"Nuclear winter" is upon us...
by Andrew Feinstein on Nov 15, 2011 8:25 AM MST
in Denver Nuggets: News and Opinion
Email
PrintIn response to the National Basketball Players Association rejecting the owners' latest collective bargaining proposal - effectively ending any shot at a 72-game season and possibly killing the 2011-12 NBA season altogether - NBA commissioner David Stern remarked that "...we're about to go into the nuclear winter of the NBA." In other words, I'm going to save thousands of dollars on would-have-bought tickets and countless hours of would-be basketball watching. But by no means am I happy about this.
Clearly, reality is yet to set in among NBA players.
Of the 450 active NBA players who had the opportunity to salvage the 2011-12 season on Monday, all but about 20 (including NBA luminaries like LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Manu Ginobili and Amar'e Stoudemire) are grossly overpaid.
The 20 or so LeBrons and Kobes of the NBA put asses in the seats. They prop up local economies almost single-handedly by being among the biggest draws in sports. Or, in GOP-speak, they are "job creators."
The rest?
Let's just keep it simple and acknowledge that no one is buying a ticket to watch Al Harrington or Derek Fisher play basketball.
And that's the crux of the issue from my not-so-cheap-seats point of view. The majority of NBA players - who, again, no one is buying a ticket to see play - are Al Harringtons and Derek Fishers. Mediocre players who get unnecessarily showered with millions of dollars thanks to mid-level exemptions, luxury tax thresholds and other loop holes available to NBA general managers that ensure a player is worth whatever the dumbest of 30 owners is willing to pay for said player's services. And even if it means missing paychecks for a long time, these mediocre players - and their overzealous agents - are dictating policy for the players. (Fisher, of course, just happens to the be the NBPA union president.)
Have fun with your 47% of basketball-related income (BRI), fellas. Because that's what you might have to settle for now if the owners follow through on their threat to give you a worse deal after rejecting their latest proposal. A proposal, mind you, that still ensured mediocre players a handsome salary and a handsome share of BRI.
The players will tell us that any future deal is "unacceptable" and/or a "bad deal". And you know what? They're probably right. Whatever comes of this probably will be a "bad deal" for the players.
But they're missing the point.
For the sake of the league, the next collective bargaining agreement should be a bad deal for the players. There shouldn't be guaranteed contracts that are more than four years long. There shouldn't be mid-level exemptions north of $5 million. There should be huge penalties for teams going over the salary cap to buy themselves a championship. One bad Kenyon Martin-esque contract shouldn't ruin a franchise for seven years. Those days must come to an end.
The global economic bubble burst three years ago. It's time for NBA players' economic bubble to burst, too.
But as the owners and players squabble on, those of us who love the NBA suddenly have a lot more time on our hands (and in my case, money, thanks to overpriced NBA season tickets that I won't be buying now).
I've previously written that if the NBA has to lose an entire season to put in the austerity measures necessary to make this great league more competitive, more fair for small markets and bring ticket prices (even somewhat) down, than so be it. And I stand by that statement. But having no professional basketball for the rest of this year, and possibly for the first half of next year, certainly makes me depressed.
Rather than witness the growth of Ty Lawson and Danilo Gallinari, we get to pontificate about what decertification means. Rather than see if Nene, Wilson Chandler or Arron Afflalo return to Denver or not, we get legal updates on ESPN about the NBA's latest courtroom drama between owners and players. Rather than see if Kenneth Faried and Jordan Hamilton can step into the wake left by the departed Kenyon Martin and J.R. Smith, we get to watch rerun after rerun of "Hardwood Classics" on NBATV.
If there's a silver lining in all of this, I hope NBA owners take the time allotted to them during this latest impasse to put forth a proper revenue-sharing system among themselves. Regardless of how a new collective bargaining agreement is structured with the players, a Major League Baseball-type revenue-sharing system on its own would make the NBA a more competitive league among its 30 franchises. But why do I think that's not going to happen.
Instead, we as fans are on the hook for another month (or more) of legal wrangling, trash talk, double speak and more between owners and players. The players will say they've conceded enough. The owners will lie about how good this deal is for the players. And the 2011-12 season will get reduced to 50 games or none at all.
For the fans, it's "nuclear winter" indeed.
157 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
And don't forget...
That 10+% annual raise! I don’t get one of those!
Sadly that entire post reads as if written by someone with a check stub in their wallet from of a freshly cashed check issued received from a NBA franchise
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
"And, please remember, ignorance is not a defense"
by the word on Nov 16, 2011 6:38 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Scabs?
I have seen any mention of this – can the NBA have scab games?
It is a lockout
They could have scabs if the players were on strike, but they are not. But who would watch that anyway? You ever watch the D league?
Formerly KS and CS
by ThrowItDownBigManThrowItDown on Nov 16, 2011 2:40 PM MST up reply actions
If European and Asian leagues are smart...
… they attempt to fill the vacuum. Negotiate TV contracts and pay per views. Change rules that limit the number of foreigners on their team.
I blame the owners for not getting a revenue sharing system in place more than the players. Dumb owners lead to dumb contracts.
Maya: "What are your first impressions of Denver?"
Mozgov: "I must break you..."
I pay to watch teams play basketball
Huge salary disparities make about as much sense as disparities in how long players hold the ball. See the career of a certain former Denver “superstar” as one illustration.
What a bunch of shit this has all become. I’m out. The college game will have to suffice.
No. More. Stickyball.
by LongWindedHank on Nov 15, 2011 12:30 PM MST reply actions
Well thars upside there, ya know.
Next year’s draft is supposed to be loaded with good college talent.
So happy viewing, keep us posted on your favs.
Andrew, I'm a little shocked by the tone of your post
While it’s not pro-ownership, it’s definitely anti-player, as though it’s them who are keeping games from being played.
Let it be clear to everyone going forward: this is a lockout, not a strike. Owners are refusing to let the players play under the current terms of their contracts, which, by the way, the owners are still obligated to pay the players over. You can’t run a business by saying “Yeah, I know I owe you X dollars but I’m not gonna let you uphold your end of the contract by literally denying you access to facilities, and therefore not pay you”. The owners are potentially fucking themselves enormously (because players would/will be awarded treble damages if courts rule in their favor).
To me, I think it’s fairly clear that the owners have not negotiated in good faith at any stage of the process and they are the ones primarily at fault here.
I have a longer rebuttal, but it’s gonna take two posts.
Are you insane?
Yes, it is a lockout…but the CBA expired! I think your missing that point. There is no more agreement between the parties. So this is not one parties fault or another, it is what happens in sports and they negotiate a new deal. The difference is that, as Andrew alluded too, the players are living under a rock in thinking that the old CBA was a measuring point for a fair deal. That system was broke and we need a new system. But by no means is the lockout a result that can be blamed on the owners. They have every right to negotiate a new CBA with the players since the existing one expired.
Exactly....
Not fair… based on what? The notion that we would posture and then all meet
in the middle and be happy, happy?
Junkie, you are spot on. This system is broke.
I’ve believed Stern et al from the beginning. It was clear what is needed and it has been
clear that the owners had chosen this opportunity to get there from here.
That anybody would be surprised is beyond nutty.
Almost all of that is incorrect BS.
There was a opt out clause in the past CBA, that the owners took. They’re refusing to let the players play under the past agreement because they realized it was an agreement that led to a lot of small market owners losing considerable money. Maybe some of that was bad decisions by those owners, but regardless that’s their position.
Players signed those agreements under the last collective bargaining agreement. Since there is not a collective bargaining agreement that both sides can agree to, according to David Stern they are no longer valid contracts. Something to be debated in court.
I’m guessing that has about as good of a chance of happening as the triple damages argument.
It's a lockout until either the players or the owners prevail in court or they come to an agreement
The owners locked out at the date of the CBA expiration. Contract voiding won’t happen because owners don’t want 420 free agents and it’s not clear that they would be ABLE to do legally in the first place. It is a 100% lockout. That’s indisputable.
This would be a different scenario if the players decertified (petition by players to dissolve the union)…there would be no one to bargain with. Technically the players now have reformed at a Trade Organization lead by lawyers Jeffrey Kessler and David Boies.
It’s important to note that the players have not yet sued the league.
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
by Jeffrey Morton on Nov 15, 2011 4:27 PM MST up reply actions
and now they have filed two separate suits. One in Califormia one in Minnesota
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
by Jeffrey Morton on Nov 15, 2011 11:07 PM MST up reply actions
Yep, now the player agent/lawyers get to strut their very
big egos to the sound of Ka-ching, Ka-ching. I could be wrong, but I’ll guess
the players are left with a very big headache.
The players have already given up so much
They dropped the BRI from 57/43 to 50/50 which is insane. The owners are claiming they need it to be more fair because of the poor economy and what have you, but it’s not like in 10 years when (hopefully) the economy is good again the owners are going to be like “hey, we should give you back those 7 points.” Everything the players give up now, they will not get back in the future.
A rebuttal
You claim that “reality is yet to set in among NBA players”.
I guess the owners missed the boat on reality entirely, then.
Of the 450 active NBA players, including Al Harrington and Derek Fisher, each and every one of them is the product by which the NBA makes its fortune. You and I and every other NBA fan don’t pay to watch Stan Kroenke or Donald Sterling sit in their luxury boxes. We pay to watch the talent on the floor. These players have skillsets and abilities that are irreplaceable – by which I mean, the NBA cannot put forth a product fans will watch without them. I certainly would not watch a “scab” NBA. This includes both superstars and non-superstars.
A big issue is that people naturally try to relate to the players as regular employees: “What the fuck? I don’t get a share of the profits for working at Subway and my job fucking sucks! Why should they get a share for doing something awesome?”
I think a much more obvious counter-argument for the players would be that the owners bring absolutely nothing unique to the league. They are all merely rich white guys who provide capital, something this country has plenty of. If the NBA as a business completely self-destructed and you were going to build a new league from scratch and you had to choose which group to keep, would you pick the owners or the players?
I think the answer is obvious. The players have wholly unique abilities and skills that are irreplaceable, while the owners just provide cash and arenas.
You argue that the Derek Fishers and Al Harringtons of the NBA get “unnecessarily showered with millions of dollars thanks to mid-level exemptions, luxury tax thresholds and other loop holes available to NBA general managers that ensure a player is worth whatever the dumbest of 30 owners is willing to pay for said player’s services.” How is that the fault of the players, exactly? Is the argument really “ownership and management is too dumb to competently run and NBA franchise without additional rules to protect from themselves?” Because that’s what I’m getting from that statement.
Who, exactly, forced Orlando to make Rashard Lewis the highest paid player in the league? Did Kenyon Martin strongarm Kiki Vandeweghe into giving him a massive contract? It boggles my mind that “mediocre players being overpaid” is the argument central to your post.
Owners have extended offers that offer no concessions from their previous share of the CBA. Their offers are “(1) Cut off a foot and here’s a cane or (2) cut off both and here’s a wheelchair”.
The players were willing to take an 8% paycut and the owners are demanding they take 18%. After one of the most successful seasons/postseasons in NBA history. Over ten years that is three billion dollars. Here, this is how many zeroes that is: 3,000,000,000.
Eating a pay cut because the owners want their generally profitable while steadily increasing value in a down economy investments to make MORE money is ridiculous. The dudes with a monopoly on basically all north american basketball and by far the world’s most popular league, in their unlimited intellectual capacity, can’t make a fucking profit. Even Michael Jordan suggested that former Wizards owner Abe Pollin should consider selling his team if he couldn’t run it well enough to handle the costs.
People are saying they’re not negotiating in good faith because the offers have largely been insulting, based on almost definitely misleading proclamations of financial losses, and designed to be rejected to keep the lockout going. Remember we’re not just talking about the offers the league has presented, but the manner in which they’ve conducted even the scheduling of these negotiations. This isn’t even hardball. This is just “What you don’t want this shit tamale? The next offer will be shit crackers, so it would be wise* to take the tamale now. Bitches.”
Tim Keown puts the negotiations in more easily understood terms here :
And although it’s possible there are NBA teams losing money, this whole operation — charade, even — is designed to allow the owners to use the players to save them from themselves.
“We were very close, and the players decided to blow it up,” Stern said. The players, according to him, are “hell-bent on destruction.”
Such angry, militaristic words delivered in such a resigned, avuncular tone. Going in, we all knew this was going to get ugly, right? Everyone knew the owners were playing for keeps this time, and they’re holding up their end. The siren call was sounded after the NBA Finals in June, when Charles Barkley predicted there would be no season this season.
Throughout the process, Stern seems intent on infantilizing the players and their position. He figuratively pats them on the head — he knows what’s best for you, remember — while employing questionable negotiating tactics.
Case in point: Prefacing a proposal by saying that if it’s rejected, every subsequent proposal is going to get progressively worse. In truth, that’s not negotiating at all. In most bargaining rooms, he would have been called an extortionist and tossed into the hallway. In certain circles, it’s called blackmail.
All of the proposed eliminations, save the luxury tax (I personally believe there should be a hard cap based around BRI) seem like proposals to further insuluate idiotic management from itself. Eliminating guaranteed contracts, despite being a huge “fuck you” to a group of players who sacrifice their bodies to play at the highest level, won’t prevent teams from making bad decisions (it’s a terrible thing in the NFL and it would be terrible in the NBA). Nor will eliminating MLEs.
A league that was truly concerned with competitive balance would implement a revenue sharing system that distributed money amongst the smaller markets equally based on total BRI. But I have yet to see one whit of evidence that owners are truly concerned with making the league competitive in the way you describe.
What owners ARE concerned with is making their franchises as profitably as possible while putting the absolute bare minimum of a competitive product on the floor. Look at Michael Jordan trading away Gerald Wallace, or Memphis giving away Pau Gasol. Those weren’t moves made to increase competitiveness, they were purely about saving money.
In all, I mostly take issue with the fact that I don’t believe that your post and other major media outlets are not presenting this issue fairly (which is no surprise when it comes to labor relations in America). Players have shown a willingness to compromise on both their take of the BRI as well as systems issues, and owners keep saying “not enough” despite massive concessions. Why isn’t there more being made of this? Why is the focus all on the players “rejecting the deal” instead of the owners asking employees to take a massive pay cut without putting out the concrete financial numbers to prove it? If the league as a whole – and that is key – is losing revenue, then why not show it? What are the local communities feelings about building the teams massive arenas that aren’t being used right now?
In the end, this whole lockout is a farce and wholly on the owners of this league. Owners like Paul Allen, Michael Jordan, Dan Gilbert and yes, even Stan Kroenke, are responsible for this NBA “nuclear winter” by refusing to come to compromise that isn’t a total screwjob of the players. Make no mistake about it.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 15, 2011 3:14 PM MST reply actions 10 recs
Nice post Beefy. I agree with you that there is plenty of blame to go around when talking about the owners.
The crazy part is, the players likely will wind up having to eat a bad offer … no matter how this thing plays out. I don’t totally understand how players can be asked to take a pay cut when the league is showing record numbers. I think I read somewhere that TV contracts will be re-negotiated soon and I bet we’ll see a record for whichever networks ante up for broadcasting rights.
I agree with Andy that and yourself that revenue sharing needs to be addressed and so far it has been a total joke and after-thought by the owners.
While I don’t think teams should lose massive amounts of money, NBA owners who didn’t get in when teams were being sold for what seems like pennies in the 1970’s and 1980’s (maybe even the 1990’s) are sore about paying steep prices for teams recently. Owning an NBA team is more of a hobby or old boys club than anything else. You don’t buy an NBA team to say, “It is a smart financial investment.” You buy an NBA team to say, “I own a fucking NBA team! Take that people who doubted me!” Owning a team is like owning a Ferrari or other luxury item, it’s to be a status symbol, not a Subway Franchise.
I also agree with Andy that some players were making too much money and some system issues needed to be fixed. Why the Nuggets were not able to buy out or renegotiate Kenyon Martin’s deal is a flawed system. I know it was the Nuggets who deemed him worth $91 million over 7 years, but the injuries he faced ruined his time in Denver and the team should be able to protect itself against that.
Owners are looking for too many ways to save themselves from themselves and as far as I can see, the players have given in quite a bit … from 57% to 50% … pretty big numbers right there – like $280 million per season in givebacks just with BRI.
I don’t know what is going to happen going forward and I still think a season of some kind could happen, but I’m not sure at all what the CBA will look like now … craziness.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 15, 2011 3:30 PM MST up reply actions
Very good point, though in support, or reinforcing the error of the owners' ways
As you mentioned, who chose to sign KMart? And in fact who chose to manipulate the system, bidding against themselves, to not only pay the max for KMart but to pay the max as a Bird’s Rights player and also give up 3 future firsts to sign & trade for KMart rather than just sign as a free agent
Damage was already done, but teams could no longer get “KMarted”. the last CBA cut the contract durations just for that reason.
Regards to competitive balance… how do you legislate owner stupidity?
Also, the Nuggets had a chance to get out of KMart’s contract with the last CBA’s amnesty. The Nuggets owner chose to do nothing. The owner also pocketed the insurance money on KMart’s injuries while neither time using injury exceptions to bring in a player to replace the injured KMart.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
"And, please remember, ignorance is not a defense"
by the word on Nov 16, 2011 5:48 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting info. Thanks.
"All you fuckers who think we won't be good anymore, fuck you" - GK
Afflalo is Boss.
by love4nuggets on Nov 16, 2011 6:05 PM MST up reply actions
Supposedly the Atlanta Hawks also offered up a max deal for Kenyon, but who knows if he would have taken it. They did the S&T so that they could secure him and not wait the 7-days to see if the Nets would re-think it and re-sign him (and thank goodness those draft picks turned into nothing really). A great move or bluff by the Nets most likely. But it’s in the past.
Great points on the other aspects of Kenyon’s deal here in Denver. He could have been amnestied, but again – Kroenke would have had to of paid him a settlement and we all know the Nuggets don’t like to give away money (except when they signed him).
I don’t quite know how to legislate owner stupidity, it seems they are trying to put so much in the CBA to save themselves from themselves that that may help, along with some type of revenue share. But I’m still worried that revenue sharing needs to have LOTS of incentive clauses. I don’t want to see Michael Jordan raking in money while his team goes 30-52 every season.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 10:14 AM MST up reply actions
At the time...
Every news report that I read felt the K-Mart deal was a steal for Denver. Hindsight’s 20/20.
ha, well if he stayed healthy it might have been a steal.
I remember thinking that he’d be the third best PF in the West behind KG in Minney and Duncan in San Antonio.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 3:00 PM MST up reply actions
can we bitch slap the players&owners?
by ice357 on Nov 16, 2011 11:02 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
My favorite idea so far.
"All you fuckers who think we won't be good anymore, fuck you" - GK
Afflalo is Boss.
by love4nuggets on Nov 17, 2011 6:05 AM MST up reply actions
Reading that makes me want to start an Occupy Pepsi Center movement
Hey hey, ho ho
Greedy dumb-ass owners have got to go…..
Maya: "What are your first impressions of Denver?"
Mozgov: "I must break you..."
by margabelle on Nov 15, 2011 4:25 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Great post Beefy. Agree with all of it!
/slowest clap
/slower clap
/slow clap
/standing ovation
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
What have the players compromised on the system side?
Far as I can tell they essentially want the same system as before. The only thing they are willing to “compromise” on was the BRI cut. And that is only if you hold to the idea that the previous contract is the starting point of a future CBA. Don’t really agree with that at all.
I agree that revenue sharing is important, but think that you completely neglect what some of the system changes would do for a team like Denver
I completely support the small market owners for trying to push for a system that gives them a better chance to compete. I think I’d say the same thing if I was a Lakers or Knicks fan too.
Yes, some small market owners have made mistakes but the current system just completely magnifies their mistakes. A team like the Lakers can give out a bad contract and recover from it. Denver can’t.
Pau Gasol was traded because he demanded a trade, and Gerald Wallace because Charlotte didn’t see themselves as a competitive team—they had lost millions after all, with a miniscule payroll.
People can say I’m a fake fan, but honestly if the system is just like how it was before: I’m done with the NBA.
I think I am already done.
Owners are too chicken to address revenue sharing, and players are greedy as fuck. In my eyes, those are the two factors most detrimental to this situation. In fact, the only reason I owned a TV was to watch the Nuggets, but I gave that away a few days ago.
"All you fuckers who think we won't be good anymore, fuck you" - GK
Afflalo is Boss.
by love4nuggets on Nov 15, 2011 9:14 PM MST up reply actions
System Changes you ask
Contract lengths, Mid Level Exceptions, agree to some additional luxury tax penalties (but not to the level the owners wanted) to name a few
not to mention a whole boatload of money
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
"And, please remember, ignorance is not a defense"
Only problem is...
Those weren’t completely agreed to by the players. Especially the mid level exception issue. I feel confident that they wanted basically the same system intact. Fisher basically said as much. They had given a lot on the money side on their view, and for that they wanted a similar system.
NBA has always held that they needed significant changes to both for there to be a deal. That’s why we are where we are.
So?
Why do they need to completely agree to all the changes?
Shouldn’t giving up THREE BILLION DOLLARS over ten years be enough? Why don’t the owners offer up revenue sharing amongst the smaller market teams amongst themselves to help address the systems issues?
The thing I keep shaking my head at is how many people misunderstand how to make this league competitive. It starts with the owners. A Denver will not have as many people tuning in or going to games as will a Los Angeles or Boston, and therefore will have less operating revenue to fall back on. If the owner is a cheapskate, then, to keep their franchise profitable, they will cut back on spending for the team, which makes the team mediocre, which decreases viewership, and it just reinforces the negative feedback loop.
Remember that only one team (Sacramento) was actually below the “floor” for spending, so a minimum isn’t going to really change things. What WILL change things is a competent and well-administered revenue sharing system that institutes incentives for teams that spend and field a competitive team. But that is something that only the owners can work out and they are not eager to do so.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 17, 2011 11:37 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Nope, not good enough
I don’t think it’s enough. For starters, they didn’t “give up” 3 billion dollars. That was the previous deal, that was historically bad for the owners.
If you agree to a 5 year contract with a company, for $50 an hour and when the contract runs out, the economy has declined and in 22 of the 30 markets you have served you have lost money—it is NOT giving back if your new contract is negotiated at less then your previous contract. Revenue sharing, by itself will not fix the problems that plague the NBA. Unless you think the Lakers should be willing to entirely share their TEN YEAR $3 BILLION TV CONTRACT.
It blows my mind how people can actually claim our owner has been a “cheapskate.” We lost money surrounding our team around Melo. I don’t think it’s Kroenke’s fault for not spending at a level similar to the Lakers and taking eight digit losses every year.
Reality is that if the Lakers weren’t allowed to overspend to the ridiculous amounts that they were able to: Denver probably has a title.
The only thing is, like Ric Bucher said on Bill Simmons' podcast, the NBA was NOT affected by the economy.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 3:03 PM MST up reply actions
Fair enough
Although I do think that some smaller market struggled financially. Only thing I’d have to go off on that would be attendance numbers though.
I think all of us can agree that we want basketball back. Maybe it’s the owners fault more, or maybe it’s the players fault more.. but it’d be good news for all fans if a deal could be reached by both sides that could still save the season.
Thanks a ton for this rebuttal, BeefySwats
Recommended, as in with a click and with all my heart. Great read.
No. More. Stickyball.
by LongWindedHank on Nov 15, 2011 5:27 PM MST up reply actions
Holy shit
Great post, Beefy.
Thanks guys for rec’ing this so I was sure to see it.
I <3 stiffs.
"Such a strange predicament we find ourselves in / Baby, it's a long way to South America"
The owners, smart or stupid
Put up the money, hired the marketing, contracted the concessions, etc., etc..
The players play ball.
Who took the chance and created something? The owner. That is why they are the owner. No owner should be held hostage by a supposed Union that cares only for the Union. Do they really care about the players? Not in my opinion. The Union only cares for their salaries, the dues they collect and hoping that people will somehow believe their rhetoric.
We the fans are the ones who put up our hard earned money to watch a bunch of men put a ball through a basket/cylinder.
I blame the Union because they create nothing. They claim to represent the players, but do they really? Not if the season is cancelled. How many of the older players are going to be able to freeze their abilities until next year? None. They will be another year older and so out of shape they may have to retire, or worse, sit the bench and end their careers in ignominy.
I also blame the Agents, and in a small sense the players for being lazy and not getting more involved. Oh, wait, they cannot because the Union will not allow it. Only Union Reps, owners and a lot of greedy lawyers are involved.
I know there is plenty of blame to go around, but the owners created the product, the owners risked their monies and the owners run the show. By allowing the Union to come in and supposedly represent the “best interests” of the players they have, in my opinion become the creators of what we have now. Nothing. When and if there is an NBA season, I for one hope the Union is gone.
Call it a bad offer or whatever, but the players actually have no stake in the team but as players. They care for nothing but their paychecks, the Agents don’t care for anything but their cut and the Union doesn’t care for anything but the dues they collect and the great lifestyle the Union Rep lives on the players dues. In the end it is the owners who will have to decide what to do. It is their creation, their money, their sweat, their imagination and the ball is in their court.
The sun will rise tomorrow and us working stiffs will go to work. The sun will rise, the world will turn and for those of us who do not live and die to watch overpaid men put a ball through a basket will go home. We will love our wives and children (those like myself who have a family) and spend some quality time showing our kids how to do Algebra or build something.
Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth
Truth has no agenda - Glenn Beck
by IgorBStrange on Nov 15, 2011 11:44 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Thoughtful comments... Thanks for the effort.
Especially an elite few of union/agent/lawyers are on a total ego trip.
Plus Ka-ching, Ka-ching.
Sitting too far on one side of the fence
I appreciate your rebuttal BeefySwats. And you have many valid points. But I still am of the opinion that anyone who is so strongly for or against one party or another is truly missing the point.
Sure, these owners are greedy and are probably trying their hardest to strong-arm the players. But at the same time, the system was broke and needed major refinements. If the players were being honest with themselves they would see that also. The proposals do make it harder for guys to make superteams, but that is just the point! Do fans really want that? It removes the competitive balance from the league. I know as a fan I despise the Miami Heat and all these players that now want to join Melo in NY. Even MJ and Bird and Magic think it is cowardly and not the way they would have done it. It isn’t healthy for the league. The new rules will make guys want to stay with their teams that drafted them. I am sorry, but that is a GOOD thing!!! No one can convince me otherwise.
And one major point that I feel obliged to correct you on – that of bad contracts being all about bad team management. While I agree, to an extent, the Front Offices and ownership of these teams that signed these terrible player contracts are partly to blame. The system is MORE to blame. There is always a team that will sign Player X to an insane deal. So if your team doesn’t do it, someone else will. So the contracts have spiraled out of control because if you are a FO and want a competitive team, you are forced to overpay in some situations to get a Free Agent to sign or retain your own Free Agents. And sometimes overpay even more if you are a small market like SLC or Denver or Minnesota. The system had to be defined more clearly so that if a guy is signed, and it turns out he is not worth the money, that the team does not suffer for years because of it (see Martin, Kenyon).
The system is broke, and must be fixed. Sure, I think the owners maybe are pushing too much and not giving enough, however the players have done a piss-poor job in this deal in negotiating. Both parties are to blame – both selfish and ego driven.
by NugzJunkie on Nov 16, 2011 12:48 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
One question
On your comment…
“I think a much more obvious counter-argument for the players would be that the owners bring absolutely nothing unique to the league. They are all merely rich white guys who provide capital, something this country has plenty of.”
Michael Jordan is white?
Seriously though, good job of venting and good points.
To the points some understandably frustrated fans make “stupid blah blah blah players, just take the offer they arent the game” I always remind them.
Nobody pays $200 for tickets, parking, beer, pretzels, beer, nachos, and beer to watch a bunch of slobs working at WalMart.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
"And, please remember, ignorance is not a defense"
Haha good point about MJ.
What a hypocrite, though.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 17, 2011 11:32 AM MST up reply actions
Check out this article on what some cities may lose this season without basketball: click here.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
Because of the specifics of the NFL lockout
I was 100% with the players that time around. This time… oh boy. I think Andrew got it right. I’m 0% with the owners, but if it’s mathematically possible I’m also 0% with the players. They have screwed the pooch here. The last CBA was bad for the league which makes it bad for the players in the long run. JA Adande summed up a lot of key points very nicely here (sorry, didn’t want to make a separate FanShot): http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/RIPNBA-111115/tarnished-legacies-rip-nba
Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.
Just what do the players expect to win?
The freedom to start a player owned league?
Good luck with that. Even if they win, they lose, don’t they?
They win summary judgment against the owners
Which means triple damages.
Which means that some franchises (perhaps the ones claiming that they’re being screwed so, so badly by the current CBA) might fold.
Remember, ownership was what pushed it to this point by continually asking for more cuts by the players, and they pushed them so far that the players decided to say “fuck it, this is not good faith negotiation” and are taking it to the courts. As well they should.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 15, 2011 5:31 PM MST up reply actions
Good Quote from Adande
“What the NBA, particularly the players, failed to realize is that there’s a difference between valuable and necessary. Yes, fans and sponsors are willing to pay a high price for the product. But they’re also capable of living without it. It’s not essential. That’s why the players had no leverage.”
Beefy’s comments above (well argued) are predicated on the player’s unqiue skills and the fact that they are “irreplaceable”. That may be true for the league, although I think it is debatable…look at the popularity of college basketball…..however, it is definately not true for the great majority of average sports fans, who can easily replace the NBA with any number of college and pro options, and are more than happy to do so. Very few people (relativel to say, football or even baseball) have loyalty to the NBA and its product. Need proof, go to an average website (non-NBA related) comment and take a look at public sentiment.
For me, I will miss the NBA. I really have liked the game since moving to Denver 15 years ago…but it isn’t a necessity and I can move on…although I prefer not to.
Just wait until February,
No basketball. No football. No spring training.
The only sport around will be hockey. Believe me, if people weren’t missing the NBA now, they certainly will be then.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 15, 2011 5:33 PM MST up reply actions
Hockey has a sad :(
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
David Stern
and the Owners should have been in talks before the season ended last year.
Maybe the demise of David Stern will happen.
They have been...
For over two years supposedly.
haha, nice find. Avs rule!?!
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 10:16 AM MST up reply actions
I love the Avs
I just wish I could remember to watch them. Hockey is also really hurt in my opinion by the relative lack of advertising and promotion.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 17, 2011 11:32 AM MST up reply actions
Ya, the Avalanche folks we had on our Podcast talked about how the team isn’t embracing social media or marketing the young good guys on the team. And the only time you see Avs commercials is when you are watching the games on Altitude.
Angelique from Mile High Hockey recommended the Avs put some commercials on during the Broncos games.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 3:05 PM MST up reply actions
Thumbs up...
I respect that there is and always will be a hardcore group of NBA supporters….but
You’ve got the backdrop of the economy which is and will be ongoing. You (impersonal)
may not be affected, then good for you, but many, many are and still will be.
Then add the reality teevee generation, the iPhone crowd, etc. It’s not about a tit for tat
over specific issues, it’s the whole macro-economic landscape that counts here.
Other options
I’d easily pay a fraction of the price of the nba to see a d-league (with scabs maybe) game, particularly in a smaller arena. I used to go to the Broomfield Event center for both hockey and hoops – but more owner mismanagement killed that, too. I guess I’m not one of the sheep, because I do NOT go to the NBA to see the LeBron, etc, – I’d rather see TEAM hoops. I cheer for the Afflalo’s and Birdman (when he hustled) and the Bryant Stith work hard stiffs.
BTW: I really appreciate this discussion, particularly Beefy, and of course Nate and Andrew – I’ve learned a lot. Not that learning really kills the pain that much….
Nobody is irreplaceable
Somebody will always come around to replace you. Chamberlain was replaced by Jabbar who was replaced by………
Connie Hawkins was replaced by Doctor J who was replaced by Bird who was replaced by Jordan who was replaced by LeSucks who will be replaced by…
Get the point?
Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth
Truth has no agenda - Glenn Beck
by IgorBStrange on Nov 15, 2011 11:50 PM MST up reply actions
Interesting I don't normally watch a lot of college basketball but.....
ESPN is showing Kansas versus Kentucky. Since I know both those teams are generally pretty good, I’m enjoying the game. Dick Vitale is commentating and he brings up the fact that its sad that he can’t watch the Knicks at MSG. He mentions the fact that it’s sad that these rich and wealthy owners and players are all being selfish and not thinking of the regular small business people they are screwing. Then he says something that both I and Feinstein(along with some others here) can relate to directly. The ridiculous prices just to see an NBA game in any arena in the league. If these “hard line” owners(kroenke,Gilbert and others) want to get the fan base on their side all they would really have to do is pass these BRI savings to the hard core fans. If I didn’t personally get a HUGE discount I guarantee I would be in the same boat as Andrew. For now I’m in agreement with BrandonHawpe that I’m 0% for players and 0% for owners.
Follow twitter : twitter.com/Jay_Ru96
Formerly JR2
Denver Nuggets dove c'e squadra nel basket
GALLLLLLLLLLOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by The U.N. Fab Five on Nov 15, 2011 9:16 PM MST reply actions
Good post here.
"Such a strange predicament we find ourselves in / Baby, it's a long way to South America"
Masai Ujiri...
Was at the game supposedly. Scouting for whenever this crap is over with.
Vitale is right.. neither side should really be allowed to lament about the other side causing unemployment/a decline of the economy in regards to businesses around NBA arenas.
Good point
and that game was pretty fun to watch and I NEVER watch college bball, that Davis kid is gonna be pretty good
Kentucky is loaded
If they can start gelling, might be the favorite.
Wouldn’t mind seeing Davis in a Nuggets uni (unlikely I know)
BUT THAT'S WHERE MELO WENT TO SCHOOL!!!!! AAAARRRRGGGGGG!!!!!
I have, for some reason, always liked the ’Cuse.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 3:05 PM MST up reply actions
I gre up there, so that's my school
Got some very bad press about Bernie Fine last night. Story is very scetchy but we’ll see. Can’t ever tell after Penn St.
I think we’ll be seeing lots of folks coming forward. Some true, some not true. Watched the alleged victim interview at Cuse last night … seemed odd. Boeheim was very outspoken, a reaction you’d expect from the innocent, but you never know. Hopefully it’s false, not because it’d be bad for Cuse, but because it’d be nice to see that more people haven’t been harmed.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 18, 2011 3:46 PM MST up reply actions
Here is a great overview of the legalities of a disclaimer vs. decertification
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
by Jeffrey Morton on Nov 15, 2011 10:57 PM MST reply actions
Lot of blame to go around
But I’m hoping a canceled season means the NBA will come back stronger. The revenue sharing is just part of its problem. It would be nice to see competent officiating, four less teams and a shorter regular season.
82 games is way too many. At least get rid of the back-to-backs.
I feel like 50 to 60 games is enough to establish seedings and get on with the fun stuff: playoffs!
"Such a strange predicament we find ourselves in / Baby, it's a long way to South America"
they didnt talk about that stuff
So you can rest assured they wont happen. Imagine the uproar if they decided to shutter a couple teams? Players would freak the fuck out. Not that concerned with competitive balance, only with greenbacks.
by InboundingLobPass on Nov 16, 2011 2:33 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Quite Frankly...
I find it hard to believe that so many people on DS are on the players side after a certain ballhogging “superstar” player held our franchise hostage for almost an entire year. After all that crap we had to go through (will he stay/go, chucking it up not giving a **** most nights, etc) I could care less how “restricted” the players think their movement will be.
by NotPinkFloyd on Nov 16, 2011 2:46 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
Maybe I am confused
Which I probably am, but isn’t this fight more about money than player movement. From what I have heard both sides have made significant compromises and they are being weird about this BRI.
On this BRI issue I definitely side with the players. I agree with what beefy said, there are way more white rich guys waiting in line than talented bball players. The players deserve to be paid b/c millions of people pay to watch them.
The fact that owners think they can make a profit off a bball team is a joke and is what is causing the problem right now. The business that got them the money in the first place is what makes them money, they should treat their NBA team like a hobby (a la Cuban). If they did that, we wouldn’t be in this predicament.
Gotta love the haterz. Keep that hate a comin'
by JR15 on Nov 16, 2011 3:02 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Also the player skills are much more irrplaceable
. .it is not like you can’t find another executitve to own a basketball team or bankrupt a bank – those guys are a dime a dozen. Find me 5 guys on the planted who could beat Wade in a game of 1-1.
I’ll give you that there are a lot of “rich, white guys” (only a half stereotype) available to run a franchise into the ground, but there are FAR fewer “rich, white guys” that have the business acumen and dedication to commit to making a franchise competitive and turning a profit.
by NotPinkFloyd on Nov 16, 2011 5:12 PM MST up reply actions
What's your point?
I agree that there are a lot of idiot owners out there. That doesn’t excuse them from making bad business decisions and then trying to foist taking responsibility for those decisions off on the players and the fans who support their arenas.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 17, 2011 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
Something I think youre missing..
Is that the bad business decisions are generally made with reason. Teams don’t choose to go dumb. They are more or less forced in to it for the logic of competition.
We paid Al Harrington full MLE to counter Dallas offer. Ron Artest got full MLE is offset by Houston matching that deal. Joe Johnson’s contract was due to the offer NY was throwing out there. Gilbert Arenas was thrown that contract because Golden State put an offer out there (BTW Arenas took less money to stay in Washington)
If you have these players and allow them to leave without much recourse then you’re effectively turning down your fan base. Do you think Hawk fans would’ve preferred to just let Johnson go? Do you think Wizards fans would’ve been happy letting Arenas go? Every time we judge a team we have to do based on the circumstances that they had at the time of the deal.
At the point we signed Kmart it was more due to that we had a smaller window to compete at the time. We would be at about 11 million in cap space the next year if we carried it forward. With no promising FAs the next year. Also RFA status required us to sign him for more then he was worth. The owners seem to be trying to buffer what other teams can do to them.
There are few true ineptly managed teams. That’s the myth…Good and bad moves are made by all. Mistakes are overcome with more money. Hence why small markets are trying to limit possible avenue of mistakes. MLE is the largest pre-cursor to those errors.
Hard caps hold teams accountable for mistakes.
Or as partial owner of the Nets Jay-Z succintly says
The Nets could go 0 for 82 and I look at you like this s$*t gravy.
Basically summarizing that owners have tons of money to spend. Most of them should have known before buying a bball team that they wouldn’t make that much money.
This is their Masserati that they spend more money maintaining it and not using it at all, I don’t get why the owners complain that they aren’t making money when they have soo much of it.
Gotta love the haterz. Keep that hate a comin'
I think there is also something to be said with some members here being frustrated with management as well. Not being able to bring in certain free agents, letting guys like Arron Afflalo test free agency … it’s all a mess.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 16, 2011 3:03 PM MST up reply actions
I agree
that a guy like Arron Afflalo should be shown a little more love than he has received but, on the other hand, this is a unique off season (clearly with the way the labor talks have gone) and, as much as I love AAA for his old fashioned work ethic and commitment to defense, I don’t want the Nugs to sign him to a contract that pays him way more than he is worth. And I think that is part of the problem with smaller market teams like Denver: at the end of the day we have to pay more to get FA’s to come here than they are worth. I think K-mart and Lebron (on the other end of the spectrum) are pretty good examples of this.
by NotPinkFloyd on Nov 16, 2011 5:09 PM MST up reply actions
My memory's short these days but I was thinking
they were willing to extend, but the agent/player weren’t satisfied. I’m sure they
were looking ahead and maybe the (proposed) offer didn’t knock their socks off
but AAA might have lost more by waiting??
Ya, who knows.
I seem to recall some Denver Post article talking about Afflalo not being extended and he didn’t gripe about it at the time, but if he signs in Chicago for a decent deal, we’ll be complaining LOUDLY here.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 10:18 AM MST up reply actions
We can complain...
But should we fault the team for waiting until the new terms to understand what the true valuation will be for Afflalo?
RFAs have to be signed to their extensions a season prior to when they become RFAs. So in this instance going in to this last season did we have a certainity that Afflalo would be a 6-8 million dollar player? He’d only had one year of success to that point. Perfect formulation of a player like Trenton Hassell and Ricky Davis getting paid.
I have more fear of overpayment due to system requirements right now then of losing players to FA. If we sign Gasol to a 13-16 million 4 year deal, we repeat the Kmart mistake.
Trenton Hassell, great worker … limited talent. Ricky Davis, total headcase. Arron Afflalo, great work ethic and lots of promise in his game. Who knows what his agent was asking for and what Denver was willing to pay, so it’s hard to say what I would have been happy with.
What if Denver was able to do a similar to J.R. deal for like 3 years and $21 million? Moot point now, but I wouldn’t have been worried about Afflalo making $6-$8 million per for 3-4 years.
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 3:10 PM MST up reply actions
I just want basketball
I support the owners so much as I think, like any business, they have a right to make money.
But I think the owners are missing the point if they think it is strictly about how much the players are getting. What’s hurting them isn’t the players making money — they agreed to the CBA that expired — but the changing face of how money is made in the league. It’s more about television revenue and merchandising as opposed to ticket sales.
With HD televisions and home theater systems, more and more people are opting to stay home. And smaller market teams that don’t have the large markets — everywhere but LA, Chicago and NYC — are in a bind.
Man. I need to get some coffee. See you guys next year?
Maybe?
"Such a strange predicament we find ourselves in / Baby, it's a long way to South America"
I love coffee, don't drink it much - but really hits the spot sometimes!
We’ll be around throughout, so don’t leave us high and dry Fly Agaric! Maybe even have a Denver Stiffs night during this lockout!
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 16, 2011 3:04 PM MST up reply actions
Coffee gives me a terrible tummy ache
But lack of caffeine just slays me.
Everything is better, thank you $3.00 energy drink at Conoco. And I’m not going anywhere. You guys are stuck with me. Who else will call Andrew on his name-dropping and self-promotion and Nate on his terrible taste in film?
You guys need me.
"Such a strange predicament we find ourselves in / Baby, it's a long way to South America"
haha, I have been talking about terrible films on my Podcast too!
Can’t escape Keanu Reeves!
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 10:19 AM MST up reply actions
^ Self promotion!
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 10:23 AM MST up reply actions
I was chatting with Andrew about a Stiffs night
It was a few weeks ago at his ping pong tournament. I moved to Aurora btw. Where is a good gym around here?
NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!
by Army of Nugs on Nov 16, 2011 7:29 PM MST up reply actions
Where in Aurora?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Hampten and Tower
When are you moving back?
NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!
by Army of Nugs on Nov 17, 2011 3:05 PM MST up reply actions
24 Hour Fitness has two location near you. Parker and Quincy (not too bad). And Parker and Arapahoe (Super 24, costs more).
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2011 3:11 PM MST up reply actions
I was just going to suggest both of those.
And there is one at Chambers and Alameda
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
No plans to move
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
But you never know what life will bring
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
The worse the deal for the players . . the better for the Nuggets . .
Anyone have a guess who has the lowest committed salary in the league this year? Probably next year as well?
http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
You can bet Silent Stan would be happy with a 40M hard cap.
What I don’t understand is why there was no talk of a player ownership ? Crush the BRI but offer some of upside in 401K 5 ownership interest? Every other professional service industry grants ownership rights to highly paid executives how come NBA players don’t get the same treatment?
If they were willing to take on the risks...
Such as the team losing money, then that’s fine with me.
I think if more players had a stake with teams, they would want to change the system too.
The Nugz in 2040 will be awesome
Cos my son will be the starting shooting guard.
Just saying.
"Such a strange predicament we find ourselves in / Baby, it's a long way to South America"
lol
Thinking a change to nugzin2080 might be more accurate… lockout should be over by then, I would think.
Yep
Owners are just doing things that are in their own interests. Same with players. Dunno what the big deal was with MJ supposedly supporting a system that would help smaller markets. Makes sense because he has a stake in it.
Because he only wants his team to be profitable, not competitive
That is a huge problem. As Nate says above, there has to be an incentive for teams to be competitive or owners like MJ and others in small markets will do just enough to make them profitable but not competitive.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 17, 2011 11:29 AM MST up reply actions
Don't buy that at all
Think Jordan wants Charlotte to be profitable and competitive. The better they are, the more money he makes. Small market owners shouldn’t have to make the choice between WINNING and MAKING MONEY. You should be able to make a modest profit and still be a championship caliber club.
Since that isn’t the case, that shows the system is broken.
Speaking of Stan being happy
Stan was very happy how the NHL battle turned out
Just how are the Colorado Avalanche doing nowadays?
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
"And, please remember, ignorance is not a defense"
How many teams have played for the cup
How many have won it.
How many have won it more than once.
He paid all the money when it counted most.
It was wonderful, I am grateful.
Avs are rebuilding...
Give them a few years, and they might be good. The Avs are example numero uno why I don’t understand anyone wanting the Nuggets to go on a full rebuild.
Avs may be a low cap team right now
But they were capped out with Sakic, Hedjuk, Smyth, and Hannahan as the primary pieces.
That was more of a case of non prudent spending. When Sakic went so do fan recognition. They’re fault is they’ve not gotten a player to truly latch on to and market.
My own personal take is that Kroenke pays for high talent and will pay for worth. But has turned away from overpaying to draw to his market. Avs have talent but it’s hard to say there has been a true impact talent available in the last 3 off-seasons.
Why we lost Kiki after the Kmart contract and why a certain other was let go after the Al Harrington contract was signed.
So, the China basketball season will get underway in a few days
Who are you rooting for?
I’m torn between Zhejiang Golden Bulls(J.R.Smith) and Xinjiang Flying Tigers (KMart)
http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/11/16/chinese-basketball-news/
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
JR is leading the Bulls to the promise land
I can see him going for 82 just to 1 up Kobe (even though it isn’t the NBA). It would be nice to have firepower on the bench like Forbes (78 points) and probably JR.
Gotta love the haterz. Keep that hate a comin'
Going for JR
Not so much the teams. Hopefully this year abroad in a land that will not tolerate his knuckleheadedness will do him good so that the Nuggets can get him later on when he is finished over there. But I do see him setting every single season scoring record over there this year.
NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!
by Army of Nugs on Nov 16, 2011 7:32 PM MST up reply actions
I'm rooting for the Bulls. I may have a link to watch the games on delay
Ill pass it on if my buddy hooks me up as he’s said. Following JR on twitter has been funny since he got to China
Follow twitter : twitter.com/Jay_Ru96
Formerly JR2
Denver Nuggets dove c'e squadra nel basket
GALLLLLLLLLLOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by The U.N. Fab Five on Nov 17, 2011 4:15 PM MST up reply actions
Did you see all the pictures he posted from Media Day? I think Josh Boone (former UCONN and NJ Net) is on his team, if that is him in some of those pictures …
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 18, 2011 8:17 AM MST up reply actions
I did see all his twit pics.
Pretty cool. I think it was Boone but not positive. It interesting how he is probably going to dominate over there. Rules are a little different but talent level is way lower.
Follow twitter : twitter.com/Jay_Ru96
Formerly JR2
Denver Nuggets dove c'e squadra nel basket
GALLLLLLLLLLOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by The U.N. Fab Five on Nov 19, 2011 2:42 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I heard Andrew Bogut on the radio out here the other day.
One of his lines was something like “we’re just trying to look after our futures.”
Like an average salary of $5 million or so isn’t good enough?
I’m not really on any one’s side, but under the last propsal from the owners, the players would still have been paid a you-know-what load of money to play a game several times a week.
Julian from Australia
I really hate this argument
So next CBA the argument will be:
Like an average salary of $2.5 million or so isn’t good enough?
[10 years pass]
Like an average salary of $1 million or so isn’t good enough?
These are elite athletes with an extraordinary skillset. There are very few people in the entire world who can play basketball competitively at the NBA level. They SHOULD be paid a salary commensurate with the rarity of their skills and the degree of their talent.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 17, 2011 11:27 AM MST up reply actions
In this globalized economy
If the NBA really slashes salary that much, then the Euro/Asian leagues could start offering more money then the stars will leave forcing the NBA to adjust…
MOZGOD Member #35
Economic globalization has done irreparable harm to many economies
Including this one. I’d really rather not have to watch foreign streams for the players I like to watch. In a race to the bottom, even in professional sports, we all lose.
I don’t buy that argument.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 17, 2011 11:39 AM MST up reply actions
You're arguing it one way and not the other
That the market place can only increase and not decrease…
The rarity of the skill is known. But the valuation of that skill isn’t a defined number. If there is current loses in the system and projectable losses going forward then the status quo will only take the system out. No one wins…
Adjustments both directions have to occur. If the market in the future shows gains the other direction you get to fight upward.
Didn’t we hear other guys talking about going to Europe a few years back to get 50 million (believe this was Lebron James)? The year Josh Childress signed abroad and not in the NBA. Now the market place says 50 million in Europe won’t happen. Otherwise why would Deron Williams make only 4 million?
I paid for season tickets to see a team that previously went 17-65 and had no stars. We love the game of basketball and love the players that play for our team. But I root for my team to exist and to compete more then I do for Carmelo Anthony or Aaron Afflalo to be paid what they’ve deemed their worth.
The other point in favor of paying the athletes big money...
Is the window of their careers is pretty short. Once you make it to the NBA you might have Oden knees and have a short career or manage as a journeyman for years. You just don’t know. But regardless, 10 years is about all you are like to get. Considering the revenue brought in by people tuning in to see the players, I don’t think it is bad for them to want a reasonable slice of the pie.
"Such a strange predicament we find ourselves in / Baby, it's a long way to South America"
Come on now!
Goodness…really! We all know athletes are incredibly gifted and that is whey we enjoy watching them. No one is arguing that. But these guys are still going to get paid!!! You act like we are bringing there average salary down to like 200k a year (which by the way most people would dream about!). The average NBA salary would still be 5mil a year…goodness. I cannot believe anyone could truly feel sorry for the NBA player or for that matter think that this new deal is not fair to them financially. They are not cutting the top players salaries anyways…it is just the middle tier guys that are overpaid already (see: Harrington, Al)
They will be compensated plenty good, which is the reason why this whole hold-out is such BS.
The term is lockout, actually
Where the owners are refusing to let players play. Just to be clear.
by Colin Neilson on Nov 17, 2011 4:59 PM MST up reply actions
And your very quickly proving you are not in tune with reality
Yes, its called a lockout, but it is also called a lack of a new CBA. The previous one is no longer in existence. So call it what you want, but until they have an agreement, you cannot sit here and honestly tell yourself that the owners are the only ones at fault here. You are simply ignoring all logic and reason. And you are also completely forgetting how jacked up the current system was and the need for a new one. So just how does a new one come about? That’s right, a new CBA!!!! If they owners/players cannot come to an agreement, the lockout is just simply the result. Goodness dude.
No, you've made a mistake
Locking out employees is not the owners’ only option when a bargaining agreement expires. They could have proceeded with business with the previous terms in place while they continued negotiations. “Goodness dude” indeed.
No. More. Stickyball.
by LongWindedHank on Nov 18, 2011 11:05 PM MST up reply actions
Simply ignoring reality
If you feel that this was ever an option. It just doesn’t happen like this. Both Players and Owners knew that the CBA was expiring and that a new one would be requested. The NFL had the same issue and the same result happened – a lockout. The NBA players and owners have had years to talk about a new deal. It wasn’t until a lockout happened that the urgency was placed into the talks. That is simply just the way it works. In a perfect world, sure your right, but your ignoring reality if you feel that it would have happened that way.
they're talented sure
But do all olypians get millions and millions? No. Bballers get paid in accordance with how much can be made from them. That isnt always in accordance with their talents on the court. Its marketing.
by InboundingLobPass on Nov 17, 2011 6:43 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
The players aren’t more talented now than they were when they were making less money 10 yrs ago.
by InboundingLobPass on Nov 17, 2011 6:52 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Considering the 9% unemployment and the average GDP (Quicky average household income) is $47,000
It’s really hard for me (And probably 98% of NBA fans) to feel sorry for the players crying that they would make 15 million a year as opposed to 17 million a year. You hear them cry how they gave back to the owners 350 million dollars (to cover a supposed 330 million total league loss last year) and that might as well be monopoly money.
At first I was pissed that certain small market teams were wanting this “Last ditch CBA” to fail (Like our own Stan Kroenke). But as more details came out, it became clear that this was still the status Quo. When 9 out of the last 13 NBA finals were won by the same two teams (Lakers and Spurs) it’s clear that there’s no such thing as parity.
Kroenke has tried to keep up with the Luxury tax teams in the past 8 years (Losing money each year at the same time) in order to win a championship. Only for Carmelo Anthony to bail on the Nuggets for the bright lights in New York. New York was able to take advantage of this because of the previous CBA.
How would it feel to spend almost 200 million/year as NBA owners of the Nuggets, Jazz, Suns, Raptors, Timberwolves, Bucks, Kings, Warriors, etc to try to win a championship only for the same few teams (Lakers, Spurs, Celtics) to out spend you and always win it?
Don’t get me wrong. I’m a pro-union kind of guy. But this perverse Union look alike (The NBAPA) does not have intent and will of a traditional union. A normal union would have put this last CBA proposal to a vote to ALL of the members, not ask highest paid athletes and their agents (Conflict of interest anyone?). There are way more Gary Forbes and Sheldon Williams than Carmelo Anthony and Lebron James in the league.
So yeah, in a way I am glad that the Nuclear winter is upon us. The NBAPA are going to get a worse deal out of this and hopefully there will be a chance to level the playing field. A lot of people have said that the NBA is driven by star power (And the new CBA should accommodate the extremely talented). But as everyone saw this past season, winning trumped star power.
MOZGOD Member #35
by CombatChuk on Nov 17, 2011 8:29 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
I liken the players bloated contracts to the housing market
The housing market got inflated quickly. People were buying “investment” properties left and right, and the bubble was formed. It was never sustainable. The houses were not worth as much as they were going for, nor could the average household sustain paying for them. The bubble burst.
NBA salaries have steadily risen, some due to the simple fact that the NBA gained popularity, but partly due to a bubble, teams basically outbiding themselves for Free Agents in the name of competition. Star players of the 80’s were not making anywhere near what the star players of today make, in fact many of the star players back then were not even earning what middle tier guys earn today. Sure, the market somewhat supported the salaries, because of earnings and popularity of the sport increasing. However, a bubble was formed.
The bubble has to burst. Salaries became inflated and have to be adjusted accordingly, just like the housing market. Unfortunately, the players don’t seem to see it that way, and continue to think they are worth more than they are, just like homeowners who try to sell and havn’t been in touch with reality and try to ask for far more than their house is worth.
And if the swoosh of the bubble bursting....
In anything like the Phoenix housing market, the players will be grousing
among themselves for a long, long time after the league is playing again,
for not taking the deal (or something real close) when they had the chance.
Why do people think players contracts are "bloated"
you guys do realized they are a fixed percentage and max salaries are capped right?
Before everyone lauds the NHL “style” flex cap I’d like to introduce you to next season…where the NHL will repeat what happened in 2004. The NHL owners (much like the NBA) put forth a “token” revenue sharing program amongst teams, slashed salaries, and they STILL hate the deal they struck. Didn’t work because they didn’t introduce new revenue…much like what the NBA is doing now.
For billionaires they sure do make some questionable decisions.
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
by Jeffrey Morton on Nov 18, 2011 10:38 AM MST reply actions
Jeff, let me ask you a question since you follow this stuff so close:
Just a made up scenario here … Let’s say players take drastic salary cuts. Guys like Sam Dalembert go from making $12 million per season to $3 million per season. At the end of the season the BRI including salary adds up to only 40% … the split is 50/50. The owners then have to cut a check to the NBPA for the other 10% that they didn’t meet?
How does that 10% get divided up? Do the players get a certain cut, so Dalembert makes $3 million and gets a little bit of that 10% as well? Confused here.
I mean the money has to be paid out no matter what right? To meet the BRI split? Help me Jeff, help me!
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 18, 2011 3:52 PM MST up reply actions
Yes
a percentage of the players salary is put into what is called an escrow account. Same as this last year when the NBA cut the players a $160 million check. So the owners would have to cut the players a check (10% of the BRI would be a HUGE check). IF the players salaries would exceed 50% the owners would keep the escrow money.
So yes…It’s yet to be determined what amount of the players check will be withheld yet for the new CBA (IF there is a new CBA)
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
by Jeffrey Morton on Nov 18, 2011 4:03 PM MST up reply actions
Interesting.
Thanks man. You’re like the Denver Stiffs’ version of Larry Coon, with less gray hair! haha
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 18, 2011 4:17 PM MST up reply actions
lol...I'm gettin' there Nate...haha
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
by Jeffrey Morton on Nov 18, 2011 4:22 PM MST up reply actions
It would be a huge check
But let’s say that it goes the other way. That 10% doesn’t get split up between 450 players, it instead gets split up between 29 owners. Hardly seems fair to me. Both sides have horrible arguments, especially due to the fact that dragging this out in court gets nobody paid.
NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!
by Army of Nugs on Nov 19, 2011 9:29 AM MST up reply actions
Isn't this just cute...
AP source: NBA owners hold conference call
By BRIAN MAHONEY, AP Basketball Writer
Also Thursday, the antitrust lawsuit filed by players in California was reassigned to U.S. District Judge Samuel Conti. The first case management conference has been scheduled for March 9.So now we go into blinky, blinky time. Anyone want to blink first?
I blink all the time, count me in for blinking first!
Nate_Timmons on Twitter
DenverStiffs.com
Colorado Sports Guys podcast We're on iTunes (free!)
by Nate Timmons on Nov 18, 2011 8:58 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd be willing to bet that if you and I were given the responsibility...
We could blinky, blinky our way to a deal.
Injury update
JR Smith hurt his knee during the first game in China. Hope he has a speedy recovery. Also, judging from twitter feeds, I believe Wilson Chandler went 46 and 22
NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!
Any word on Kmart?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Didn't see anything
Think his first game is tomorrow. JR seems really bummed about getting hurt
NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!
by Army of Nugs on Nov 20, 2011 12:24 PM MST up reply actions
Seen the video
Does not look good for Jr. Good chance he tore a acl or mcl.
by tknuckle on Nov 20, 2011 4:18 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Andrew Feinstein
(denverstiffs@gmail.com)
Nate Timmons
(ntimmons73@yahoo.com)
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Denver Stiffs
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
DENVER STIFFS T-SHIRTS!
Enter your email for updates
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Orlando Magic coaching rumors include Jerry Sloan and Scott Skiles
- Jrue Holiday needs to shoot more for Sixers to win, according to Doug Collins
- Create-a-Caption: Jeff Pendergraph scares his Pacers teammates
- James Harden is a cake now
- Mike Miller loses shoe, plays two possessions without it, Pacers don’t score (VIDEO)
