe Johnson leaves, Hawks need JR as sixth man behind Crawford. Hawks throw in draft choice and or cash to even salaries.
Look calmly to unload Kmart’s ball and chain of a contract before deadline. If a better big comes through for Kmart, he starts backed up by Zaza. If not, the worst case is:
Pachulia (28 min) and Petro (20 min) at 5, Nene and Bird at 4, Melo and Joey at 3, AAA and CB at 2, CB and Ty at 1. Nine man rotation with minimum of head cases. Karl could make that work.
Not gonna happen
JR and Crawford are almost identical players, both are chuck-it, me-first players and I think the Hawks are smart enough to just have one of them. I like Zaza, but I’d prefer a Center that can block shots.
I’d prefer more depth at small forward than Joey, he struggles against quicker SF and bigger PF. But he is great against LeBron and smaller PF. We should have used him earlier in the Jazz series.
I'd rather have a Center who can grab at least 12 rebounds a game
I don’t care for the block shots so much. They’re great and all, but rebounding is more important to me.
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
Crawford is terrible...
Also, Joe Johnson is horrible and I want no piece of either of htem on the Nuggets.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
It'd be nice to have another option off the bench...
JR struggled because he was triple teamed this year. JR, Ty, and maybe another guy who can make something happen.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
When was he triple teamed?
Why would a team even consider double teaming him when it’s so easy to force him into a jump shot? JR runs the pick-and-roll to perfection, yet he usually abandons team ball in order to run his patented 1-and-done no-motion bench offense.
by airchibundo507 on May 10, 2010 9:52 PM MDT up reply actions
nawlins and dallas discovered
when melo and or smith are double teamed it disrupts the nuggets offense. they both try and dribble around or through the double team. the defense has a chance to rotate and time comes off the 24 second clock.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god
I understand that
Melo is doubled whenever, but JR’s “double team” is simply good pick-and-roll defense. He is naive enough to try to force his way through the hedging big man over and over again, despite how many times he turns the ball over.
by airchibundo507 on May 10, 2010 11:31 PM MDT up reply actions
A lot of it wasn't even pick and roll defense...
The times we had a lineup that was JR and 4 non scorers, our opponents would just double or triple JR and leave guys open.
Check out these lineup stats: http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2009-2010&id=63
I know the sample sizes are small, but the point is, look how ridiculously good JR was this year when he was playing with a team of first unit guys and then how bad he was when he was the primary scoring option.
For the record, I don’t agree with the trade JR sentiment. It’s not like he’s an immature super star. He’s an immature 6th man…which you can do fine with.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
I don't think the data fits the argument
JR has distinctive roles depending on who he’s playing with. With the bench unit, he is free to shoot as he pleases. With the starting unit, he is mainly a catch-and-shoot player, which is where he is the most deadly. If he decides to create with the starting unit, he is forced to be more cautious and take smarter shots, or else he’ll be yanked for not getting the ball to where it belongs (Melo’s hands). In other words, his shot selection improves when he is playing alongside the starters.
by airchibundo507 on May 12, 2010 1:07 AM MDT up reply actions
We're kind of saying the same thing...
When you don’t have to create shots because everyone is a threat, you get better opportunities and take shots that are more in the context of the game. It’s easier to set your teammates up because everyone has to be defended. This is the inverse AC corollary.
With the starting unit, he can run a pick and roll with Nene, hit Afflalo in the corner for an open 3, or setup at 3 point land instead of creating against 3 or 4 guys.
What I’m saying (and this isn’t my idea, my buddy came up with this) is that what you saw with JR this year is what you saw with Ariza in Houston. He was super efficient in LA because he wasn’t asked to create and took shots in the context of the offense (your argument..but I think it’s the same thing). Whne he was relied on to create offense, he struggled mightily. It’s partly increased usage, it’s partly how they’re used (shot creation), and emphasis and ability to cheat of opposing defenses.
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There was ZERO cutting to the basket when Melo was double teamed nohoops
it was pretty consistent all year. You can’t blame Melo for everything, yes he did try to do alot but the team didn’t cut or move when he got doubled.
It’s a two way street
"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2
"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple
Quitter's People United Member # 78
Alright... my thoughts
Love the JR for Turiaf and Morrow.
Kenyon and his expiring to LAC for Kaman once LAC miss on everyone and sign Rudy Gay or somone liek that to a max contract when they don’t deserve it.
Sign either Novak or Mike Miller. Keep Graham. Let Allen walk, sign Brad Miller to vet min (GK can sway him over here), extend Melo and AAA.
Billups (30 min a game), TY (22 min a game)
AAA (upgrade to 30 min a game), Morrow (18-20 min a game)
Melo (40 min a game), Novak/M.Miller( 15 min), Graham( injury minutes)
Nene( 32 min a game), Turiaf (15 min a game)
Kaman (35 min a game), Bird(15 min a game), B.Miller (15 min a game)
My minutes prob don’t work out but im getting at GK switching it up a bit and taking 5 min here andthere and adding to a player or 2 to save fatigue and injury in which killed us this year.
This roster gives us 2 or 3 if you get B Miler scoring threats off the bench. 5 servicable bigs incase of injury and great size with a variety of skillsets from all of the bigs. Virtually you are replacing Johan with Turiaf, Allen with Miller, JR with Morrow and Novak/M. Miller, Kenyon with nene and Nene with Kaman.
"Don't chase the money, chase the dream"
Quitters People United Member #71
ya the minutes have to add up to 48 for each position... but
i like your ideas… I think that team is better than our current team, they might be worse defensively but the rebounding and hustle will be there… also i see no potential emotional problems
lol i know
give or take a few minutes from players here or there and you’ll get what I’m saying. I disagree with Kaman. He actually has an inside game and is always good for 10 rebounds. Putting Nene on a smaller ie a PF would allow him to establish is 10 foot jumper, grab around 8-10 boards a game which he should be doing and maybe not get oushed around so much in the paint.
"Don't chase the money, chase the dream"
Quitters People United Member #71
by Garrett Olsen on May 10, 2010 5:35 PM MDT up reply actions
You don't want Novak playing 15 minutes a game
However, I don’t see Mike Miller being that good with only 15. He’s been used to playing 25+ his entire career, and I say start the season with him getting 22 or so, then lower it to 14 or 15 by the end to prevent him from injury and to ease him into his new role. Those minutes can come from Afflalo/Melo until then (YOU DO NOT WANT MELO PLAYING 40 MINUTES A GAME! HE’LL BE EXHAUSTED COME PLAYOFF TIME! YOU ALSO DO NOT WANT BRAD MILLER ON THE NUGGETS…AND THAT LINEUP WON’T EVER HAPPEN)
Nene and Kaman on the same team worries me. Kaman traditionally plays like a bigger, slower version of Nene (note how I used "traditionally).
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
I think 15 for Mike is perfect
He’s gettin old and injury prone.
"Don't chase the money, chase the dream"
Quitters People United Member #71
by Garrett Olsen on May 10, 2010 5:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Mike averaged 10 ppg, 6 rpg, and 4 apg in 25.3 minutes per game for the Wizards
Granted, it was the Wizards, but the guy can still ball. AND … he has a good deal of tattoos on him.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
He also started
when Butler was dealt
"Don't chase the money, chase the dream"
Quitters People United Member #71
by Garrett Olsen on May 10, 2010 6:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think people recognize how often Melo gets injured
His games played per season since 2003: 82, 75, 80, 65, 77, 66, 69. Granted the 65 game year was due to the suspension, but still. Particularly in the last couple years, Melo has missed significant time to injury.
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 10, 2010 6:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Open question
What incentive does GS have for taking JR? They already have Curry and Monta Ellis in the backcourt, and Monta plays like 45 minutes a game. Why pick up another shooting guard, who is even less consistent and makes even worse decisions than their current guards?
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 10, 2010 6:33 PM MDT up reply actions
B/c
it’s GS. They are a run and gun, athletic shooting team.
JR fits their 18 win per season style and could spell minutes from Monta off the bench
"Don't chase the money, chase the dream"
Quitters People United Member #71
by Garrett Olsen on May 10, 2010 6:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Um...
Why would Brad Miller come here and be a third big, and why would we sign Mike Miller after trading for Morrow. It’s a good dream, but definitely unrealistic.
depth purposes
and b/c they wanna win maybe? they both are old
"Don't chase the money, chase the dream"
Quitters People United Member #71
by Garrett Olsen on May 10, 2010 8:46 PM MDT up reply actions
it would be great to get Haywood.
But it is unlikely..also Okafor would help us out in the rebounding department but i just can’t get my head around that major contract of his…if we could steal Haywood or Foster then we wenty and got Tyruas homas , i think we would be set
Quitter's People United member #7
Foster's career is over because of injury
Sorry, but “Tyruas homas” cracked me up. But it’s cool. Haywood is already 31, and we need a young big man. Thomas is an interesting case. If GK comes back next season, then I say go for it. But if we get a rookie coach (or near-rookie coach), then I’ll say pass, because we would need a veteran coach like Karl or Brown to help control Thomas.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
Lol
Foster was already just a backup, and then he did something really bad to his back and had to get surgery, and injury-prone backup big men on the wrong side of thirty that get injured usually don’t play another NBA game.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
One potential problem I see is if we get rid of JR
who will replace the scoring off the bench? Do we bring back Kleiza? Because on the bench we don’t have our explosive scorer outside of the occasional burst from Lawson. If we get rid JR I hope we would get a reliable bench scorer to take up the slack.
"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2
"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple
Quitter's People United Member # 78
You don't need an "explosive" scorer
…all you need is guys that can hit threes consistently. Spurs did it for years…take a star or two surround him/them with guys that can defend and hit threes (say 2-3 a game)….you know, stretch the D. The is nothing more deadly in the NBA that a guy that can come in off the bench and knock down the big three…JR is that guy…about 1 every 5 games…that’s the problem.
It also helps to have a couple of durable rebounders that can hammer people when they come in the lane.
I just want a guy who can score 15-20 pts per game
Threes or not.
What Would Brian Boitano Do?
Joe Pavelski IS God!
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
We have Chauncey and Melo that can do that
The Nuggets were the 3rd most efficient offensive team last year, and 5th in pace. They were also a mediocre 16th in the league in defensive efficiency. Doesn’t take a genius to see which of the two is a more pressing problem. AND…we can be Top 10 just by lowering the opponent’s offensive efficiency (or thus improving our defensive efficiency) by two points. That’s not a big deal, but it would have given us a couple more wins.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
I meant on the bench.
I’m sure Ty Lawson can do it, but we need at least one other guy who can score. Bird is only good for dunks and once in a great while, a little jumpshot. A Jamal Crowford kind of guy would be great.
What Would Brian Boitano Do?
Joe Pavelski IS God!
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
Having ensemble scoring is just as good as one 15-20 pt guy,
I’d rather have three efficient bench players who combined score 18 than one inefficient/inconsistent JR who scores 12 on 12 shots.
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 10, 2010 6:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Those statistics
apply to the regular season. In the postseason, JR routinely pulls a disappearing act and Nene is a no-show on the road. CB and Melo can’t carry the offensive burden alone. Our defense is terrible, but if we can just cut the amount of offensive rebounds we give up in half, we would shoot up in efficiency. Offensive boards are almost guaranteed baskets.
by airchibundo507 on May 10, 2010 9:57 PM MDT up reply actions
The postseason is the same as the regular season...
Whatever happens can mostly be explained by small sample sizes and luck, with the exception of a few things.
1. You play better defenses so there aren’t as many easy buckets.
2. You get less foul calls. A lot of the reason why our offense was efficient was getting to the line.
I completely agree with our lack of defensive rebounding. I think that was our biggest problem this year.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
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3. It's usually harder to rely on transition basketball
4. Coaches have time to plan and adjust
by airchibundo507 on May 12, 2010 1:14 AM MDT up reply actions
The Suns seem to be playing transition basketball...
But yeah, point taken. Fast breaks initiators tend to be off missed baskets and playoff teams have more efficient offense which translates into less transition buckets for their opponents.
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What I'm saying is once we give up JR we have to replace bench scoring
not starter scoring. So my preference would be to replace JR with another guard. I’d love it if we went after Reddick….he’s also an adequate defender.
"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2
"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple
Quitter's People United Member # 78
OK, then put Afflalo on the bench so that we can have some off-the-bench scoring
And start JR until we trade him.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
I think JR will be traded in the off season
pretty sure actually. If the reports of the Nuggets players unhappiness with JR are any indication it looks like even the team has had enough of Swish
"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2
"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple
Quitter's People United Member # 78
I hope not
trading JR now would be selling at the lowest possible point. we should hope he plays decently to start next season and make him part of a deadline package. even if he sucks next year, his stock cant get much lower than it is now.
by Rainbow skyline on May 10, 2010 11:58 PM MDT up reply actions
All the top teams in the league understand the value of the 3...
Orlando, Phoenix, San Antonio, Cleveland.
Your statement is accurate (you don’t need explosive scorers) if your team runs a coherent offense and plays as a team. When you play “random basketball” you need talent to score since you’re going 1 on 1 or 1 on 3 a lot.
Anyways, you need the following for what you’re describing: a good penetrating guard (Lawson), shooters, and good set plays. We have 1 of the 3.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
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Remove San Antonio from that group
In past years they definitley incorporated the three ball. Now they have questionable shooters in Jefferson and Hill. Their spacing is limited, which is one of the reasons why they were swept by the suns.
I understand what you are saying though. In order for “random offense” to be at it’s best, you really need proper spacing. Orlando, Phoenix, and (to a lesser extent) Cleveland are almost flawless systems where their iso scorers are surrounded by 3-4 shooters at a time. Things are vastly different in “random” offenses like Atlanta and Denver where there are a max of 1-2 shooters and the shaky perimeter shooting can be exploited.
by airchibundo507 on May 10, 2010 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Just because you have questionable shooters...
Doesn’t mean you don’t understand how valuable a 3 pointer is. Look at how often Ginobli and Hill hoisted up 3’s against Phoenix and you’ll see that they still understand the value of the 3, particularly the corner 3.
They weren’t swept by the Suns because of spacing. They were swept because the Suns applied their strength (run and gun shoot a lot of 3’s) more effectively than the Spurs did (DUncan should have dominated).
The point was that these teams are always by default better because they don’t execute a “random offense” and we shouldn’t execute a random offense. Orlando, Phoenix and SA run very good set plays. Cleveland will lose to Orlando because their offense consists of clearing out for LeBron. Can you imagine LeBron on a team that runs plays???
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Here's what I saw
Every time Duncan received the ball in the post, he saw immediate double teams. Ginboili couldn’t hit his outside shots, so San Antonio’s only outside shooting was pretty much from Bonner and McDyess. On offense,Jefferson floated around on the perimeter for the most part and his defender would sink in. When Jefferson touched the ball, his defender would cut off baseline and dare him to shoot. The spacing just wasn’t there to allow Duncan to dominate. San Antonio’s easiest offense was giving the ball to Parker, pushing the pace, and letting him attack the basket before the defense got set up.
Phoenix has quite a few set plays, but their bread and butter throughout the series was just the pick-and-roll. Nash is too dangerous to leave open, and San Antonio’s bigs weren’t mobile enough to contest Nash’s look and then get back on Amare and Frye. The San Antonio defense was in full-out scramble mode trying to help out , but the Suns’ shooters are too dangerous to even give them semi-contested looks.
by airchibundo507 on May 12, 2010 1:25 AM MDT up reply actions
Here is what actually happened...
Game 6:
SAS – 4 / 11 – 54.6% eFG%
PHX – 10 / 24 – 62.5% eFG%
Game 5:
SAS – 8 / 16 – 75% eFG%
PHX – 15 / 26 – 86% eFG%
Game 4:
SAS – 7 / 18 – 58.4% eFG%
PHX – 9 / 19 – 71.1% eFG%
This was a common theme throughout the series…San Antonio playing Phoenix tough but being unable to keep games close due to Phoenix’s 3 point production. This tells me that San Antonio’s perimeter defense was horrible. You brought this up, and you’re absolutely right…the Spurs devoted too many guys to doubling Nash and the pick and roll and PHX always found the open shooter. The funny thing about this is San Antonio was very good at defending the 3 during the regular season…all the teams in the playoffs were. The second thing this tells me is PHX shot really really hot from 3 point land. I think any team would be hard pressed to beat a team shooting 75 and 80% for the game…and that’s pretty much what PHX did by shooting so many 3s and hitting such a large percentage of them. The only team that can keep up with this sort of 3 point production is Orlando.
Although San Antonio was very efficient on offense (you’re going to win a lot of games shooting as many 3’s as SAS did at that clip), they couldn’t keep up with PHX’s efficiency from 3. Duncan was very good in this series from an efficiency stand point and your assertion that SAS didn’t couldn’t hit a 3 is false.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
The other implication of all of this...
Is that a PHX / ORL finals would be super super interesting and fun to watch. Orlando would win though :)
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
To put all this in perspective...
Even the most efficient jumpshooters shoot ~50%. PHX’s eFG% this series was > 55% and in at least one game, they shot 60% effectively. You’re going to win a lot of games shooting 60% from the field.
Oh, I forgot to mention part of SAS’s problem was that their other players were getting rebounded. Although PHX didn’t have effective bigs, they outrebounded SAS by getting rebounding from everyone. They won’t be able to do this against LA…so it’ll be interesting to see what happens.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
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For the series
Phoenix shot 46.1% from behind the arc. San Antonio only managed a very mediocre 35.9% 3P FG. I never said that San Antonio couldn’t hit a three. I said that they couldn’t knock them down efficient enough to alleviate the paint-packing on Duncan. For some context on those percentages, the Nuggets only shot 35.8% from behind the arc and dealt with somewhat similar spacing issues.
by airchibundo507 on May 12, 2010 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions
Shooting 35.9% from 3...
Is like shooting 53.9% from the floor…especially with how many 3s they took. If you look at 3 point shooting percentage as effective field goal percentage instead of absolute FG%. In absolute terms, it looks bad…OMG the team shot 35%! In effective FG% terms, 35.8% is pretty much better than any other shot you can shoot except for a layup.
Shooting 46.1% from 3 is RIDICULOUS. It’s like shooting 66% from the floor…it’s even more ridiculous when you consider what percentage of shots the suns took that were 3’s.
The Spurs had a bad game 1 from behind the line which dragged their percentage down. Regardless, if you’re shooting 53.9% effective, if you’re not getting layups, you should be shooting more 3’s because you’re never shooting more than 50% from inside the arc.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
I don't care about effective stats
It’s relative. A 35.9% is at best average if not below average from behind the arc. A 53.9% adjusted percentage is the same, relative to other teams’ adjusted percentages. Case in point—-the Suns could collapse on defense and help out on Duncan. The Spurs’ help defenders couldn’t even attempt to help out on the pick-and-roll or else Frye, Dragic, Dudley, Richardson, (insert role player on PHX) would bury a three in their eye.
by airchibundo507 on May 12, 2010 7:48 PM MDT up reply actions
For the record 35.9% puts you in the top 3rd in the league...
It was also consistent with what San Antonio did throughout the regular season. If you’re arguing poor floor spacing lost them the series then you’re arguing that it was their primary weakness all year. I’d contend that it had nothing to do with floor spacing being poor…they hit as many 3’s as they did all season. The Spurs have always had good floor spacing. If your argument is that they weren’t as good all season from 3 because of offseason acquisitions / injuries, then I’d agree with you.
Likewise, Phoenix was burying 3’s on people all year. I didn’t realize that it was this high, but they hit 41% of their 3’s all year or 61.8% eFG. All season, their offense has been setup to either get guys layups or open 3’s…exactly what an NBA offense should look like.
Either way, you’re making my point that San Antonio’s problem in this series was an inability to keep up with the frequency and efficiency at which PHX made 3’s. This problem was compounded by SAS’s inability to defend the pick and roll, and also the Suns shooting abnormally hot from 3.
The right adjustment would have been to play straight up on the pick and roll, essentially conceding it, and staying at home on the shooters.
Also, the Nuggets had a similar problem against the Suns all year…I thought it was the Suns running hot from 3, but the Suns have been too consistently good all year from 3. They, like Orlando, are killing teams with open 3’s.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
You get someone like Morrow
from GS who is lights out from 3 and can create, possibly drive and kick… you’ll be just fine. Think as Morrow as a less athletic yet wayyy more consistent JR Smith with no personal problems.
"Don't chase the money, chase the dream"
Quitters People United Member #71
by Garrett Olsen on May 10, 2010 5:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Dunno
He hurt his arm bad, but it’s not going to derail his career or anything. Bucks are in an interesting position right now, as they can’t afford to spend much, but they have a pretty darn good playoff team right now.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
He's also good at high fiving himself...
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Bogut would be sick...
Milwaukee isn’t going to get rid of him…he was probably the 2nd best center in the east this year.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Rule of Thumb
Don’t pay big guys with a history of back (or foot) problems with one good year under their belt. This includes Boget and maybe even Turiaf.
Sorry Bogut
My spelling is off todai…I mean today.
Bogut has actually been good for a few years
The Bucks won’t ever consider giving him up.
Yep
Whatever the crap has happened to Andris Biedrins this season? In the only Nuggets-Warriors game in which he was healthy, he looked like Nikoloz Tskitishvili, with his airballed jumjper (and blown layups), his ridiculously low FT percentage, and his lack of ability on the defensive end.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
jumpjer...I think nobody on this site can type today
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
Argh *jumper*
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter
Gomes
Ryan Gomes isn’t a bad contract and his remaining years are not guaranteed. Expect him to be cut before july 1, non-guaranteeing his remaining years and making him a free agent.
More Likely
C, Petro
PF, Nene
SF, Melo
SG, AAA
PG, CB
Lawson, Smith, Graham, Anderson, Balkman, (insert couple more players here)
I would be happy with that lineup IF Petro played 30+ mins and bird played 15ish.
Quitter's People United Member #27.5
Just watching LAL-UTA Game
Glad we aren’t Jazz fans like Andrew wants us to be, they look pathetic when they can’t flop their way to a victory. The irony is palpable all the flops Matthews has been trying don’t work on Kobe.
Now I am done rooting for the Lakers. It was painful, but worth it to see that corrupt Jazz team lose. I say corrupt bc they try to flop so much it is shameful.
Go Suns, I hope they catch the Lalers on a lazy streak.
Here’s hoping for a PHX-ORL series. They are the talented teams who deserve to be in the finals we will say if Stern says otherwise.
by JR15 on May 10, 2010 11:10 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Andrew is absolutely consistent in his dislike of the Lakers
Cant say as I blame him. However, the Jazz flopping really turned me and most of the country off. When will people understand that flopping is the opposite of having “tenacity and toughness”… Jerry Sloan gets lauded for having tough teams….but the flopping his teams use (since Stockton and Malone retired) is sickening. Didn’t use to be that way. Remember the days of Mark Eaton? That man couldn’t flop if he wanted to. lol
"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2
"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple
Quitter's People United Member # 78
I never thought I'd be so happy to see the Lakers win
But it bums me out because that could of been the Nuggets going on against the Suns.
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
i was hoping the jazz would get beat
but not swept. this just shows how embarrassing that loss to the Jazz really was.
Sign Petro cheap, trade JR for Zaza
Pachulia is 25 and big, put up 12 and 7 as a pre-Horford starter, plays defense. If Joe Johnson leaves, Hawks need JR as sixth man behind Crawford. Hawks throw in draft choice and or cash to even salaries.
Look calmly to unload Kmart’s ball and chain of a contract before deadline. If a better big comes through for Kmart, he starts backed up by Zaza. If not, the worst case is:
Pachulia (28 min) and Petro (20 min) at 5, Nene and Bird at 4, Melo and Joey at 3, AAA and CB at 2, CB and Ty at 1. Nine man rotation with minimum of head cases. Karl could make that work.
This is a bit drastic, and I'm not sure if it works logistically
But what if we try to pull off a two part deal.
The first would be to deal Nene to Houston for Scola, Battier, and Budinger.
Houston can play Nene at PF if Yao comes back successfully, or is good insurance at the C position if Yao’s feet fail again. There is also a lot of speculation that Houston is in the hunt for Bosh, so Nene could be a valuable trade chip for them going forward.
Denver gets two hustle hard, defensive minded glue guys in Battier and Scola, and a young talent with a good shot in Budinger. Battier could be used interchangeably at the 2 or 3, probably coming off the bench for AAA. He gives vet leadership, the ability to hit the 3, and solid D.
The second deal that would need to be done is trading JR for an athletic banger at the 5. I really like DeAndre Jordan or Jason Thompson, and I think there could be some interest for Mr. Smith from those teams.
So the roster would be (excluding scrubs):
CB / Ty
AAA / Battier / Budinger
Melo / Battier / Grahm
Scola / K-Mart
(Jordan or Thompson) / Bird / Petro
We may lose a bit of explosiveness or tempo, but I think this roster does improve our toughess, defense, effort, and b-ball IQ.
Again, this is purely speculative, pipe dreaming. So, am I smoking something here?
Too Legit to Not Quit, QPU #77
Houston loses way too much in that deal
and given JR’s stock, no way he alone is enough to acquire DeAndre or especially Thompson.
by airchibundo507 on May 11, 2010 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions
We need a big who can stay healthy all year long
Trading for Yao wouldn’t help us out.
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
Yao won't be consistently healthy, and the Rockets know that
Why trade 3 players for one injury-prone player coming off an 87 game season? As insurance? Maybe a three-way with Toronto and Houston…I don’t know how this works. Maybe. Maybe.
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 11, 2010 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree, 3 for one is probably unreasonable
And Yao’s health is a major liability. But regardless of that, he is the face of that franchise, so I think they’ve got to make a go with him. I think Nene would be valuable for Houston because, a) he would be good alongside Yao at the 4, or b) in the event of a Yao injury would be better at the 5 than Scola.
Check the (potential) lineup:
Brooks / Lowry
Martin
Ariza / Hill
Nene / Hayes
Ming / Andersen
As is, Houston is a bit deep at the 3, and Battier is getting a little long in the tooth. I don’t think it’s inconceivable that they make a move to have a dominant frontcourt that also pads their health concerns, while moving some of the log jam at the 3. Their only weakness I see would be at SG, in which case I guess we could see if they have any interest in JR. But that leaves the Nuggets to pursue a big with Kenyon’s contract, and realistically, I can’t see many takers…
Too Legit to Not Quit, QPU #77
Kyrylo Fesenko??
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3205
Seems he is FA this summer….
I think we could get him cheap and I think we should do this ASAP!
""That would leave the Jazz about $9 million to spend in deciding about re-signing free agents Boozer, Wesley Matthews, Kyle Korver and Kyrylo Fesenko without pushing their payroll into luxury-tax territory for the second consecutive season.""
Quitter's People United Member #27.5
Kyrylo-means foul
I’m willing to guarantee that somebody is going to offer Fesenko some money this offseason and than regret it. Same goes with Petro.
Just because he played decently in our series
does not mean he is good. He’s like their version of Petro if Petro were much larger.
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 11, 2010 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Andrew / Nate
What’s your take on brining Petro back? And r=our other FA like Joey, Tacos, and AC?
twitter.com/skitalicious
Quitter's People United Member #13
I know you asked for Andrew / Nate opinion...
But my personal opinion is Petro comes back as a 4th big option and Joey, Tacos and AC probably don’t get resigned.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
what about haslem?
Haslem could possibly be signed for the MLE and has shown a willingness to come off the bench.
Otherwise, I’m pretty sure that JR and the non guaranteed deals for Butch and Coby could net us Bierdins or Okufur . . . but that would entail losing a good deal of future cap flexibility.
Bierdins? What are you smoking? He totally fell off a cliff last year (I think literally)
#26 - Quitters Unite!!!
It was on company property, with company property. So, double jeopardy, we're fine.
Biedrins
If the Warriors what out of Biedrins’ contract so bad why don’t we send JR’s expiring deal and Karl and Butch’s un-guaranteed deals. that works salary wise and we solve our post problem while keepin nene and k-mart
might work
#26 - Quitters Unite!!!
It was on company property, with company property. So, double jeopardy, we're fine.
Why does LeBron
Not look so good when it is the playoffs? They lose by 30 points and home and LeBron is a no show.
Glad we have Melo, would only want Howard or Durant for Melo. Otherwise no deal not even James.
by JR15 on May 11, 2010 9:13 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
wow, I would take LePout for Melo
but the only scenario I see for that would be a drunk GM that just wants to make headlines. LeBron is a facilitator and a scorer, even if you just look at the stats. Plus the refs would give us some respect.
Oh and BTW, his elbow (on his shooting arm) is probably killing him worse than he is letting on. He usually brings it in the playoffs.
#26 - Quitters Unite!!!
It was on company property, with company property. So, double jeopardy, we're fine.
would take Howard for Melo
LBJ, Durant — nah.
by ParkHillNative on May 12, 2010 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions
That's because the Cavs rely on him so much that they believe he'll dig them out of every hole
Their role players look good on paper, but that’s it. This is the second year that Mo Williams is a no-show in the playoffs. IF the Cavs get by Boston, they’re not going to be able to beat Orlando. In fact, neither team will.
By the way, I wouldn’t trade Carmelo for Durant. He’s not a leader. Just a scorer. Dwight Howard is another story.
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
If you reversed Carmelo and Durant in that statement it'd be more accurate..
Just sayin…
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Durant hasn't done anything yet either
I’d say both Carmelo and Durant are in the scorer-not-quite-leader category right now
Quitter's People United: Member 12
by Uh on May 12, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Agreed on the not quite leader thing...
Durant has become a better scorer than Melo (more efficient), and a way better defender, while also rebounding better than Melo.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Are you kidding me?
LeBron is the best player in the NBA….and it’s not even close. He’s way better than Durant and brings more to the table than Howard…
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Yeah
But can he bring it when it counts? I fear he will always need some all-star by him. No one is enough bc maybe he isn’t as good as the league is makin him out to be.
Just saying watch his games and don’t look at his stats and you will see what I am saying.
Not doubting his ability to get to the rim, but he dominates the ball more than any oter superstar. Once he gets into 3 mode he is worse than JR and he is a poor FT shooter to boot.
He is better than Melo, but he is no chosen one and I would never want that drama queen ruining the attitude of the Nuggets.
Unless we want to just win the regular season an lose in the playoffs, I don’t want LePout.
by JR15 on May 12, 2010 8:10 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I liked Lebron
Before his cry baby fit last year. I wouldn’t take him on the NUggets with a 20 ft poll. I don’t want the Media that comes with it. his stats don’t say much as he handles the ball for 99% of CLE play’s so he is bound to get more points/assists/rebounds etc.
I’d take Howard or Durant over him. Though my passion for hating James may have grown so much that I would take Kobe over him…
Quitter's People United Member #27.5
So there's a team 'time of possession' stat
Is there one by player? I’d be curious to see that.
by Artimus Mangilord on May 12, 2010 9:31 AM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, the stat for what you're asking for is called 'usage'.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Thanks
I never focused on the stats beyond the box score much until I joined this blog. Thanks all for raising the collective intelligence here. I love that about this blog.
by Artimus Mangilord on May 12, 2010 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions
"I fear he will always need some all star by him"
So he’s the same as every other super star who ever won a title?
Included in your statement are the following guys: Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
I said the role players suck
I never said that about LeBron. Didn’t you watch the game last night? You know your team is in serious trouble when Shaq is your leading scorer. I kept yelling at my T.V. everytime LeBron had the ball because he wasn’t doing sh*t. He needs a Chauncey Billups kind of guy by his side because Mo clearly isn’t working out.
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
Why does John Elway
Not look so good when it is the Super Bowl? They lose by 30 points and Elway is a no show.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Role players suck?
He has Shaq, Jamison, Williams, West,& Z. All all-stars by the way. He also has Hickson and Powe. Boone should give excuses for LeBron. That surrounding cast was the best in the regular season. It is just when the going gets tough LeBron folds.
What kind of player says he has 3 bad games in a 7 yr career when he hasn’t won anything. Be humble, you are not entitled to anything “King” James. We complain Melo didn’t put it on himself when he lost.
What about LePout? Is he scott free when he claims he is god of basketball, but can’t even be as good as DWade. DWade didn’t have a great supporting cast when he won. Of course the refs helped him, but still he found a way to win.
The only role player that's showing up is Shaq
Everybody else is choking when it matters most. It doesn’t matter how they look during the season.
I haven’t seen anybody else step up during this series. When LeBron struggles, it’s up to people like Mo Williams and Jamison to carry the load and they haven’t done that. Mo can’t even keep up with Rondo.
The Celtics have a better supporting cast, and their freaking dinosaurs out there.
Let me know when Jamison and Mo decide to show up for a game.
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
The role players follow their leader
Your right it shows in the games. When your leader pouts and tries to defend himself instead of taking responsibility, the role player will follow.
They are good players, don’t get caught up in the defending LeBron mantra.
This is equally his fault. As I said he can’t win with any role players unless they are superstars who don’t pout (he already has all-star teammates so no excuse for that). He needs a Howard or Wade, or even Melo. He can’t win without another superstar. Even Shaq can’t do it. LeBron is good but NOT great and that is what it is
by JR15 on May 12, 2010 12:15 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
It must be tough to win..
When the only role player that shows up makes your team worse! They’d be better off starting Z + Varajao.
In all fairness, there might not be a point guard in the league who can keep up with Rondo.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Are we done being results oriented?
Firstly, the players you think are all stars aren’t playing at an all star level. Z and Shaq are playing with forks visibly sticking out of their backs. None of htose guys played at an all star level this year. Put Melo on that team and you’d see how truly horrible that team is.
Now, if you step back and look at his whole body of work, you’ll see that in 2005, he single handedly led his team to within 1 game of the NBA finals.
In 2006, again, with a team that most would say lacked talent led the team to the finals, where they got swept by the Spurs.
Last year, they were within 2 games of going to the finals against a really good Magic team. Again, LeBron carried the load…he had a 49 point game in the first game where I saw him get tired for the first time (his calves cramped up), and there was another game where they shouldn’t have won and he hit a 3 at the end to win it.
Earlier in this series, he had a 38/8/7 game where he shot 14/22 from the floor. If you look at all his games, they’re super efficient.
Doesn’t look like a guy who folds to me. So he disappears in 1 game…it’s also pretty clear that he’s injured (I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he needs surgery on it this offseason). Everyone comes out and says that he always chokes in the playoffs, he doesn’t bring it an pouts, blah blah blah. I’m not sure if you remember how good he was in those each of those series’. He’s done this with a supporting cast that isn’t 1/5th what the Nuggets supporting cast is.
Some other guys you could have said the same thing you’re saying about LBJ at some point in their career: Michael Jordan, Peyton Manning, and my favorite, John Elway.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Kobe did it with Shaq
Ok Shaq does stink, but if you are the best team in the regular season and everybody ha you going to the finals then yeah it is not just the role players, it is the whole team.
Chantech I see why you are on the LeBron bandwagon like everyone else. He is a good player but he is not a great one. He is not the chosen one. The chosen one would win regardless of who is on his team let alone a bunch of old all-stars even though they are all-stars
Yes this league is results based. Otherwise TMac, Dirk, and AI would be in more conversations. It is what it is. I am not going to say it again because I beat this horse down and LeBron keeps proving me right.
He is good but not a King and definitely not the chosen one.
Also let me leave you with this, is there any other star besides Shaq that you want to foul with 5 seconds left and you are down 1 besides LeBron. He always misses one because he is not clutch. That one shot against Orlando should not be unequally weighed to all those shots he missed or all the travels he had in key possessions.
Yes Jordan missed clutch shots and so does Melo, and Kobe, but there is much less doubt when they have the ball in the final seconds than “King” James.
by JR15 on May 12, 2010 1:41 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
You didn't watch the regular season did you?
I can’t tell you how many clutch situations there were where he hit 2 free big free throws, where he hit a game winner, where he scored his teams last 15 points, where he won games by himself. There was a Utah game where he brought them back from down 7 with 1:30 left in the game.
LBJ is on a level that Melo, TMac, Dirk, AI, Kobe the last few years aren’t even close to, and this isn’t me jumping on the bandwagon….whether you watch his games, or you look at the stats. Hes been the best player in the league now for 3 or 4 years. Would you question Michael Jordan’s greatness? You know, the greatest player of all time would win regardless of who is on his team. It took him 6 or 7 seasons to win a title.
Have you ever considered that everyone is wrong? Orlando was the best team in the regular season.
“Also let me leave you with this, is there any other star besides Shaq that you want to foul with 5 seconds left and you are down 1 besides LeBron” Are you trying to be funny?
1. Dwight Howard
2. Tim Duncan
3. Rajon Rondo
4. Pau Gasol
I could list 10 more names but you get the point….
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
He makes his teammates better plain and simple
Mo Williams would not have been an all-star without Labron. It’s just Cleveland has no one to help him at all. They have no other compliments to Labron. Anderson Varajoe, Mo Williams, and Big Z are not the type of players to carry Labron if he’s struggling.
by Melo'sPersonofSeattle on May 12, 2010 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions
This...
Mike Brown also has no idea how to design an offense. The Nuggets problem of playing “random basketball” also applies to the Cavs. That team would be so good with set plays…and if they just didn’t play Shaq at all until the ORL series.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
no doubt, Mike Brown really has no clue
Players like Labron, Melo, Wade, Kobe make their coaches look better than they really are too. Yes, I’m looking at you Phil
by Melo'sPersonofSeattle on May 12, 2010 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Kobe did it with Shaq
Ok Shaq does stink, but if you are the best team in the regular season and everybody ha you going to the finals then yeah it is not just the role players, it is the whole team.
Chantech I see why you are on the LeBron bandwagon like everyone else. He is a good player but he is not a great one. He is not the chosen one. The chosen one would win regardless of who is on his team let alone a bunch of old all-stars even though they are all-stars
Yes this league is results based. Otherwise TMac, Dirk, and AI would be in more conversations. It is what it is. I am not going to say it again because I beat this horse down and LeBron keeps proving me right.
He is good but not a King and definitely not the chosen one.
Also let me leave you with this, is there any other star besides Shaq that you want to foul with 5 seconds left and you are down 1 besides LeBron. He always misses one because he is not clutch. That one shot against Orlando should not be unequally weighed to all those shots he missed or all the travels he had in key possessions.
Yes Jordan missed clutch shots and so does Melo, and Kobe, but there is much less doubt when they have the ball in the final seconds than “King” James.
by JR15 on May 12, 2010 1:41 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I also had this argument well before game 5
LeBron is just proving me right and people are seeing the results.
I do hate criticizing bc I am not actually playing with all the pressure on me so I don’t know what it is like.
The media has placed LeBron on a throne he doesn’t deserve and other top players right now are just as good if not better is all I am saying.
I want to defend Melo because I actually see through LeBron’s struggles that it is not Melo’s fault as we all would like to think. This game is a team sport no matter how much we like to single out certain players.
I am done jumping on a guy when he is already down. Unless he wins a chamionship soon he will always be a good player who is not great and he is more worried about his marketing career than basketball. This makes the pro college hoops people have a good argument and as an pro basketball fan it is sad to see the NBA being led by a huge drama queen.
by JR15 on May 12, 2010 1:49 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm fine with your statement that he's on a throne he doesn't deserve...
But the statement that other top players are as good is just plain wrong. No one is as good as LeBron right now. Not even close.
He brings a complete package of scoring, rebounding, setting up teammates, and ridiculous defense. The only weakness in his game is his perimeter game (and not from 3…more like mid range jumpshots).
I think it’s pretty short sighted to think that the guy won’t ever win a championship. So short sighted that I’d be willing to put a lot of money behind the statement that LeBron James will win more than 1 championship before he’s done.
Also, your drama queen statement is also unfair. Kobe and Shaq were bigger drama queens than James is…
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
sad to see the NBA being led by a huge drama queen.
I think he means the whole walking off the court not shaking hands with the other team after getting eliminated by the Magic last year.
To which, I don’t disagree, As much as Charles Barkley didn’t want to be a role model, he was. Kids do see that bad sportsmanship and it does carry over.
by Melo'sPersonofSeattle on May 12, 2010 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Ah, yeah, point taken...
I forgot about that.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
When LeBron wins his multiple titles
I will eat all my words. Until that point you know how I feel chantech.
I guess I am doing this bc 1) the media goes nuts over LeBron when he is not that good. I mean all defensive team really? He gets a couple of nice blocks in transition, but he is not even close to a lockdown persistent defender that an all-defensive player is.
2) There are other players in the league that are good including our Carmelo. Just because James is overhyped doesn’t mean we ignore the other good players like the media is doing.
James is the MVP, but he is not that great is all I am saying. MJ and LBJ should not be mentioned in the same sentence again.
If LeBron joins a good player this summer then we may see a great player. Otherwise just another talent who can’t get her done. Seen it plenty o times. We will see which path LBJ goes down.
by JR15 on May 12, 2010 3:57 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I promise no more after this
The game of Nugs vs Cle in Cleveland where LeBron had a historic triple double but missed the last shot is a microcosm of what he is in my eyes.
He can put up insane numbers, but when he needs to get those points to actually win, he comes up short. Kobe probably would have made that shot.
Alright no more LeBron bashing he is probably a nice guy in person. The media has made a monster from him, but it isn’t his fault.
by JR15 on May 12, 2010 4:27 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Carmelo missed a game winner in game 2...
You could focus on that specific data point and say he’s not very clutch. We all know better because we’ve seen his whole body of work.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
"he is not that good"
He is not that great by what measure? I think the metric you’re using to determine his greatness is # of championships won and I’m saying that you’re completely wrong.
His defense is ridiculously good…both help defense and individual defense.
By any offensive measure, he’s way better than anyone else in the league right now.
I’ll toss out a few just to see if I can change your opinion:
1. If you look at PER, the greatest season ever was posted by MJ at 31.89 in the 87-88 season. This year LBJ posted a 31.1 and last year a 31.69. Those are the 2nd and 3rd best seasons ever, if you trust PER. That’s historically good…those are the 2nd and 3rd best seasons ever put up by an NBA player.
2. Oh, what’s that? You don’t like PER as a stat and prefer win shares. Fair enough. Here are his win share numbers: 18.5 this year, 20.5 last year. By comparison, this year’s 2nd best guy was Durant at 16.1 and then Howard at 13.2. Look at the difference between LeBron and Durant, and then how big the difference between LeBron and Howard is. Jordan’s best season was a 21.2 and his 2nd best was a 20.4. In Kobe’s best season, he posted a 15.3.
3. Both those stats are flawed, you prefer adjusted +/-? Ok, fine. He posted an 18.52, second to Howards’s 24.97, good for 2nd in the league. If you go back and look year by year, he’s almost always first or 2nd in adjusted +/-. Over a 3 year sample, he is easily posting the most consistently good adjusted +/-.
4. Oh, but those are offensive numbers, what about defense you say? Well, he ranked 3rd in the league this year in defensive win shares and 2nd last year. Kevin Durant is the only other guy in the top 5 in either category.
5. He does all this, at such an efficient rate, despite a high usage percentage…most players decline heavily with increased usage, while LeBron maintains his efficiency even with very high usage.
6. Did I mention he plays on a team with a head coach who’s worse than George Karl and teammates who are significantly worse than every other team still in the playoffs?
7. What’s that? You hate stats and prefer to watch games? Ok, go watch some Cavs games (please watch more than 1) and I challenge you to come back and tell me that he’s only a good player and overrated. Almost every game he played this season provided 2 or 3 OMG…I can’t believe how good this guy is moments.
8. Oh yeah, you hate the NBA and don’t like watching games due to drama queens. Well, in that case, look at who won the MVP trophy.
If anything…he’s underrated. The media doesn’t understand how ridiculously good he is.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
It's too bad
Dirk is so in love with Dallas. It would be fun to have him.
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