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The Carmelo Anthony/Paul Pierce comparison...

Many Nuggets fans have been quick to compare Carmelo Anthony's surreal contract situation to that of Kobe Bryant's 2007 offseason trade demands.  Melo himself likens the circumstance to LeBron James's of last season.  But if we're looking for a more accurate analogy, Nuggets fans and Melo himself should be comparing his career to date and its future to Paul Pierce's.  

Star-divide

Carmelo Anthony's NBA career trajectory is eerily following that of the Boston Celtics' Paul Pierce.  And not just because they're both 6'7"-6'8"ish and weigh about 230 pounds.  Like a younger Pierce, Melo spent the early part of his career as a scoring-first small forward not all that interested in defense.  Like a younger Pierce, Melo's all-around game has improved with each passing season while his thoughts about his future have him openly questioning his present geographic location.  Like a younger Pierce, Melo throws his headband onto the floor drawing a technical foul at an inopportune time in a close game (okay, it only happened once but I can't think of anyone other than Melo and Pierce who have been stupid enough to do this during the end of a close game).

And like a younger Pierce, I don't foresee Melo winning a championship today but could see a scenario in which he wins one down the road.  Whether or not that's while wearing the jersey of the team that drafted him - a la Pierce - is a different matter altogether.

I'm not the first to point out the Melo/Pierce analogy.  Almost two weeks ago, die hard Celtics fan Bill Simmons wrote of the Melo situation:

"My advice: Instead of emulating your boys Bosh and LeDecoy and jumping to a higher-profile situation, you should emulate a guy like Paul Pierce, someone who had similar ups and downs in Boston, had chances to leave and wanted to stay because he valued being a Celtic, and because he valued the unwavering support of Boston fans."

And by no means was Simmons the first to see the similarities between the two small forwards.  Many bloggers have drawn upon the comparison in the recent past and during the 2008 NBA Finals, Pierce himself was asked about it by a reporter, to which he responded (classically):

"I've never gotten a DUI."

With so much attention being aimed at Melo's contract situation, revisiting the Pierce comparison is important.  A few weeks ago when Nate, Jeff and I wrote our varying proposals for how to deal with the Carmelo Anthony situation, I wrote the following with Pierce's younger years in Boston in mind...

"As much as I love what Melo has brought to Denver Nuggets basketball, I question if you can win a championship when your best player is a shoot-first small forward with limited production in other aspects of the game." 

This was red meat for the "Andrew hates Melo" crowd - a ludicrous myth that has taken a life of its own in the comments section of this site for months now - but I stand by that statement.  Prior to this season, Melo's game has resembled that of the great small forwards of yesteryear.  If you're an NBA aficionado, you know the names: Dominique Wilkins (my all-time favorite non-Nugget), Alex English, Bernard King, Terry Cummings, a younger Adrian Dantley, a younger Mark Aguirre...and a younger Paul Pierce.  I dissected this analogy in great detail in a 2008 column titled "In defense of Carmelo Anthony's 'defense'", in which I argued that I'd rather have Melo's outstanding scoring production than a better defensive player who can't score.  Of course, we'd all rather have a superstar who plays as such on both ends of the floor but there are only a handful of guys - if that - capable of doing so.  

Looking at Melo's career to date and at those other all-star and superstar small forwards' respective careers, an interesting trend emerges.  At the peak of their scoring prowess, not one of them appeared in an NBA Finals.  Not one.  Wilkins and King never got into a conference finals and English, Melo and a younger Pierce appeared in just one conference finals apiece.  A 30-year-old Pierce, a 31-year-old Dantley and a 29-year-old Aguirre didn't play in an NBA Finals until much later into their careers when they were big pieces of a better team puzzle and no longer solo scoring machines.

Seeing Paul Pierce playing now - with his bruising defense and save-myself-for-later offense - it's hard to believe that this guy once put up 26 points per game, was routinely among league leaders in free throw attempts and was a suspect defender.  But that's how he played when he was around Melo's age today (mid-to-late 20s).  Then, after several seasons of playoff failure and a brief taste of the conference finals followed by more playoff failure (or missing the postseason altogether), an unhappy Pierce almost demanded a trade that could have landed him in Chicago. 

Sound familiar?

We all know what happened for Pierce since.  Celtics management, rather than deal Pierce and rebuild anew, doubled-down on Pierce by surrounding him with Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen and a decent cast of role players.  All they've done since is appear in two out of the last three NBA Finals, taking home the trophy in 2008.  Pierce's scoring has gone down with age, but his field goal percentage, free throw percentage and three-point field goal percentage have improved.  Simply put, he has become a smarter player.

I'm seeing Melo follow a similar path.  Melo remains a scoring machine first (although curiously, his free throw attempts per game are an unacceptably low 6.4) but he is rebounding better, defending better and passing better.  Maybe he's ascending into the Paul Pierce Era of his own career a bit ahead of schedule, being just 26 years old.  But like his colleague in Boston, in the years to come Melo will score less, defend and rebound better and shoot more accurately (as he is already at a near 50% clip).  

Nuggets fans just hope he'll be doing it in Denver.

This is where the Pierce and Melo comparison falls apart.  The 2007-08 Celtics - having point guard sensation-to-be Rajon Rondo in place plus a high lottery pick to trade with - were able to maneuver to surround Pierce with amazing talent and solid role players before his opt-out year came up.  Melo, having the opt-out option at this season's end, doesn't give the Nuggets the luxury of assembling lottery picks and cap space to make moves after the season is over.  Whatever moves are available to them must be made now, as Cleveland did to bring in Shaquille O'Neal and then Antawn Jamison on behalf of retaining LeBron James last season...which only worked in hamstringing the Cavaliers cap flexibility for two more years.

Now I know what some of you are thinking: "Doesn't Andrew hate Melo?  Why is he comparing him to Paul Pierce who stayed in Boston to win a championship?"  Again, I don't hate Melo.  Never have.  I've at times been his biggest cheerleader and at others been his biggest critic.  Yes, I was one of the first to suggest trading Melo prior to the season's start if he didn't commit to signing that contract extension.  But I was also one of the first to suggest he be offered the extension in the first place.  Point being, there's a huge delta between "hate" and wanting to trade a player who appears to be turning down $65 million (during a recession, no less) to play basketball in Denver.  As noted by Simmons, Denver fans deserve better for their ticket dollars. 

When Pierce wanted out of Boston, the circumstances from the fan's perspective were quite different.  Unlike what the Kroenkes and those under them have done in Denver, Celtics management had done a horrific job surrounding Pierce with talent (remember the Rick Pitino and Chris Wallace Eras?  Yeeeesh) prior to 2007 and thus, very few Celtics fans - Simmons included - blamed Pierce for wanting out.

Conversely, the Melo situation puts Nuggets fans in a tough, contradictory spot.  While I don't blame those who are fed up with Melo for not signing the extension and not wanting to stay in Denver, I also don't blame those who think a little more passion from the fans might get #15 to ink that deal.  And yes, I can have it both ways, hence why I gladly signed the Melo petition launched over the weekend.

I don't know where this Carmelo Anthony situation is going to end up and neither do any of you.  I've advocated for a 30-game "wait" to see if doubling down on Melo - like the Celtics did with Pierce - is the way to go.  But if the Nuggets look to be going nowhere after 30 or so games, the Nuggets - due to their limited resources at present - must look to deal.  Nate once wrote that "Trading Melo is not an option".  I like to think that ending up empty-handed is not an option.

Many NBA journalists keep saying that Melo is "looking east", inferring that he wants to be a Knick, a Bull and would even settle for being a Net.  If it's true that Carmelo Anthony is looking east, perhaps he should look northeast to Boston where his mirror image was in a similar situation just three seasons ago, showed some loyalty to the organization that drafted him and the fans who supported him and will now go down in history as one of the great Celtics.  In the modern era of sports, it's rare to start and stay with the same team and win a championship while doing so.  Melo has that opportunity in Denver where by simply staying a few more seasons he becomes the greatest Nugget in franchise history.

Just yesterday, Melo told the New York Post's Peter Vecsey:

"I'm just like LeBron. It's all about winning. That's all I care about. I want the chance to compete at the championship level. All the other stuff is irrelevant."

Memo to Melo: LeBron James doesn't know the first thing about winning.  Paul Pierce does, and that's who you should be comparing yourself to.

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now all we gotta do is find a

KG, Rondo and Jesus.

let's go nuggets! who u wit?
firegeorgekarl.com

by 808inDenver on Nov 17, 2010 10:47 AM MST reply actions  

haha

don’t forget shrek and donkey!

by moonchild808 on Nov 17, 2010 8:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Just an excellent post....

Seems I find myself (mostly) in agreement with your stuff.

My concern goes first to what is best for the franchise, and thereby Denver and its fans. (But, boy, admittedly you can argue that six ways to Sunday)

Great comparison and analysis.

by TakeFive on Nov 17, 2010 10:50 AM MST reply actions  

It is too late for me to read this article.

I must go to bed. What a pity. But I really like this kind of comparison.

by Myka on Nov 17, 2010 11:04 AM MST reply actions  

solid writeup. if we are modeling ourselves after the lakers or celtics

they went big time with their trades and free agent signings. Gasol/KG/Ray Allen. it’s going to require a huge blockbuster trade like that. The only way that’ll happen for us if we involve Chauncey and/or Nene plus a guy like AAA or Lawson. Not some little rinky-dink trade involving JR or K-mart to bring in a rotation big man. I’m willing to do it, are you?

by skithebert on Nov 17, 2010 11:05 AM MST reply actions  

Yes

That’s exactly right. We’re gonna have to sacrifice if we want to keep Melo, and that means Chauncey, Nene, K-Mart, etc.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 17, 2010 1:06 PM MST up reply actions  

Chauncey is the heart of this team

Sacrifice Nene… I’m done with his softness.

Quitter's People United Member #35

by CombatChuk on Nov 17, 2010 1:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Did you think he was soft last night

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:20 PM MST up reply actions  

That's the thing

He was beasting last night, but is a marshmello another night

Quitter's People United Member #35

by CombatChuk on Nov 17, 2010 1:38 PM MST up reply actions  

He has been going hard for a few games in a row this season.

Might be the change of hair

Maybe I do have the right.... wait, what's that stuff??? - Homer Simpson
QPU #381

by Army of Nugs on Nov 17, 2010 6:27 PM MST up reply actions  

He was a big crybaby last night.

Turiaf put a little D on him and Nene started flailing and kicking like he does when he’s pissed. He doesn’t belong in the NBA.

by MMGraves on Nov 17, 2010 10:22 PM MST up reply actions  

Turiaf fouled out after like 3 minutes.

I guess what I’m saying is he was probably a bit on the overly physical side of the whistle. Not that I’ve ever accused Nene of being tough.

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by ruralnugs on Nov 18, 2010 6:14 AM MST up reply actions  

Nene lover

Would you rather have Darko??

by TakeFive on Nov 17, 2010 1:21 PM MST up reply actions  

Well, if we're talking about Donnie Darko

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:24 PM MST up reply actions  

Haha

Honestly, I had to google, but tis good.

by TakeFive on Nov 17, 2010 1:35 PM MST up reply actions  

i would much rather trade chauncey than nene

but both should be made available. this team has little heart anyway so losing chauncey wouldn’t be a huge loss.

by skithebert on Nov 17, 2010 1:25 PM MST up reply actions  

Yep

Nene is very under rated, though admittedly he doesn’t clean the boards, but great position player so others can.

by TakeFive on Nov 17, 2010 1:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Under this scenario

The responsibility is to BOTH Melo and the organization to collaborate on a plan that makes the Nuggets competitive over the long term.

Can anyone see this front office having the balls to pull off a move to improve the team while keeping Melo here? As I said yesterday, that is the $65 million question.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

by Jeffrey Morton on Nov 17, 2010 11:21 AM MST reply actions  

great write up Andy

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

by Jeffrey Morton on Nov 17, 2010 11:22 AM MST up reply actions  

couldn't agree more...

…about mutually shared responsibility. I just feel like IF Melo commits to staying, the organization will commit to building a winner here. The Kroenkes have historically been willing to spend on talent. Whether the fans have agreed on their choices of players or not is a different mater.

Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com

by Andrew Feinstein on Nov 17, 2010 11:28 AM MST via mobile up reply actions  

I wonder though if the FO is gunshy after the Kmart contract.

I know they would never go that large but I could see why they might be worried about it.

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 11:32 AM MST up reply actions  

I'm sure they're gun shy, but...

Signing Al Harrington this past summer spoke volumes. It showed that even though the Nuggets are way into the luxury tax, the Kroenkes will spend to improve the team.

Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com

by Andrew Feinstein on Nov 17, 2010 11:50 AM MST up reply actions  

Well

Denver wants Melo to sign the extension, with the understanding that they are going to have cap space and improve the team after next summer when K-Mart’s poisonous contract goes away and the Nuggets make decisions on Afflalo, Nene, and Chauncey.

Melo wants the team to improve now. But Denver doesn’t want to make a big move without assurance that Melo is staying. That’s why they will not trade Nene, Lawson, AAA, or Chauncey without knowing that Carmelo is here long term.

twitter.com/skitalicious
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by runningdonut on Nov 17, 2010 12:20 PM MST up reply actions  

just playing devils advocate here

Stan Kroenke is one of the leading “budget hawks” of the NBA…he has been very clear that he wants to cut player salaries and costs, and there are owners who want a hard cap.

Considering those constraints for the upcoming CBA, does Melo have the assurance he needs to sign the extension? Would the Kroenke’s go ahead an cut cost even if Melo stays? By that token, would it be in their best interest to keep Melo if they want to have a model similar to the Avs?

Like I said, just playing devil advocate.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

by Jeffrey Morton on Nov 17, 2010 12:28 PM MST up reply actions  

OK Mr. Devil.... tsk, tsk.

Given they have the 5th highest payroll, without the results….

But here’s the key, the Nuggets may be positioned as well as anybody to compete for talent under the “new” rules. It might just be a great time to be a Buyer.

by TakeFive on Nov 17, 2010 12:33 PM MST up reply actions  

Point taken

Not to cry over spilled milk here, but I can’t help thinking what could have been had Kroenke committed to spending last year as he did this year with the Harrington contract. It’s clear that the Kroenkes have been willing to pay to build a winner – the 2008 Iverson season and this year being prime examples when the Nuggets were among the highest salaried teams in the NBA.

Then the 2009 and 2010 seasons, the best in franchise history – Stan did everything, including mortgaging the future by throwing away picks to save money. Then all of a sudden Melo calls him out on it and now he’s willing to spend again. Whatever, it’s water under the bridge now. But you have a point.

Ultimately, this doesn’t help the situation at hand. If Melo does not sign the extension by the deadline, the Nuggets have to consider trading him. The Nuggets should be very strong competitors this year if they play as a team, but we should be ready to move if that never materializes. There’s no other choice

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Quitter's People United Member #13

by runningdonut on Nov 17, 2010 12:55 PM MST up reply actions  

Gotta be at least 6-7 games over .500 by Christmas

for Melo to be interested in sticking around and for the Nugs to want to ride out Melo’s contract for that “last run” at the championship with Melo and risking not trading him.

Denver first.

by margabelle on Nov 17, 2010 11:35 AM MST reply actions  

still drinkin that Melo haterade I see.

Melo’s leading SFs in rebounding

Was it really difficult for you to be one of the first to advocate signing Melo to an extension? That idea is nothing short of Einstein. I’ve been preaching that idea since they signed Melo to his first extension, but good one nonetheless.

The onus needs to fall largely on the FO. It’s not like it’s news that we need a solid and consistent all-star type of big man. Hasn’t that been more than obvious for 2+ seasons now? So yeah, Melo’s given them plenty of time to make that happen.

by NugNugz on Nov 17, 2010 11:40 AM MST reply actions  

Andrew...

Anyone who thinks you are unfair to Melo is on crack.

I think you’ve been fair to him since I’ve been a Stiff reader. Your criticisms are apt and your praise justified.

I, for one, have been very impressed with Melo this season. Not his game, it is the same as it has been, more or less, but just his honesty about the situation. At least he isn’t playing Denver like LeBron played Cleveland. And that alone means Melo will get my respect no matter where he ends up.

If he signs with another team next year or we trade him away tomorrow, I’ll always clap for Melo, because you can’t argue that he did amazing things for this franchise.

Quitters people united, member no. ∞
Infinite quit

by Fly Agaric on Nov 17, 2010 11:49 AM MST reply actions  

It should be mentioned....

That I really, really don’t like Paul Pierce.

Melo is pretty cool, though.

Quitters people united, member no. ∞
Infinite quit

by Fly Agaric on Nov 17, 2010 11:56 AM MST up reply actions  

Hmmmm

That was actually a good write up. I agree with most of it too….especially the part about us fans being REALLY passionate about our desires and our favorite players!
(but aren’t you going against the “let’s not end up being humilated like the Cleveland fans were by showing how much they didn’t want LeBron to leave” theory?)
but I digress….
We seem be at an impass like you said…a catch 22…the FO can’t surround Melo unless he signs, and Melo can’t sign if the FO doesn’t surround him…
Goddamnit.

by Raugesen on Nov 17, 2010 12:03 PM MST via mobile reply actions  

My Trading Melo is not an Option piece ...

… more about the landscape of the trade partners and incoming players at that point in time above anything else. Getting equal value for Melo is still not looking good (Gallo looked just awful last night, as did Randolph), so it’ll be very interesting to see what is the best course of action moving forward.

Denver Stiffs.com
Denver.SBNation.com

by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2010 12:15 PM MST reply actions  

I will spit up and spit out...

if they trade with the Knicks. Best players according to value and expectations are Fields and Chandler, though given a need for length, Gallo is intriguing.

Make it Houston or the Nets or…. anybody But the Knicks.

by TakeFive on Nov 17, 2010 12:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Also, nice write-up Andy.

Melo and PP definitely have a lot in common player wise.

Denver Stiffs.com
Denver.SBNation.com

by Nate Timmons on Nov 17, 2010 12:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Nice read Feinstein, as usual

But can I give you some advice for next time? As much as you love and appriciate your readers, don’t listen to a damn thing they have to say about you. You’re the only one that knows you don’t hate Melo, and that’s all that should matter. You don’t need to explain to those who actually have some common sense that the idea of you hating Melo is ludicrous in the middle of a column that has nothing to do with you.

Now, expanding a bit on where you left off. The thing that I think has been entirely underrated in all of this, is how big of a role the Miami Heat played in what’s happened with our team since this past Summer. I guarantee you that if Lebron James had stayed in Cleveland, Melo would have never asked to be traded or made his desires clear about not wanting to be here anymore. Sor for the Miami Heat haters out there, that’s some more fuel to your fire.

Al Harrington via Twitter:

"I personally couldn’t sleep with $65 million sitting on the table."

Gotta love Al.

Here’s what I think should happen. Melo has said him and Uriji have great lines of communication, and if that’s true, then Uriji needs to somehow convince Melo between now and Feb. that he is going to do to Melo exactly what the Celtics did to Pierce, except here in Denver. He has to sell this idea to Melo and get him to sign the extension by Feb. and if he doesn’t, then you trade Melo because if he can’t even trust you, then he shouldn’t be playing in Denver anyhow.

I really do think that Melo just got jealous of what happened in Miami this past Summer, and since then has cooled down a bit to being traded. I still think if he had the chance he’d sign with the Knicks or Chicago, but I do believe that at least now he’s open to the idea of resigning in Denver, where he wasn’t before. It’s all up to Uriji at this point in time. If he can work some magic I can see Melo resigning, but if he does nothing between now and Feb. and simply relies on Melo to have a change of heart, then the Melo Era in Denver will be over come mid-Winter. You best believe that.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 17, 2010 1:01 PM MST reply actions  

I mentioned this over the summer

that if the Heat struggle, the idea of a super-best friends team may become less appealing to Melo. That seems to be exactly what has come to pass. Maybe he’s now looking at the Lakers and Celtics as the true models for building a championship team. I’d say we are a lot closer to that than NJ or NYK to building a team like that.

I think we can all agree what seemed like an inevitability, now seems very much less so. It may still be likely he leaves, but it’s not a guarantee at this point.

by skithebert on Nov 17, 2010 1:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah

The thing about NJ and NY that makes no sense to me (if it’s true Melo is all about winning) is that they are far worse off than we are. Brook Lopez has looked aweful to start the season, and I don’t think he’s gonna turn into that real dominant C everyone though. And it’s not like Devin Harris is gonna win you any titles either. With NY, there are just too many holes to even mention. So I’m having a hard time understandind why Melo would want to go to either of those places if winning was the most important thing to him. If that was the case, like Andrew has said, look no further than Denver, CO.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 17, 2010 1:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Great point!

The Heat struggling could be one of the best things to happen to our Nuggets.

Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com

by Andrew Feinstein on Nov 17, 2010 1:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Have a free agency question for anyone to answer

I had this idea that he’s not signing the extension ala Wade, not LeBitch. Meaning the nuggets could have the potential to sign 2 almost max deals(new CBA or old) and then resign him via Bird rights? So they could potentially get baby Gasol and 1 other guy, then Melo resigns? I don’t know if I’m nuts but I’ve been thinking this up since the heat things went down. Please let me know what you’ll think.

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by The U.N. Fab Five on Nov 17, 2010 1:10 PM MST via mobile reply actions  

That's really interesting

But that would mean Denver is only where Melo wants to be, and I don’t buy that 100%. Why would he have gone through everything he did this Summer to try and get traded if he realized that?

That said, that is something Uriji should mention to Melo in trying to convince him to stay because it’s so true. The only thing is there arn’t the level of great talented free agnets this year as there were this past summer. But still, you coudl potentially surround Melo with an extremely talented group of FAs if we played our cards right.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 17, 2010 1:20 PM MST up reply actions  

i dont think we have the space

we wont even have the space to sign another max person if melo re-signs with us.

bc Melo, Nene (most likely), Bird, Big Al, Ty are all still under contract. also, we may or may not match AAA, since hes a RFA. and we have the option of decling CB1.

let's go nuggets! who u wit?
firegeorgekarl.com

by 808inDenver on Nov 17, 2010 1:20 PM MST up reply actions  

melo – 18M
nene – 11.6M
al – 6.2M
bird – 4.2M
kool – 1.6M
ty – 1.6M

that totals ~43-44M. i think, this year’s salary cap is at ~58M. plus we’re not factoring in matching AAA offers and either picking up CB1s option or re-signing him to a cheaper, longer contract. we also need to factor in “holds” for the roster spots still up for grabs, which could be another 5-6M.

let's go nuggets! who u wit?
firegeorgekarl.com

by 808inDenver on Nov 17, 2010 1:28 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure he'd still have a cap hold

until we renounce his bird rights. If we renounce his bird rights, his salary and cap hold come off the books and he’s treated like any other FA. If we keep his bird rights, that means we have to keep that salary amount allocated toward the salary cap until he either signs, we renounce his rights outright, or we trade him.

by TChizza on Nov 17, 2010 7:16 PM MST up reply actions  

yup

or else the heat would have signed 3 max FAs then signed Wade last.

let's go nuggets! who u wit?
firegeorgekarl.com

by 808inDenver on Nov 17, 2010 7:17 PM MST up reply actions  

We'd certianly have to make sacrifices

If Chauncey wanted to stay we’d have to make it clear to him that anything over 5 mil per year wouldn’t work for us. Same would go for AAA and Forbes of course.

But say Melo signs the extension, we resign Nene for about 10 mil per year and we resign Chauncey and AAA for about 4-5 mil per year each. That puts us at around 55 mil and if our front office is willing to spend we could potentially land two more players at about 10 mil per year such as Gasol, Randolph, ect. And that’s not even mentioning guys like David West, Greg Oden. Jamal Crawford, Carl Landry, Samuel Dalembert, Boris Diaw, Kendrick Perkins, etc. who could all be had for less than 10 mil per year.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 17, 2010 1:30 PM MST up reply actions  

the cap is at 58M this season

we cant sign anyone over the cap.

let's go nuggets! who u wit?
firegeorgekarl.com

by 808inDenver on Nov 17, 2010 1:34 PM MST up reply actions  

if our salary is already at 55M

we can only sign someone to either the MLE or the difference between our salary and salary cap. in this situation, we’d probably opt for the MLE signing. once youre over or near the cap, and youve used up your MLE, you can only sign people to the vet min.

this is all assuming in the new CBA there is not hard cap, the MLE stays and the salary cap is around the same figure as this year.

thats my understanding. someone who is more knows more can chime in.

let's go nuggets! who u wit?
firegeorgekarl.com

by 808inDenver on Nov 17, 2010 1:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah

My situation was really just an example of what we might be able to do. I’m sure our front office could make it work, I just don’t know how exactly.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 17, 2010 1:52 PM MST up reply actions  

Not taking umbrage with you mentioning Oden

but seriously haven’t we all seen a few too many knee injuries here with Kmart. Who knows if he’ll get past all his injuries but I’d rather not find out on the Nugs. That said it isn’t my money but the thing that pisses me off is after this year the Nugs are able to clear cap space to sign people who might put this team over the top.

Unfortunately we may never find out if this could be a title team and that pisses me off.

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by ruralnugs on Nov 17, 2010 5:51 PM MST up reply actions  

It was litterally just announced

Oden to miss rest of season with knee surgery. He was just a guy I threw out ther but at this point he might never even play in the NBA again. What a bust.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 17, 2010 8:59 PM MST up reply actions  

I can see into the future

I think good things are gonna happen for me. Sandy Clough did say we’re hardcore nuggets fans and I believe he even said we’re intelligent. I would assume he wanted to offer a disclaimer that he wasn’t talking about ruralnugs but didn’t want to feel my internet wrath.

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by ruralnugs on Nov 18, 2010 6:16 AM MST up reply actions  

Hey guys....since there isn't a good place at DS for this, I wanted to let you

a posted a link to an article about George Karl that I think is important.

I know you post the Golden Nuggets but it seems like it’s not everyday. Is there a way to do that so we can discuss all the various topics going on without having to start a fanshot or fanpost for news that we find…..and we don’t end up thread hijacking or being redundant. It seems like the most recent post is where we post new and other things so it gets kind of confusing..

Does this question make sense? I

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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:10 PM MST reply actions  

It does...

We probably need to find a message board-type tool for DS readers to use. I’ll ask the powers that be at SB Nation what’s available to us.

Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com

by Andrew Feinstein on Nov 17, 2010 1:32 PM MST up reply actions  

I know that that at Purple Row they do a daily Rockpile

that is all the news of the Rockies or baseball related of that day or the previous day, pretty much like your Golden Nuggets. I think the Golden Nuggets works great as long as it’s posted daily. Fanshots and fanposts are still utilized a lot but it’s a good way to have an amalgamation

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Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, but the fanshots are so far down the page no one really ever looks at them.

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Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:38 PM MST up reply actions  

And I would hate for any cool news that anyone finds to be lost because of

where it’s located.

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:39 PM MST up reply actions  

I've been posting fanshots for a while now

But if they’re ever real important Nate or Andrew usually post them on the front page. You can always make a fanpost too. But I understand what you’re saying. I read that article you posted, thatnks for that. It was interesting.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 17, 2010 1:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Problem with fanposts is that it requires 75 words to put it there.

and really sometimes I don’t want to write 5 words about the news article until I read what other people have to say and it sets me to thinking….

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2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:56 PM MST up reply actions  

yea i actually prefer the layout here

news and links can be found anywhere. especially the fanshots. the unique ideas, analysis and perspectives are what i want to read.

by skithebert on Nov 17, 2010 1:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Well this wouldn't really change that at all....

not one little bit.

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:52 PM MST up reply actions  

We should be doing a Golden Nuggets piece daily, except...

The problem is that there’s not enough Nuggets news to generate a daily Golden Nuggets. What happens is you end up just re-posting Denver Post articles. We should, however, be doing three Golden Nuggets per week. Maybe we should make it a FanPost so it resides atop the right-hand column and doesn’t interfere with the main content on the home page?

I’ll discuss with Nate and Jeff.

Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com

by Andrew Feinstein on Nov 17, 2010 1:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Well, I don't think its a problem to re-post a DP article because some people

might not have seen it and it could be a good discussion point. And would help to keep the writers analytical/opinion pieces commentary on the topic of the piece….

Optimism Warrior
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Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:45 PM MST up reply actions  

I mean not repost the article...just post a link.....

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2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Just my opinion......:)

Not a big deal…

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:48 PM MST up reply actions  

I'd rather talk about Evan Longoria....

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Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:39 PM MST up reply actions  

You're good...

I was back to googling again, hehe.

by TakeFive on Nov 17, 2010 1:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Is it really all about winning for Melo?

“I’m just like LeBron. It’s all about winning. That’s all I care about. I want the chance to compete at the championship level. All the other stuff is irrelevant.”

Exactly. Last year the Knicks and the Nets combined to win 41 games. The Nuggets? 53.
In 2008 the two teams combined to win 66 games. The Nuggets? 54.
So in the past two seasons, the Nuggets have won the same number of games as the Knicks and the Nets COMBINED. Except that the Nuggets won a dozen or so playoff games in that time as well. How many, exactly, did the Knicks and the Nets manage?

by NuggBuckets on Nov 17, 2010 1:56 PM MST reply actions  

I took that to mean he was saying that the draw of the "Big City Lights" isn't what he's about.

Much like LeBron going to Miami. I mean if LeBron was all about “Big City Lights” wouldn’t he have gone to New York right?

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Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Nov 17, 2010 1:58 PM MST up reply actions  

He's just saying

If that’s true about Melo, why would he want to go to NY or NJ? It was clear that Miami was going to be talented and be in position to win titles every year, that’s why Lebron went there. But you can’t say that same thing about NY or NJ.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 17, 2010 2:02 PM MST up reply actions  

Great Post Andrew

I don’t get into many of the philosophical debates as I try not to take this stuff too seriously. It is a game after all (We talkin’ bout practice…..) however…

I’m over the whole thing whether he stays or goes quite frankly. Go. Stay. Don’t care anymore. You play with the Nuggets, I’m going to cheer. You leave, I’ll give you a small applause for all of your efforts for 8 years here and then I will boo you mercilessly. Just make up your mind and be man enough to say you want out if that is the case. IMO, the worst thing that James did was leave Cleveland hanging while every worthwhile FA was getting signed. Melo has repeatedly said that he wants to keep his options open meaning…he isn’t signing the extension by the trade deadline. I don’t know if any amount of fan support will keep him here…Again, look at LeBron. Melo doesn’t want to be labeled “the bad guy” like LeBron but he already is by playing both sides of the fence.

As far as the Knicks/Nets being terrible….well sure, in 2011. I think everyone in New York is eyeballing that point guard down in New Orleans in 2012. Put a few pieces together in 2011, add CP…..championship…right?

BTW, Utah is 7-4. I’m just saying.

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by Murph3000 on Nov 17, 2010 4:38 PM MST reply actions  

the point everyone is forgetting is that

the 2011 and 2012 free agency class is essentially the same due to the lockout being emminent

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by The U.N. Fab Five on Nov 17, 2010 7:10 PM MST reply actions  

that not accurate

if a lockout the 2012 class would be the 2011 class plus additional talent,

the 2011 class would be weak.

One of those if this then that statements if lockout 2012 will look like 2011 but 2011 will never look like 2012 with or without lockout.

by nsink on Nov 19, 2010 1:34 PM MST up reply actions  

The top guys and the seniors will still come out in 2011

In the event of a lockout…. yes it won’t be the best draft class ever. But there will be plenty of talent up for grabs. Plenty of hungry legit NBA talent ready to work. There shouldn’t be an excuse for any NBA team to downplay the draft or sit it out because they are scared of something they can’t really control.

Besides, Alec Burks will probably come out next year. Go Buffs!

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by runningdonut on Nov 19, 2010 6:02 PM MST up reply actions  

Beasley has been BEASTIN lately

if rubio ever comes over, kahn might actually have a decent team. who would have thought…

im kinda interested to see how beasley/love turn out as the season progresses.

let's go nuggets! who u wit?
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by 808inDenver on Nov 17, 2010 9:13 PM MST reply actions  

I was just thinking that tonight

But no excuses for Kahn. That dude could have had one hell of a team right now but has made some of the worst decisions I’ve ever seen from a GM since he got the job. Hiring Rambis, signing Darko to a 4 year 20 million dollar contract, trading away Al Jefferson for scraps because he “didn’t fit the system”, passing on guys like Demarcus Cousins, Stephon Curry, Brandon Jennings and stockpiling PG’s like my grandma hoards antiques. Yeah, everyone has a plan, but it’s how long it takes for that plan to come to fruition that really matters. He could have been the OKC of the East, instead the T-Wolves are gonna be in the lottery again this year and quite possible for a long time in the future. The only good move he’s mad was trading for Beasley, because he’s starting to look like the Carmelo Anthony-type player everyone thought he would be coming our of college. It’s just too bad because he really could have had something special.

Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!

by GoldenNugget on Nov 18, 2010 2:34 AM MST up reply actions  

no way can you compare melo to terry cummings

cummings was rookie of the year for THE CLIPPERS. he averaged 25 points and 12 rebounds AS A ROOKIE. cummings was a force at BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. at 6’10" cummings could play any position along the front line and was considered a power forward and center. totally unselfish, team 1st and complete player. celtics’ coach doc rivers was a rookie the same year as cummings and drafted in the 2nd round. now that is a deep draft.

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by nohoops4u on Nov 17, 2010 9:29 PM MST reply actions  

Melo may be like Paul Pierce was as a player but there are some key extraneous differences

Denver does not have a legitimate big man like Garnett.
Doc Rivers seems like a more hands on coach than Karl.
Better player development on the Celtics than on the Nuggets. With Denver it seems like you leave the team with what you came to the team with. Celtics under Rivers seem to have more skills after being there a while.

by MMGraves on Nov 17, 2010 10:28 PM MST reply actions  

If it brings us a super piece back, I'd bite the bullet.

Boston’s championship and current team is only possible due to their horrid season. SA’s three titles are only possible due to Robinson getting injured for a year and them landing Tim Duncan. I have absolutely no problems tanking for 1 season if the light at the end of the tunnel has championship possibilities. Heck, you can make a valid argument that the Lakers only start reeling off championships again because they sucked and landed the #10 pick which netted them Bynum (he may be injured but when he plays, he’s a game-changer, note the last Finals series) and obviously the Gasol trade.

by TChizza on Nov 18, 2010 6:32 AM MST up reply actions  

I'd say there's more allure with being a Celtic than a Nugget

Sure for Paul Pierce the Celts weren’t very good for awhile. But the mystic of playing for the Celtics has to be higher than playing for the Nuggets.
Also, say the FO and Melo, agree to make some changes via free agency or trade, are there any players comparable to Allen and KG to go after? You know savvy veteran with a few miles but is still considered to be at the top of their game? Then look at players entering free agency that meet those criteria. Top of my head is Steve Nash. Not sure but heard his name a few times in trade rumors. Vince Carter, no thanks.
I think something’s gotta get done via trade, and Denver doesn’t have the assets talent wise or contract wise to make a big enough splash.

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by Melo'sPersonofSeattle on Nov 18, 2010 3:33 AM MST via mobile reply actions  

agree

i love the Nugs, but playing for a franchise that has never even been to the finals is not like playing for the celtics one of the 2 best franchise in the NBA.

by nsink on Nov 19, 2010 1:36 PM MST up reply actions  

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