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Rex versus Wark...

Chapman_2bwarkentien_mediumWith most of Nuggets Nation focused on what player moves the Nuggets might or should make this offseason, the organization has to deal with a more pressing – and perhaps more important – free agency situation.

Star-divide

In addition to the looming free agency of players like Joey Graham, Johan Petro, Anthony Carter and Malik Allen, both of the Nuggets "general managers," vice president of basketball operations Mark Warkentien and vice president of player personnel Rex Chapman, are free-agents-to-be, as well.  (It should be noted that vice president of team development, Josh Kroenke, is under contract as far as I can tell.) 

Before getting into the debate of whether or not the Nuggets should keep Wark or Rex or both (or neither), it should be noted that the Nuggets organizational structure isn’t as odd as many in the local media have made it out to be.  Granted, having essentially two GMs on the same level is a bit unorthodox by NBA franchise standards, but more franchises than not conduct business-by-committee these days.  The Bulls have John Paxson (vice president) and Gar Forman (general manager) who make their personnel decisions.  The Spurs have RC Buford (general manager) and Gregg Popovich (vice president and head coach) manning the ship in San Antonio.  The Nets have Rod Thorn (president) and Kiki Vandeweghe (general manager) in charge in New Jersey.  And so on.  

A number of other teams, conversely, function with one man in charge which is a more traditional way to go.  For the Lakers, it’s Mitch Kupchak who carries the title of general manager.  For the Utah Jazz, it’s Kevin O’Connor who gets the dual title of general manager and "senior" vice president of basketball operations.  And in Detroit, Nuggets fan favorite Joe Dumars (the gift that keeps on giving) serves alone as president of basketball operations. 

In other words, there’s no set way to run a franchise and in virtually all cases, NBA owners have final say over management decisions anyway. 

For the Nuggets, the basketball operations team is comprised of five key decision makers.  There’s Bret Bearup, who carries the title of adviser and was referred to in a May 2009 Wall Street Journal article as owner Stan Kroenke’s "basketball consigliere", there’s Warkentien and Chapman, who split the GM duties and report to Bearup, there’s the younger Kroenke, Josh, and of course, there’s the elder Kroenke, the team owner who happens to be a basketball aficionado.  Don’t think for a second that a decision gets made without Stan Kroenke’s input and approval.  After all, at the end of the day he’s the one who has to sign the checks.  

From any objective standpoint, this management team has done a good job since taking over in 2006 for Vandeweghe, who deserves credit for making the Nuggets relevant again at Kroenke’s behest.  From Vandeweghe, Bearup, Warkentien and Chapman inherited a perennial playoff team with a bloated payroll and were tasked with turning that outfit into a championship team.  If we judge our general managers by championships, they’ve failed.  But if we judge our general managers by putting the team in position to win a championship (as I do), I think most fans would agree they’ve done a good job. 

In fact, when I (erroneously) blamed George Karl’s coaching in 2007-08 as the main reason for the Nuggets not competing for the championship that season, it was mostly because I was enamored with the roster put together by Bearup, Warkentien and Chapman.  At that time, I was convinced that a roster comprised of Carmelo Anthony (a Vandeweghe draftee), Kenyon Martin (a Vandeweghe signing), Marcus Camby (a Vandeweghe acquisition), Allen Iverson (a Bearup/Warkentien/Chapman acquisition), J.R. Smith (a Bearup/Warkentien/Chapman acquisition) and Linas Kleiza (a Vandeweghe draftee by way of acquisition) was a 60-win, championship-caliber team, and not the 8th-seeded playoff quitters they turned out to be.  But I had overlooked the fact that a toxic locker room, caused in large part by the players brought in by the current management team, had just as much to do – if not more – with the Nuggets coming up short than anything Karl was doing.  And with the benefit of hindsight, it’s pretty clear to us all how valuable Karl is to a team versus the likes of Iverson or J.R.  In fact, it’s not even close. 

But to the credit of Bearup, Warkentien and Chapman, they too knew that the A.I. experiment was ultimately a loser and they cut their losses as soon as the opportunity arose.  By signing hard-working, high-character guys like Dahntay Jones and Chris Andersen two summers ago, followed up by shipping A.I. to Detroit for Chauncey Billups, Bearup, Warkentien and Chapman gave Karl a real team to coach.  And coach them he did…all the way to the 2009 Western Conference Finals.  And most of us – me included – believe that had Karl not been beset by throat and neck cancer this past season, a repeat appearance in the conference finals was likely.  At the very least, the Nuggets would have won about 54 to 55 games and one playoff series. 

My point of recapping all this is that for the past three years of the Bearup, Warkentien and Chapman Administration, the Nuggets have assembled – on paper – a team capable of winning multiple playoff series.  And they’ve done so under presumably strict orders from Kroenke to stay below the luxury tax line, hence why acquisitions like Jones, Andersen, Renaldo Balkman (even though Karl refuses to play him) and more recently Arron Afflalo and Ty Lawson are such steals.  Lest we forget that out of 30 NBA markets, the Nuggets rank 17th in market size.  

The problem, however, with having a committee in charge of basketball operations in which two of its members are due for contract extensions is knowing who deserves the credit for this recent success.  I suspect Bearup, Kroenke and Karl can answer that question better than any of us can, but we can read between the lines a little bit and attempt to draw our own conclusions. 

First off, it was Warkentien – and not Chapman – who won the 2008-09 NBA Executive of the Year Award by receiving nine of the 30 votes from a panel of NBA executives.  Chapman received one.  Right there, that shows you who other executives think is running the show in Denver.  But those of us who follow the Nuggets closely know that should have been a shared award, as I pointed out on May 3, 2009.  Most tellingly, however, when Warkentien won the award he was twice quoted as saying "it’s a team honor", while never once mentioning Chapman’s name specifically. 

Whether it’s fair or not or true or not, Warkentien won the award because there’s a perception that he gets credit for completing the major deals that have helped shape this team since his arrival.  Wark often gets props for bringing in J.R. Smith in exchange for two second round draft picks and Howard Eisley from the Bulls.  An absolute fleece job regardless of how we feel about J.R. these days.  Wark also received credit in the eyes of the award voters for swindling Dumars into taking A.I. for Chauncey, and for signing Jones and Andersen off the NBA scrap heap.  And this past offseason, Wark got credit for acquiring Afflalo in exchange for a second round pick and for weaseling his way into the draft to snag Lawson, a steal at the 18th spot in the draft.  So while it’s unclear as to who sources or brainstorms these deals (is it Bearup, Warkentien, Chapman, Kroenke, Karl, a team scout, etc?), it’s Warkentien who often ends up getting quoted and taking credit for completing them. 

But if Warkentien wants to take the public credit for the good deals then he must take the blame for the bad ones, too.  To this day I refuse to buy that dumping Marcus Camby’s salary on the Clippers in exchange for the right to swap second round picks was the best possible deal available considering how few quality big men are left in the NBA.  And I still fear that Warkentien is too enamored with his own deal making and overlooks character and team chemistry in the process.  Was acquiring Allen Iverson in a trade for Andre Miller, Joe Smith and a pair of first round picks a good deal?  On the surface, absolutely.  But an NBA insider of Wark’s caliber had to know the influence a guy like Iverson – he of the drinking, partying and no-practicing variety – would have on the young, impressionable Nuggets.  The rest of us didn’t realize it until the rumors of Iverson’s boorish behavior started leaking out and by then, it was way too late. 

But none of us should be surprised. Wark learned his trade in Portland at the feet of "Trader Bob" Whitsitt whom, together with Warkentien, assembled one of the most talented, least likable and most arrested teams in NBA history.  You know, the doomed-for-failure Jailblazers.  And had the Nuggets not done an about-face in 2008 by bringing in some good character guys (something Chapman allegedly pushed for as Sandy Clough noted in our last interview), the Nuggets were on the verge of becoming the Jailblazers 2.0.  Remember when (the often wrong) Peter Vecsey reported that Jamaal Tinsley was heading to the Nuggets?  Or the reported interest from Warkentien in Zach Randolph?  And those are just the alleged deals we fans heard about.  How many times have Chapman or Bearup had to keep Warkentien’s obsession with talent in check?

And that brings us to Chapman.  If Warkentien is the deal-closer, presumably hiding in his office while pouring over statistical analysis, constantly working the phones or traveling to scout the next Lawson for possible acquisition, what role does Chapman serve?  From what I can deduce, Chapman – having played in the league as recently as 1999-2000 – puts his basketball instincts up against Wark’s wonkish-ness and, along with Bearup, helps source deals for the Nuggets.  Wark acknowledged Chapman’s value as an ex-player when the two first got the job in Denver: "It’s always good to have an ex-player helping out.  I can’t tell you how many meetings I’ve been in with different NBA franchises where a thought comes into the conversation by an ex-NBA player and you’re like, ‘Holy smokes, that’s a good thought.’"  A little condescending to be sure, but hey, that’s Mark Warkentien.    

In that same Wall Street Journal article referenced above, Chapman claimed that the Nuggets "act on instinct rather than spreadsheets."  But I think that’s just Chapman’s point of view.  After all, Dean Oliver, regarded as one of the most astute basketball statisticians around, is on the team payroll and works closely with Warkentien and Bearup.  This I know for a fact because on the few occasions I’ve met Oliver – a very smart and great guy – he’s been with either Bearup, Warkentien or both.

Unfortunately for Chapman, the days of running a professional sports outfit on instinct are coming to an end.  If memory serves, Dan Issel ran the Nuggets on instinct and we’ve all seen how well Joe Dumars' "instincts" are treating Pistons fans right now (I once heard from a great source that Dumars does no statistical analysis and "just goes with his gut").  Conversely, as far as Warkentien is concerned the days of assembling talent at all costs and above all else are over, too.  In 2010, you have to have a GM who understands quantitative analysis and has basketball instincts, a la Sam Presti in Oklahoma City, Daryl Morey in Houston and RC Buford in San Antonio.  And with Warkentien and Chapman the Nuggets get both, but having two GMs, two egos and, from Kroenke’s perspective, two contracts to pay for can be problematic.

Knowing this, Clough put me on the spot in our last interview and asked who’d I pick: Rex or Wark?  My short answer was Wark, although it's a bit of a false choice.  But when considering the financial strains the Nuggets find themselves in as a result of their small market stature and the NBA’s current collective bargaining system, the Nuggets must take advantage of statistical analysis and salary cap loopholes to remain competitive.  And based on the deals Wark has been able to complete (regardless of who gets credit for sourcing them), it’s hard to argue that there’s anyone better in the league at getting off-the-cuff and under-the-radar deals done.  Hence why the Denver Post's Chris Dempsey recently wrote that "it would be extraordinarily bad for the Nuggets if [Warkentien] were to go."

That said, I’m not convinced that Warkentien’s penchant for talent above all else has abated yet, and I like that Chapman is there to keep Warkentien in check and give a fairly modern ex-player’s point of view on all possible deals.  And thus to be clear, my preference would be to extend both Warkentien and Chapman for a few more years.

Having overseen three consecutive 50-win seasons – something that has never happened in the Nuggets NBA franchise history – Wark and Rex would probably be granted extensions if this were any other organization.  But in a shrewd move, my understanding is that Kroenke has both GMs under contract through the early fall.  This bodes well for Nuggets fans.  This means that both Wark and Rex will be under the gun this offseason to work together while finding creative ways to improve the Nuggets, whether it be parting with Kenyon Martin’s expiring contract and/or trading J.R. Smith to land a big man, finding a way to get into the draft or all of the above. 

If the Nuggets don’t improve over the summer, our five-man decision making team might be reduced to four…or three.  

[BE SURE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE REX VS. MARK POLL]

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OT

interesting tidbit from The BS Report last week:

Ric Bucher was at most of the Nuggets-Jazz series and he had some interesting observations:

1. When Denver called a timeout, Chauncey would immediately gather the team and start coaching EVEN BEFORE Dantley even got to the huddle. And then AD would interrupt Chauncey and start saying something. Usually Chauncey would try to correct or interject, but eventually just gave up.

2. He just went off on how checked out JR was the entire 4th quarter.

3. Most timeouts, there was no centralized discussion. It was all of the assistant coaches having intense, 1 on 1 conversations with certain players. AD did not have said conversations with anyone.

by jb22 on May 7, 2010 10:40 AM MDT reply actions  

Chauncey...

put too much of a leadership/coaching role on himself after Karl, in my opinion. It affected his game, and he seemed both mentally and physically tired down the stretch.

by gonugs on May 7, 2010 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

+1

pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god

by nohoops4u on May 7, 2010 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

Although he could be a good coach

He’s a player right now. There’s a reason why the NBA hasn’t had a real player coach since Bill Russell. The game has just changed so much since then.

"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
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"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
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by LACK on May 8, 2010 6:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nice article Andrew

I would like to keep them both.

by gonugs on May 7, 2010 11:14 AM MDT reply actions  

Character guys?

A couple things. The Allen Iverson deal (2006) was completed almost completely do to the Carmelo suspension after the New York debacle. The Nuggets were in danger of losing money hand over fist, and they needed something to pump them up for those 15 games. From what I remember, it was Chapman who was the big public face of that deal….indicating that maybe it was HE not Warkentien who was the advocate general of that particular trade.

Chris Andersen and Jones, when they were brought in, were not viewed as “high character” guys. In fact I’d be remiss to say that Andersen was a cheap gamble coming off his suspension. Jones didn’t have a squeaky clean rep coming from Memphis….but things happened to work out on both accounts….but both men weren’t brought in to be character guys.

There are two deals that I can say had explicit “character” implications. The Chauncey deal and bringing in AAA.. Both had a rep for high character and that happened to work out.

Sandy has pointed out that Chapman is the character guy, and Wark is the talent guy. I don’t think it’s that black and white. I believe Wark falls in love with his own deal making, and Chapman is a numbers wonk who sometimes can’t see the forest for the trees. In tandem they have produced a unique GM approach. I think both should be retained because too much of either would potentially lead the Nuggets down the wrong path.

"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2

"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple

Quitter's People United Member # 78

by jpage78 on May 7, 2010 11:16 AM MDT reply actions  

I thought Jones came up from the D-league 14'ers, not Memphis...?

Jpage, good point on the timing of the AI deal following Melo’s suspension.

by Artimus Mangilord on May 7, 2010 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

He did....that right

Memphis….then D league. my bad

"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2

"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple

Quitter's People United Member # 78

by jpage78 on May 7, 2010 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

Always keeping things real around here...

Gotta love jpage78 for keeping me honest. A few rebuttals, but we’re splitting hairs here. First, Birdman and Jones were high character guys. Both had been tossed out of the league and were given a last chance by the Nuggets brass. Birdman completely reformed his personal life – to the point that he won’t even have a sip of alcohol anymore. And Jones altered his entire game to become a defensive stalwart at Karl’s behest. Compare those two guys with the likes of Ruben Patterson, Reggie “grabbing nut sacks” Evans, DerMarr Johnson and Earl Boykins who were here before them, and you see why I call them high character guys.

You’re absolutely right that the A.I. deal has to be put in the context of the Melo suspension and even I forget that sometimes. And I won’t duck the fact that I was 100% on board with that trade, even though I wasn’t blogging at the time. I just had NO IDEA what a self-absorbed jerk A.I. really was until I heard the stories that came out later. And anyone who has followed A.I.‘s career post-Denver through Detroit, Memphis and Philly knows that he’s bad news. Even at 34 years old, the guy just never grew up and accepted what it means to be a professional.

I also agree that the Wark/Chapman thing isn’t black and white.

Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com

by Andrew Feinstein on May 7, 2010 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

God Andrew....does it come across that I'm always on your case? For that I apologize...not my intention

The point about Bird was he turned in to a high character guy (until this year when he got fat and happy and injured….and argued with Melo in a crucial game 4) in the year he was playing for Denver. Remember when he was signed….no one had any clue how he would turn out. I never thought Andersen was signed as a “high character” person UNTIL he proved himself during the 08-09 season. You don’t sign someone coming off a “serious” drug suspension and assume he’s going to brighten up the locker room. I still maintain that what happened with Bird was fortunate.

AI was a result of desperation by the FO. Big mistake in trading your only true point guard for a me first shooting guard to be paired with Melo.

"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2

"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple

Quitter's People United Member # 78

by jpage78 on May 7, 2010 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

The point I'm making about character is you need to have a balance

….I’m upset with Bird because once he signed his contract (mistake by the FO because they were competing with themselves….Bird wasn’t going anywhere) he arrived in camp out of shape (compared to the previous year) battled injuries all year….hurt the team by playing through these injuries….then had a meltdown during game 4. Character comes in all different shapes and sizes…I’m willing to admit being wrong about Jones. All I knew was his rep from Memphis wasn’t great…but maybe he improved going into the D League.

As Sandy Clough pointed out after he interviewed you….it’s nice to have character guys, but if you go too far you end up with a bunch of choir boys who are too nice to play with an edge. Which is why it’s a must to sign BOTH Chapman and Wark. They create the balance.

"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2

"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple

Quitter's People United Member # 78

by jpage78 on May 7, 2010 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

keep in mind

what the Media deems as “bad character traits” might not appear the same way to the players.

If a guy is smoking a little weed on the weekends and gets busted, the media goes “oh character issues, he smokes marijuana blah blah” but for all they know he’s the most loved guy in the locker room, regardless of the weed.

Example: Allen Iverson

There might not be a more loved teammate this past decade than Iverson. All the guys loved him, loved playing with him because despite some of his faults, he gave it his all. But the media loved to call him a locker room distraction.

by jb22 on May 7, 2010 3:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

Did you have a peephole in the locker room?

I like Iverson, I do. All around fun guy to watch. But he wasn’t the guy who smoked a little weed now and again. He was the guy regularly out drinking all night before a game… with enamored teammates trying to keep up with him. He was the guy flying across the country between games for gambling benders. If these aren’t bad character traits, they’re not good. Outside of professional sports, do you know any high character coworkers or employed friends with these tendencies?

He definitely gave it his all, but only to the extent it didn’t require practicing within a team framework. That makes him a beloved teammate? Frankly, I think that would harbor resentment.

by Artimus Mangilord on May 7, 2010 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

all these sportswriters

that actually get in the lockerroom and know these players somewhat personally (more than we do at the very least) said that every teammate Iverson has ever had loved the guy. And an interesting side note, the same is said for Rasheed, (except for this season I’m pretty sure KG might try to poison Sheed eventually)

You say that the teammates were trying to keep up with him. That’s my point. They don’t see the allegedly bad traits about him that fans and the media do. A guy like Iverson is commonly seen as a locker room cancer on the level of TO, and I’m saying that isn’t the case.

by jb22 on May 7, 2010 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

I have to agree with Andrew and say Bird and Dahntay were high character guys.

Had Andersen not turned his life around and done what the NBA required he would not have been able to even get signed by Denver. And before all of that by all accounts it seemed like everyone liked Bird before his suspensions and he seemed like a great locker room guy.

Not sure if we knew it at the time, but perhaps the GMs did that Jones too would add to Denver’s locker room. After he left town I heard an interview with K-Mart and he said to waste time he’d go with Jones and J.R. (I think) to get tattoos. May be a funny bonding thing to some people, but there tattoo shops are great places to talk when you are getting ink.

And Jones was always the first guy off the bench rooting on his teammates after good plays. Key guy for any team’s chemistry.

Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.

by Nate Timmons on May 7, 2010 12:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

Let's not get too wrapped up in this high character chat

without acknowledging that there is a paying fan in a demographic that is being
considered by a business man at the top. I won’t go as far as saying “pandered to”, but the team did have a bit of a nasty image for a while.

I ran into Andersen at a health club down south before he was picked up by the Nuggets. He had been expecting to go to Boston but “they signed some Shannon guy” instead. He certainly wrestled with his demons and has come a long way. You don’t hear anything negative about him, but at the time he was trying to come back from being kicked out of the league. Sorry, but that was not a high character guy until he proved himself.

The year Melo came to town the Nuggets offered lower bowl seats to any club level member for $500 just to fill up the arena. Times have changed and these guys are the ones who changed them.

In any case, the FO has had their hits and their misses. It is unfortunate that at this tipping point, when we need focus, we’re being distracted with their contract issues. But this is Stan’s way of doing business.

by My3Cents on May 7, 2010 6:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

Penny wise, pound foolish?

How much are Wark and Rex making now? I can’t imagine they’re making money anything close to comparable to the players. If resigning them both results in greater savings to Kroenke through shrewd trades and signings, I see them both getting resigned. Kroenke’s a businessman, he gets that. But it’s hard to really know how the sausage is made and, importantly, how Kroenke perceives the value added by both men. If both are not resigned, definitely Wark, though he may be considered a desirable commodity at GM by other teams given the acknowledged success he’s brought the Nuggs.

by Artimus Mangilord on May 7, 2010 11:50 AM MDT reply actions  

Nice read Andy...

The GM’ing process is a tricky one to explain and to figure out…espeically in Denver. Nice work.

Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.

by Nate Timmons on May 7, 2010 12:18 PM MDT reply actions  

Good write up Andy!

I would like to see them keep both if possible. Rex though is beginning to become “Sexy Rexy” again though I suspect…. this time for his track record here. I could see a team he used to play for taking a look at giving him a shot (Hornets, Suns maybe?) in some greater capacity than we’re offering here. If that’s the case at some point down the road here then so be it, and I wish him well. And that’s because I agree with Andy in that the number crunching of the likes of Morey does indeed seem to prove itself successful in this day and age.

But again – bottom line: Keep them both if at all possible. Why mess up what’s worked out brilliantly for us thus far? The ONLY reason I can rest easy on this Nuggets tumultuous off-season that lies ahead is the fact that this F.O (Kronk, and my man Bearup included) will somehow pull off something that works to keep this team competitive. In that, I most definitely have faith. But if Chapman (who, let’s face it, is a pupil of sorts here) rightfully gets looks from other organizations, I wouldn’t get in a bidding war over him and would keep the tried and true mentor that has won the award for the position (like it or not Chapman), tha Wark.

by stiffy on May 7, 2010 12:48 PM MDT reply actions  

What about a 3-headed GM of Chapman-Feinstein-Timmons?

kidding, though I’m not sure Clippers fans wouldn’t be envious.

I agree that having them both under contract til early fall should bode well. I really feel we can’t afford to lose either right now, as I don’t believe either is complete enough to have nearly sole control on their own.

If I did have to pick between the two, though, I think I’d go with Chapman. I think he is more of a people person – and it is personalities, not talent, that have hurt this team in the past.

by Missing Lynx on May 7, 2010 12:59 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

I'm good with this...

Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.

by Nate Timmons on May 7, 2010 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good read

This seems to be a pretty hot topic these days with the organization. I am writing a paper for my final about the Nuggets and I emailed Dave Krieger to get some of his perspective. I mentioned that I personally felt priority numero uno this offseason was locking down Rex and Wark, but he wasn’t sold. He said that the teams main core for the past few years (Melo, Nene and Martin) was actually drafted/accuired by Kiki and that if it weren’t for the combination of Kroenke’s desire to cut payroll and Dumars stupidity (passing on Melo and trading us Chauncey) we most likely wouldn’t have near the team we do now. He said if you look at a teams like the Jazz or Spurs for example, they continuously use the draft to help develope players into their system and they are always good, and no matter what position they are in the draft, they do their homework and get players that help them win (ie: CJ Miles, Wes Mathews, George Hill, DeJuan Blair, etc.)
Obviously there is a difference in philosophy, because all of these teams are winning right now, but it’s an interesting take.

Personally, I think Wark and Rex HAVE to be extended. I don’t care how “lucky” we have been with Dumars or Kroenke’s desire to cut payroll that has actually benifitted us, we have assemebled a championship caliber team and that’s the bottom line. I would like to see us go after a big this year and actually make some moves this offseason instead of standing pat and letting players go for nothing all the time, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

"Jive turkey is a little over the line my man!"

"I'm kinda grumpy today, dude. I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. I was having those dreams again. Ya know, how it's just me in a castle and I gotta fight, like, a thousand wizards and the only way to beat them is to punch them as hard as I can in their faces. Then, when I'm done, all their little wizard wives came out and wanted me to have sex with them - which is kinda weird."

by GoldenNugget on May 7, 2010 1:51 PM MDT reply actions  

One more comment

I do agree that at some point in time Wark has to start looking at character a little more. You can put together a team of the most talented guys in the world, but if they all have bad character it’s not going to work out in the end.

"Jive turkey is a little over the line my man!"

"I'm kinda grumpy today, dude. I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. I was having those dreams again. Ya know, how it's just me in a castle and I gotta fight, like, a thousand wizards and the only way to beat them is to punch them as hard as I can in their faces. Then, when I'm done, all their little wizard wives came out and wanted me to have sex with them - which is kinda weird."

by GoldenNugget on May 7, 2010 2:18 PM MDT reply actions  

example

2004 US Olympic team

"I believe that basketball, when a certain level of unselfish team play is realized, can serve as a kind of metaphor for ultimate cooperation. It is a sport where success, as symbolized by the championship, requires that the dictates of the community prevail over selfish personal impulses. An exceptional player is simply one point on a five-pointed star. Statistics—such as points, rebounds, or assists per game—can never explain the remarkable interaction that takes place on a successful pro team."
~ Bill Bradley
~~~
http://www.youtube.com/bektur34 - denver nuggets videos

by Bek$ on May 7, 2010 3:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Excellent article, but there is one key consideration you didn't mention:

What about the Portland GM situation and how it affects us? If Kevin Pritchard is in fact being ran out of town, as many are reporting is likely, Warkentein is the most likely replacement, and we know Paul Allen will shell out the money for somebody who he can trust to do everything for him. So, while on the surface, it seems shrewd to have Wark and Chapman signed through the fall and working for a new contract, it might actually be a negative if Warkentein knows he’s going to be stepping in to a job in Portland. I think the more prudent move may be to extend these guys now.

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by airforcefoo on May 7, 2010 2:28 PM MDT reply actions  

GREAT POINT, but...

…if I’m a Blazers fan I’m not jumping in the streets to bring Warkentien back. He didn’t have the best track record while in Portland. Check out the names that played for the Blazers during Warkentien’s tenure: Dontonio Wingfield, Rasheed Wallace, Isaiah Rider, Kenny Anderson, Damon Stoudamire, Bonzi Wells, Jim Jackson, Shawn Kemp, Rod Strickland, Zach Randolph, Ruben Patterson, Qyntel Woods, Jeff McInnis, Darius Miles and Sebastian Telfair.

Having Chapman and Bearup to balance out Warkentien is what has made the Nuggets successful. Having Warkentien be the sole man in charge could be dangerous.

Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com

by Andrew Feinstein on May 7, 2010 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

to be fair to damon stoudamire

it was his DAD that caused all the problems with the quanity of weed that was found at his house. i can relate to stoudamire’s situation. no good deed goes unpunished. you try to be a good son and take care of your parents. if i told my own mother once i have told her a million times. “MA KEEP YOUR STASH AT YOUR OWN PLACE, PULLEEEEESE!”

pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god

by nohoops4u on May 7, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'd be fine with that scenario...

As long as we signed Pritchard…

http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech

by chantech on May 9, 2010 6:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Seriously

+ ∞. Pritchard is still a top 5 GM in the league. Why did we ever fire Kiki anyway?

by Nick C. on May 13, 2010 9:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

the gm issue

i look for wark to stay and rex to go. there are 2 reasons for this. josh kroenke will take chapman’s role and he will be mentored by wark. stan will be taking majority ownwership of the nfl rams and will at least on paper have to separate himself from the avs and nuggets. with all of stan’s business enterprises he cannot micromanage everything. wark will be able to get a competitive wage at rex’s expense. paying one is cheaper than both. bearup is still in the picture to look over everybody’s shoulder and breathe down their neck.

pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god

by nohoops4u on May 7, 2010 3:04 PM MDT reply actions  

great article...

they complete each other… like yin to his yang…

but if we have to chose one, i say to chose Wark….

by hvino on May 7, 2010 3:12 PM MDT reply actions  

its worth noting that Travis Heath of Hoops world (prob denver's best nugget reporter)

says that there’s a 75% chance of Wark going to Portland…. i hope its not true… but as mentioned before… i would sign Prichard if Warkentein goes to POR

by hvino on May 7, 2010 3:58 PM MDT reply actions  

Agreed

I don’t quite understand this. Both are great, but from what I’ve seen Pritchard is a damn good GM. I don’t see why they would want to run him out of town for a guy who already got kicked out of town before.

"Jive turkey is a little over the line my man!"

"I'm kinda grumpy today, dude. I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. I was having those dreams again. Ya know, how it's just me in a castle and I gotta fight, like, a thousand wizards and the only way to beat them is to punch them as hard as I can in their faces. Then, when I'm done, all their little wizard wives came out and wanted me to have sex with them - which is kinda weird."

by GoldenNugget on May 9, 2010 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

in the poll...

i went with resign them both,,but if i had to chose one, it would definetly be Wark

Quitter's People United member #7

by stan_26 on May 7, 2010 4:21 PM MDT reply actions  

Looking at the Spurs game today...

I could see an impressionable JR smoth buying into the team system and playing like an all-star.
The thing I would be pissed at is that we get someone like RJ in return for him. That would make me pissed enough to stop watching the Nuggets.
As a JR fan, I want his fanbase and local media to like him and not hate him like us mercurial fans do. I could see him winning a ring with the Spurs and everyone here would be like oops he is actually a good player that neede guidance. Yes we are more mercurial than JR Smith, think about that.

by JR15 on May 7, 2010 8:27 PM MDT via mobile reply actions  

Sad to think

Carmelo has a bad game we want him out of town, Nene is unselfish we want him out of town.
I guess I may have a different mindset, but it seems we want to run anyone out of town as long as it makes us feel happy for a couple of weeks then we realize in te long term that it was a horrible mistake.
I just have to place trust in the FO, I have to stop criticizing because I am not playing in the NBA so I don’t know how to criticize accurately. I was angry at the Balkman and Camby trade, but look at what FO did. So all I will do is just say…..
Gooooo Nuggets

by JR15 on May 7, 2010 8:34 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

yeah

remember nuggets fans

this team used to suck major **** before 2003.

by jb22 on May 7, 2010 8:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

We're not dumb enough to trade JR for RJ...

There’s a dude on the end of their bench who reminds me of a better Petro who I wouldn’t mind trading for.

http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech

by chantech on May 9, 2010 6:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

I have no idea

It’s so hard to judge because of the three headed team-GM approach that made the Nuggets successful. Then, you think about the non-event of the draft coming up, the massive salary already owed next year and I don’t know if it makes a short term difference who the GM is now. It’s like trying to whittle magic out of thin air. I don’t think it would be a bad thing to keep both. Then again if the writing is on the wall for a big changes AFTER next year then why commit long term to someone who won’t have much to work to deliver success in the short term?

twitter.com/skitalicious
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by runningdonut on May 7, 2010 10:33 PM MDT reply actions  

^^what are talking about donut??

we have some of the most tradable assets in the NBA… we need a good FO this year more than ever

by hvino on May 8, 2010 8:35 AM MDT reply actions  

Andrew...Earl Boykin's character?

You wrote: “Compare those two guys with the likes of Ruben Patterson, Reggie "grabbing nut sacks" Evans, DerMarr Johnson and Earl Boykins who were here before them, and you see why I call them high character guys.”

Did I miss something while Earl was here? What did he do to deserve being lumped in with that group?

by passtheball on May 8, 2010 11:19 AM MDT reply actions  

the answer to your question is in your screenname

Earl Boykins was philsophically opposed to passing the ball. He made JR look like Magic Johnson. His selfish play didn’t go over well in the locker room.

by adub on May 8, 2010 2:23 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

E. Stan should

Call Rex and Wark into his office, sit them down, put a telephone in front of each of them, and say “First one to get rid of Smith gets an extension.”

by CaddyJack on May 8, 2010 1:38 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god

by nohoops4u on May 8, 2010 3:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

dribbling too much is a character issue?

I know Boykins dribbled too much and was a defensive liability. Where I guess I differ is that I don’t think dribbling too much made him a bad character. I don’t equate dribbling too much to say…being a registered sex offender, or being charged with resisting arrest, or domestic abuse, or misdemeanor assualt, or DWI, or for that matter,sack grabbing. As far as I know, when in Denver, he played hard and was a good citizen off the court. In my opinion, he also had an inspiring personal story that spoke well of his overall character. Second shortest person in NBA history…Awesome! I don’t think he belonged in that sentence.

by passtheball on May 8, 2010 4:00 PM MDT reply actions  

I agree.

It’s not like he was on trial in Eagle County. You know who I mean.

by MMGraves on May 9, 2010 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

I didn't read this post yet But..

Let’s talk about how racist Nuggets fans are. Smith/CB/Melo/Kmart enter the game they get a golf clap. Bird enters the game and has been playing really really really really bad and the crowd goes wild. Only 2 things I can’t think of is 1) Fans at the Pepsi Center don’t know much and just cheer for the white guy. 2) See 1.

Quitter's People United Member #27.5

by RPN on May 8, 2010 4:55 PM MDT reply actions  

I wouldn't say "racist"

They cheer when K-Mart would block a shot or get a dunk. When Carmelo hits a three. When Chauncey starts the fast break.

They probably cheer for Andersen louder because he’s the ONLY white guy who plays on the team. I dunno. People are weird. Besides, they weren’t cheering so loud for him during the Nugget’s “playoff run”.

What Would Brian Boitano Do?
Joe Pavelski IS God!
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by Mini Hulk on May 8, 2010 5:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

The loudest cheers are for Carmleo and Chauncey

Bird gets cheers because he has been labeled(and is when healthy) the energy guy, the player who always hustles and sometimes makes some incredible intensity plays even though he isn’t the most talented, that has nothing to do with race. He’s like Ian Laperriere was for the Av’s or now Jason Giambi for the Rockies(although that more for his 2009 clutchitude).

Giro...Giro.....Giro!!!!!!!!
Quitter's People United member # 42

by Phil H. on May 8, 2010 7:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is ridiculous really.

They cheered for Bird because of his comeback story and energy. Not because he is white.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
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by SDcat09 on May 8, 2010 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yep

And it’s because there’s two things casual fans love: Blocked shots and dunks. Chris Andersen can do both. But then so can KMart…

"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter

by LACK on May 9, 2010 7:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

what

Quitter's People United: Member 12

by Uh on May 9, 2010 9:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

yeah I definitely hate carmelo. because he's black and puerto rican.

And I love bird. Gotta put his one block and four turnovers and stupid fouls and no points and ill-advised jumpers a game in.

Quitter's People United: Member 12

by Uh on May 9, 2010 9:58 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd for the undeniably obvious sarcasm

"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter

by LACK on May 9, 2010 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

I hate to agree with this but I do

Last season Anderson played REALLY well and earned applause. This season he was NOTHING like last season and I kept waiting for people to stop cheering so loudly for him when he came on the court. Nope, still tons of cheers. I don’t know the guy but I go to every game and I can see what they do not show on TV. This season he showed some disturbing tendencies. For example, if he missed a slam dunk, he would immediately hit the floor and lay there. Then he would have to go to the locker room for a while but then he would come back skipping in as if nothing happened. You would think that after watching nearly an entire season of lameness he would not get the cheers that he gets but he still does. To me it is baffling.
Now you take Nene on the other hand and he gets almost no love. Same for AAA and the same for K-Mart. Ask anyone from the NuggDoctor.com and they’ll tell you that I have never been a big fan of K-Mart because of all the injuries and problems but this season I was clapping and screaming every time he went on the court. Until the knee platelet thing he was kicking butt out on the court. He would be blocking shots like mad, playing awesome defense, getting rebounds and making his presence felt on the court and as soon as he missed a free-throw jackasses in the stands were standing up and cursing at him and saying all kinds of mean shit. Even if Nuggets were up by 20pts.

Tell me it’s not racist and I won’t believe you.

by MMGraves on May 9, 2010 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

You must be Bird's biggest hater.

What Would Brian Boitano Do?
Joe Pavelski IS God!
Quitter's Proud United Member #11

by Mini Hulk on May 9, 2010 12:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

Actually, I change that to No.

I don’t hate anyone. However, Anderson is no longer the Birdman. He can’t get the elevation he once had because the five year contract weighs too much.

by MMGraves on May 9, 2010 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, I'll agree with you on that.

I can’t really call him Birdman either. However, he had a bad year, so he has A LOT of making up to do next season. Bad knee or not, there’s no excuse to play that bad. Personally, I blame both Andersen and the training staff for him playing like garbage. I mean, come on. Missing a dunk, laying on the ground, and going into the locker room is a good indication that somebody shouldn’t be playing at all. If I was there, I would have sat him out for at least a month.
When Kenyon Martin sat for a month, Andersen was logging way too many minutes and he suffered big time. He needs to go back to being the 15 “energy guy” we know him as. He also needs to sit out longer when he gets hurt. he’s going to be 32 and it’s going to take longer for him to heal. He has to be smart about it, and if he doesn’t, the training staff needs to step in and say no.

We’re just going to have to get over the contract. The Front Office should have known that Andersen wasn’t planning on leaving Denver, and he probably would have accepted almost anything. My guess was that they panicked and, like everybody else, offered more money then they should of.

What Would Brian Boitano Do?
Joe Pavelski IS God!
Quitter's Proud United Member #11

by Mini Hulk on May 9, 2010 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's Andersen, not Anderson

Say Anderson and I think of Nick Anderson.

"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter

by LACK on May 9, 2010 9:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

according to chauncey billups

he says his own daughters are birdman fans. i am going to go out on a limb here and say cb1’s kids are not racist. birdman has a comic book persona and appearance that appeals to kids in general. he no doubt has his fans at the pepsi center. andersen also has fans in other cities that hate him. he plays to the crowd at home and on the road and people respond accordingly. let’s take your comment to it’s illogical conclusion. jazz fans hate andersen. does that mean people from utah hate white people because they boo the birdman?

pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god

by nohoops4u on May 9, 2010 5:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, not to be stereotypical or anything...

But Utah has a ton of white people out there…it’s just that they seem to hate everybody who has a tattoo on their body.

"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"Keep your head up and don't let anything get to you." - Dante Bichette Jr.
#3 + #6 + #15 + #1 = QPU #25, and no, it's not because of Anthony Carter

by LACK on May 9, 2010 9:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

If that was the case, they'd hate Deron Williams too.

What Would Brian Boitano Do?
Joe Pavelski IS God!
Quitter's Proud United Member #11

by Mini Hulk on May 10, 2010 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is a great article...

I’m still trying to think through all the implications, and it was enlightening to hear Andrew talk about Chapman’s role on Clough Talk.

I will say this, I’ve been very impressed with the front office in the past few years. I get the sense that they understand basketball, understand quantitative analysis as it relates to figuring out which players are good and why, and also understand the weaknesses on our team and how to address them. If you looked at the best front offices in the league, there’s a handful of teams with strong front offices and the Nuggets are in that conversation.

From a fan perspective, I’d hate to break this team up as I feel like some of their best work was done this offseason and they’ll figure out how to get us a championship. I mean, you’re paying players 2 million a year, why wouldn’t you want the best front office possible to evaluate those players. It’s like Cuban used to say, the players are my assets, why wouldn’t I hire as many coaches to develop these assets as possible? Who says that your operation has to be run by 1 guy (the job is probably overwhelming for one guy anyways)? I vote keep them both.

http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech

by chantech on May 9, 2010 5:57 PM MDT reply actions  

If either or both of them go

We still have that other guy on the payroll that does all the heavy lifting quantitatively, right?

by Artimus Mangilord on May 11, 2010 11:43 AM MDT reply actions  

Yeah, we'd still have Dean Oliver...

Although I get the sense that one guy isn’t enough? When I spoke to him last he was doing college scouting.

Teams like Portland and Houston have armies of these guys. Portland snatches up anyone who does anything remotely interesting in the APBR world.

Just personally, I know I could probably employ 10 full time guys doing charting, analysis, research just to answer questions I have.

http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech

by chantech on May 11, 2010 2:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

Pivot tables, my friend

j/k

Not surprised to hear that of Portland and H-town.

God I hate the offseason… lots of down time and speculation.

by Artimus Mangilord on May 11, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Lots to do

1. Tell Carter, Petro and Tacos not to let the door hit them on their collective behinds on the way out. All three of these guys are consistently bottom of the league in PER at their position.
2. Either move J.R. for a more consistent scorer off the bench or a big. I personally don’t think we should trade J.R. but it looks like the staff has had enough of his antics.
3. Move Nene’s contract for whatever you can get. I wouldn’t even be opposed to a Camby-type dump.
4. Go Ilgauskas with Martin’s contract, trade him somewhere that will buy him out, then sign him back at veteran’s minimum. He’d go for the idea in a heartbeat, and it lets us get talent without giving anything up. Plus he still gets his big bucks.
5. If you moved J.R. for a scorer, sign a free agent big, or vice versa. Shaq and J-O’Neal aren’t the same as they were, but Brad Miller can pass the ball like nobody’s business. If you got a big for J.R., then sign Shannon Brown.
6. Forget about getting into the draft. You’re loading up for one more year before people come off the books.

That said, here’s my dream situation:

1. Nuggets trade Nene and J.R. Smith to the Sacramento Kings for Carl Landry. Kings do it because they’re a year from contention, and turning two year albatrosses into expiring deals is a very profitable venture when you’re trying to stink and get into the lottery anyway. Getting Smith also helps their goal of getting more athletic in the backcourt. Landry is a small price to pay when they probably need to clear him for Derrick Favors or Greg Monroe anyway.

2. Nuggets trade Kenyon Martin to the New Orleans Hornets for James Posey and Emeka Okafor. Total dump on New Orleans’ end. They’d do this trade in a heartbeat.

3. Nuggets sign Kenyon Martin to 2 year Veteran’s Minimum contract.

Starting 5 is now Billups / Afflalo / Anthony / Martin / Okafor. You get the shot-blocking at the 5 that we’ve been seeking for 3 years and don’t have to give much up. Bench is Birdman, Lawson, Landry and Posey. Much more defensive team with a higher basketball IQ overall.

Cap:

Billups: 12 million
Afflalo: 1 million
Anthony: 16 million
Martin: 1-2 million
Okafor: 11 million
Posey: 6 million
Lawson: 1 million
Landry: 3 million
Birdman: 4 million

Total: 56 million, or about 3 over the anticipated cap. After you sign 3 randoms, you’re about 5-7 million over the cap. Team is more affordable, Landry / Okafor / Posey is much better than Nene / JR, and you maintain some amount of financial flexibility for life after Billups.

Fire those jabronis and hire me. I’ll take 500k a year.

by Nick C. on May 13, 2010 9:41 AM MDT reply actions  

kmart will never agree to a buyout

the key to a buyout is the player agrees to take less than he is owed in exchange for becoming a free agent. kmart will never play for the vet minimum either. sacramento will never take smith unless they intend to buy him out and get rid of him. denver will never take the contracts of akafor and posey. like the idea of getting shannon brown. great combo guard and will be able to easily adapt his game to what denver needs on a game to game basis.

pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
we're on a mission from god

by nohoops4u on May 13, 2010 3:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

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