Are NBA games fixed?...
Now that Tim Donaghy is talking, so are NBA fans worldwide. And the question on everyone's mind (except Lakers fans) is: are NBA games fixed? What if I told you: sort of, but the problems with NBA refereeing can go away with three simple solutions.
Watching disgraced former NBA referee Tim Donaghy's interview on "60 Minutes" last night, here are my reactions - as a fan of a small market team - to Donaghy's four most debated allegations. At the end I'll give my very simple solutions to solve the many problems - all legitimate whether you believe Donaghy's honesty or not - that Donaghy has brought to light...
Based on insider information, including referee crews, Donaghy could pick the winner 75-80% of the time.
This one I believe 100%. I've talked to a number of people affiliated with the league in the past who have told me that if they could bet on games (rightfully illegal if you work for or with the NBA), they'd be right over 75% of the time. Think about your own workplace for a moment. Think about all the secrets, off-the-record and under-the-radar information you know about everyone around you. Now transplant that to the NBA, and if you were a league employee of any sort (coach, player, trainer, ref, etc), you'd know all kinds of details that the average gambling fan would never know - ranging from personal problems with the players and coaches to ref biases to health issues unreported. It's the very definition of "insider training."
Certain referees have biases - good or bad - against certain players and coaches.
I was beside myself in shock to hear this one! (I'm being sarcastic in case you didn't pick up on that.) As my stepfather would proudly say: "No shit, Sherlock". I've often written on this blog that the fundamental problem with NBA refereeing is that they ref the player and not the play (borrowing that line from my Lakers fan cousin Paul). This has been going on since the NBA's infancy and will forever continue. This is also why I can't stand players who whine with officials because I believe it exacerbates the problem. At the end of the day, refs are human beings and if they're getting barked at constantly by the same player (read: Smith, J.R.) and perhaps in an inappropriate manner, the refs will inevitably - even if it's just subconscious - screw the player with bad calls.
Even though he bet on games that he was refereeing, Donaghy didn't let that influence how he called the game.
Even though the FBI claims that this statement holds up, I'm still not buying it. As part of their "Outside the Lines" piece on this whole Donaghy fiasco, ESPN's Scott Van Pelt probed Donaghy a bit further on this one but Donaghy is standing by his statement. I just can't imagine a degenerate gambler unable to resist blowing the whistle here or there to favor a bet he made, especially in garbage time.
The NBA has a star system and refs are told to call games a certain way to ensure big market teams led by big stars end up victorious.
There's no question that the overall NBA benefits from having its big market teams and big stars competing in June every summer. That said, I've never thought that the NBA can outright fix games through their officials but rather, can "nudge" outcomes in certain directions. I've also never bought that an edict comes from NBA commissioner David Stern's office to call games in one way or the other, but do think that it's implied as to how a game should be called among the refereeing fraternity. (If a memo was sent from NBA headquarters to officials to sway games in a specific direction, don't you think one would have leaked out by now? Just ask Tiger Woods how well secrecy via digital communication goes over in 2009.)
We've seen a "star system" time and time again since the NBA's inception (mostly benefiting the Lakers recently and Michael Jordan's Bulls in years past as current examples) and as a Nuggets fan, I've learned to live with it. I've always believed that when you're playing a team like the Lakers or the Celtics and it's in the NBA's best interest for them to win, it just means you - as the small market team - have to have a better game plan, play harder, avoid mistakes and keep your mouth shut with the refs. Make no mistake about it: the Nuggets didn't lose to the Lakers in the 2009 Western Conference Finals because of bad officiating. Bennett Salvatore didn't throw two errant inbounds passes for Denver or light up the Nuggets like Kobe Bryant did in the first half of Game 6 to seal the series for Los Angeles.
But what about the 2002 Sacramento Kings, you ask? The Kings didn't lose the 2002 WCF to the Lakers due to bad officiating either, but certainly lost one key game, Game 6, due to horrendous officiating that swayed the Lakers victory (I'm sorry Lakers fans, but the 15 foul shot disparity is too great to ignore). But whomever ref'd game Game 7 didn't miss the numerous free throws - 14 missed freebies in total on 53% FT shooting - that cost the Kings that series. Now Game 7 of the 2000 WCF with the Trail Blazers is a different story. That was a blatant example of the NBA aiding and abetting the Lakers to victory. The free throw disparity was Lakers 37, Blazers 16: an abomination that the NBA should forever be embarrassed about.
So if you're scoring at home, I'm buying about half of what Donaghy is saying...but already knew/assumed most of that stuff about NBA refereeing in the first place. Which brings up the main argument against Donaghy's accusations: that he's feeding into a preconceived stereotype about NBA refs that all NBA fans - sans myopic, moronic, rose-colored-glasses Lakers fans - already believed was true anyway. In other words, he's throwing fuel on an already simmering fire.
To top things off for Nuggets fans, several of our players - former and current - have been in the eye of this Donaghy storm. During the "60 Minutes" interview, they replayed a Nuggets/Jazz game from January 6th, 2007. A game in which Donaghy claims that the refs were essentially out to get Allen Iverson for having berated referee Steve Javie. Donaghy asserts that Iverson got hacked routinely and calls weren't made and that Iverson was called often for "palming" (i.e. traveling) more frequently than normal as retribution for Iverson's behavior towards Javie. Before you leap to conclusions, read CBSSports.com's Ken Berger column debunking Donaghy's claims about this game, citing that Iverson took more free throw attempts than any other player and was the victim of just one blatant non-call on Mehmet Okur.
The second Nugget whose name came up today was Chauncey Billups, whom Donaghy - in that "Outside the Lines" piece - claims is disliked by some officials. I'm not surprised, actually. Billups may be a great leader, great community member and great player (yes, yes and yes), but he's a whiner. And so is Carmelo Anthony, J.R. Smith, Kenyon Martin and before this season, you could throw Iverson, Marcus Camby, Dahntay Jones and Linas Kleiza onto the All-Whining Team, too. Maybe I watch the Nuggets too much to fairly compare their constant complaining against the complaining of other teams, but other than the Spurs and Kobe Bryant, are there bigger whiners with the refs in the NBA than our Nuggets? Hence why we haven't gotten a lot of favorable calls over the years, and I've mentioned this ad nauseum on this site in the past.
But back to the title of this column: Are NBA games fixed? Sort of, but not in a way that a good game plan can't overcome (Lakers/Blazers Game 7 is an extreme example that I've had trouble finding a duplicate of). If I thought NBA games were fixed or premeditated in any way, I wouldn't give the NBA a nickel of my money for tickets and merchandise, and certainly wouldn't spend the hours I devote to covering the Nuggets and the NBA with this site.
That said, Donaghy has a lot of valid points that must be addressed and I just so happen to have solutions to the three main problems that have made NBA refereeing a running joke as of late.
Solution #1: Referee "stats" must be made transparent and available
How is it that I know how many times Ty Lawson gets his shot blocked per game but don't know how many times Bennett Salvatore calls traveling per game? Or how many times Dick Bavetta calls offensive charges per game? Or how many times Bavetta calls offensive charges against the Nuggets specifically at Pepsi Center vs. on the road? Long ago suggested by Mavericks owner Mark Cuban and recently proposed by ESPN.com's Bill Simmons, we MUST have transparent statistics for referees. The NBA claims that it keeps detailed records to review their refs. If this is true, where are these records and why aren't they online for everyone to see? Moreover, I suspect many NBA teams (hopefully including the Nuggets) keep their own internal "ref stats" so they can make the necessary adjustments when facing a Salvatore vs. a Bavetta vs. a Javie, etc. Make these stats public already, dammit!
Solution #2: Disallow players from talking to officials
I hate to legislate emotion out of the game like the NFL does, but if you want to know where referee bias comes from, it comes from interacting with the players too much. Players like Chauncey and Kobe may be perpetual whiners, but there's a method to their madness: they figure that by annoying the shit out of an official for three-and-a-half quarters, they'll get a call their way (or in Kobe's case, multiple calls) when the game is on the line in the fourth quarter. I'm not sure how the NBA would institute this and it would take a while to adjust to it, but if you made barking at officials an automatic technical foul and eliminated the ref/player relationship altogether, we might finally see refs call the plays and not the players anymore. (But don't take my word for it, watch George Karl and former NBA referees tell you themselves in this ESPN "Outside the Lines" piece that aired when the Donaghy story broke last year. Kudos to Denver Stiffs reader Big Mickey D for hunting this down!)
Solution #3: Add more referees and rotate them more sporadically
I was in the minority of NBA fans who wanted to see the replacement refs. In agreement with Simmons, I've long believed that NBA refs are too old, too short and (now clearly) too biased to fairly officiate games. Putting Donaghy's allegations aside, do you really think Dick Bavetta can call an honest game anymore? He's been around way too long. But assuming the NBA isn't going to pull a "Logan's Run" on aging officials, let's at least add more young, tall, and preferably former players to the referee ranks and have more referee crews. This way, the Bavettas and the Salvatores ref specific teams less than they do now, disabling whatever bias they have from eating away at a chunk of a team's season. (Remember when Dan Issel coached the Nuggets and Javie refereed our games it was all but assumed to be a loss? Come to think of it, whenever Issel coached a game during his second stint with the Nuggets we should have assumed the loss.)
As bad as the Donaghy story may be for the integrity of the NBA, I believe in the long run it could be the wake up call the NBA desperately needed. But don't forget the power and the voice that we have as fans because remember, we're taxpayers. When you buy that NBA ticket, NBA league pass, Nuggets workout pants (like I bought today during NBA.com's 20% off men's apparel sale), bobble head dolls, jerseys and so forth, it gives you the right as a taxpayer to voice your opinion when those who collect our hard-earned money (from David Stern to Dick Bavetta) aren't being transparent and earnest with us. All we as fans ask for is a fair fight and the least the NBA can do is prove that it's always a fair fight....even if the Lakers have appeared in half the NBA Finals ever played (I'm just saying).
The NBA should listen to what Donaghy is saying, listen to us and change their ways. It will only make the product we already love much more believable and transparent. Why is that a bad thing?
(I'll be printing this email and mailing it in letter form to David Stern's office tomorrow.)
Photo courtesy of NBAE via Getty Images
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Comments
Tim Donaghy may have done the prison time
but sometimes it feels like his legacy lives on in the NBA. The game of basketball has a quick pace and a continuous flow that makes it difficult for the refs to be completely accurate on every single call, many of us understand that fact. When you hear that certain refs have preferences for certain players and teams it seems like Donaghy was a scape goat for the rest of the NBA. The problem becomes worse when the schedule appears to favor certain big market teams while appearing to screw over some of the less favorable teams.
I dont want to make any out right claims of corruption since the NBA is my favorite professional league but they need to find a way to amend bad calls. Every coach should have the ability to request a video review, but not in a way to impede the flow of the game. I also believe that refereeās should be held accountable for making bad calls whether by suspension or fine it should be made understood that the league will not tolerate favoritism from the game officials.
On the flip side it is frustrating to watch players ask the officials for a call repeatedly during a game. Ideally the players should have no need to ever speak to an official during a game instead they should let the refs focus on the game and get back to playing. Overall its an issue with no clear or easy solution, maybe one day the NBA can make the game fair, but for now all we can do is support our favorite team no matter how poorly the officials call the game.
This post is definitely right on and I agree with it completely. All thats left is for the NBA to take a look and act on it. Good post Andrew!
Great post Andrew
I completely agree with the ways, especially # 2. It’s player-ref relationships that create bias in refs… often it’s the favorable ones. I’m absolutely convinced at the end of every practice, Gregg Popovich tells his team to kiss referees’ ass every game and issues a warning to his players those who whine to refs will be banished to the bench for that game. Look at Spurs games, their players are always gentle towards the refs, none will bounce or flip the ball to the refs, they will hand the ball to them gently I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a $50 note underneath the ball every time they do it.
Kobe may whine once and then, but he’s the L’s darlings and refs know better to be his allies than his enemies.
I don’t really think our Nugget teams in the past were really whiners… yeah they did it, but not really spread out… but the ones that did it often did it in abusive way that often stuck to the refs and they remembered 2-3 players’ behavior as representative of the whole team’s behavior.
Now today’s Nuggets seem to be much more aware of this treating-refs-right impact, especially now Donaghy’s claims are made public. If I have to single out a player who is still too dumb to resist going after referees is, without a doubt, Nene. He has to get over whatever calls he thinks are not made… but strangely, after Donaghy’s claims came out recently, Nene just has kept his mouth shut around refs… which is a very good thing.
Back to #2, now if you completely abolish communication between refs and players, there would absolutely be no bias anymore. It’s perfect. There will be no favorable/ hate calls made by refs just because they like/ hate certain players. Refs are there expected to ref the game like professionals at their jobs… cut the casuals and put the professionalism upfront. I am absolutely for this idea.
I was also supportive of the replacement refs… unlike the current refs, you don’t even know their names… none of them acts like divas, none of them thinks they’re bigger than the game. They know they are there not to steal the spotlight from the players who play the game. I am also supportive of the idea #3.
Idea #1 is probably the most brilliant… will we see it? Hopefully. Great post and ideas Andrew :) Keep good work.
Good article
I do believe that some officials are biased towards other teams, and that there have been people on the inside who had the know and gambled illegally, getting 70-80% of the games. I also think some officials try their best to get the team they are biased against to lose, but not overwhelmingly. Having said that, I don’t think it is a thing where David Stern is sitting there in his chair saying “Lakers, Celtics this year in Finals, make it happen!”, otherwise, we would not have to watch the likes of boring, small Market teams like the Spurs to win FOUR golden balls with defense first mentalities, or the Pistons for that matter dominating the east for that 6 year stretch, but I do believe David Stern does nudge officials just a little so that the big market teams get an edge, but not to the point of total blatancy.
Just my opinion though, if I were to find out that the NBA is rigged, I won’t ever watch another game, buy any merchandise, buy a ticket or anything of the sort that would support the NBA.
I'd very much like to see...
…an OFFICIAL statement from Stern concerning what he plans to do about this from here on out. It’s all well to say that it’s not happening anymore because Donaghy is gone, but with him claiming that some of the refs at fault are still currently reffing the games…
Like CloudBurst said, if I were to find out that the NBA is rigged, I wouldn’t want anything to do with it either, but the NBA is going on as though this isn’t even an issue any more. It seems as though the NBA is using a sort-of ‘forgive and forget’ policy, (although more of a ‘Send Donaghy to Prison and forget’ kind of thing), but I’d like to see some action taken, and your suggestions, Andrew, are in the right direction.
Although I’m not particularly in favor of #2, #1 & #3 are great suggestions. I know it’d slow the game down, but if the replay system was used more fully, or, even better, the challenge system was instituted, sometimes the player who’s whining, may actually end up looking like less of a whiner rather than ending up with a technical. I don’t recall any recent, specific incidents where a player has whined and actually got the call reversed, do you? (i’m talking about the ones that are actually wrong calls that were disproved by the televised replay, but not reviewed on the floor, and thus, not overturned).
Good statistics to determine poor officiating are not as simple as you make them seem
As a Nuggets fan, you should clearly recognize that FT discrepancy is not a good way to assess the quality of the refeering. I’m not disagreeing with your examples of the 2000 and 2002 WCFs being series with biased officiating, but to try and support these claims by using FT attempts is a little silly. If one team is being more aggressive than the other taking the ball to the hoop they will almost always get more free throw attempts.
Also, trying to evaluate refs by comparing the number of calls made by different referees in different games is super naive when you think about the variables involved. For example, one referee might calls five times as many charges as another ref over the course of the season against the Nuggets. Does this make either of them biased for or against the Nuggets? We have absolutely no idea! Both refs could have made the correct call every single time and the discrepancy could be due to vast number of reasons that go into why and when a player commits a charging foul. The best way to judge the quality of the refs is to go on a case by case basis and determine whether the calls they are making or not making are correct.
Releasing raw data for the ref stats you are looking for in your post would actually do more harm than good because everyone would misinterpret the data and start making accusations and complaints based on poor statistical analysis.
True but...
If someone was able to figure out a player’s +/- line, and create a program that constantly updates those numbers, then someone has got to find a way to do this. (I’m looking at all you eggheads that are attached to your Excel spread sheets and laptops riding to the Tech Center every morning) Even if the numbers weren’t held against the refs, it would just be something to look at, and well…start a fire of a debate every June.
I’d do it but as mentioned in other posts involving numbers and calculations, I can’t do it. I have DPS math skills, and not the good DPS either. According to my calculations the sum of Chauncey’s jersey and JR’s jersey is Pi. Apple Pi.
by Joelsopinion on Dec 8, 2009 12:42 PM MST up reply actions
I agree with you because the author of this piece
is failing to mention that in the years 2000-2004 there was a giant of a man who was at the time in his PRIME and was the MOST DOMINANT & MOST DIFFICULT player to be officiated.
I think you all realize who i’m talking about – Shaq. In those years Shaq was fouled literally every move he made and you also have to remember that Kobe (the number 8 version) was in his athletic prime and taking it to the rim A LOT.
I’m not going to sit here and say that calls have not gone the way of my team (LA Lakers) but calls have gone against my team as well, just check the 2008 finals where I truly believe Boston won using a defense that was filled with illegal/moving screens and hard picks. But hey you don’t see me complaining because the better team more often than not (except Dallas vs Golden State) will most likely win a 7 game series.
Portland in 2000 were just as good as the Lakers and had more scoring options but they had team/trust/chemistry/personnel issues. The Kings in 2002 WERE REALLY GOOD but guess what, so were the Lakers.
Overall I do believe the refs have their own bias towards some players, but I don’t believe the NBA is rigged to the extent that some people are making it to be
You laker fans should just shut the goddamn hell up
Shaq was a big flab of fat molded together in a relative shape of a body. The L*kers fans are the most spoiled bitch@ss motherf^^^^^^s in sports. Seriously
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"If the NBA were on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love were on channel 4, I'd watch the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." - Bobby Knight
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
technology is part of the solution
the bulls game in chicago is a great example of how it works both ways. miller’s shot was no good and the correct call. the bigger question was before the shot when billups missed the free throw. how much time was left in the game after the ball hits the rim, the player rebounds and calls time out. there are an endless amount of rules that can be changed and enacted. the bigger issue is consistency. the best example is when the nba fined stephen jackson for his trade demand over the summer. kobe bryant had a constant melodrama going on over several months. this shows there is a star system to some degree. if the league cannot be even handed about issues that happen over several weeks how can the refs be held accountable for split second decisions?
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
"The free throw disparity was Lakers 37, Blazers 16: an abomination that the NBA should forever be embarrassed about"
That’s a pretty damn substantial damnation you admonish without much proof. There are a great deal of other things that can lead to free throw disparity other than referee bias. How about game 2 of the 2008 NBA finals? The Celtics shot 38 freethrows to the Lakers 10. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2008060802 for the boxscore.
That’s a much bigger difference than in the Portland vs. LA game and the final score was just about as close. Does this game fit your conspiracy theory cleanly? Of course it doesn’t, because the Lakers and Celtics are both very big market teams so there’s no reason for the referees to favor either team, especially when both have already reached the pinnacle of the NBA season. But what if it was the Nuggets shooting 10 free throws to the Celtics 38? Something, I don’t know exactly what, but SOMETHING tells me I’d be reading about it in this article.
The reason the Lakers won that game is because the Blazers absolutely choked in the fourth quarter. The referees can’t propel a team to a 17 point fourth quarter comeback in game 7 of the playoffs. The sheer number of biased and terrible calls that would require would cause outrage throughout the league. Go ahead and mosey on over to blazersedge and ask them why Portland lost that game. They’ll tell you its because the Lakers made them into jumpshooters and they went absolutely cold. Much like the referees can’t make you shoot 50% from the free throw line or botch inbound plays for you, they can’t hold you to 13 points in a quarter either.
Anyways, enjoy your conspiracy theories. I hope the Nuggets do well this season and go deep in the playoff! They are, in my opinion, the second best team in the West.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Your argument doesn't work...
There’s a huge difference between the Lakers getting an inordinate amount of free throw attempts during a home Game 7 against a small market team and the wide free throw disparity you point out between the Lakers and the Celtics, the NBA’s dream NBA Finals matchup. A Pacers/Blazers NBA Final in 2000 would have been catastrophic for the NBA business-wise. Whereas once they got their dream matchup in the Finals as they did in 2008, there was no incentive to “nudge” the outcome.
Moreover, I remember Game 2 of that Finals specifically. In that game, the Celtics were very sluggish out of the gate. Sensing his team’s sluggishness, head coach Doc Rivers purposefully got himself T’d up midway through the second quarter to fire up the crowd and, by proxy, his team. The Celtics played the rest of the game very aggressively offensively. And as is typical in the NBA, the more aggressive team often gets to the free throw line. I also remember thinking in that game that the Celtics got more favorable calls, but believe that was home cooking combined with their aggressiveness.
Back to Game 7 of 2000 between the Lakers and Blazers. The Lakers were down by – I believe – 17 points entering the fourth quarter. By overusing their whistle, the refs were able to take away Portland’s aggressive defense by getting them into the team foul penalty early, which has the double effect of sending the Lakers to the line for free points while the clock stops. Granted, the refs weren’t the ones shooting 3-of-18 as the Blazers did in the fourth quarter, but the refs were able to slow the game down to put the Lakers in a position to win. It was like the Lakers were playing six-on-five out there throughout the fourth quarter.
I maintain that Lakers/Blazers Game 7 of 2000 was a classic example of referee “nudging” an outcome to benefit the big market team. Had they not done so, we’d have seen a Blazers/Pacers NBA Finals in 2000 that only NBA degenerate fans like me would have watched.
Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com
by Andrew Feinstein on Dec 8, 2009 8:57 AM MST up reply actions
NBA officials are obviously biased
but I hate using the free throw disparity has evidence. If that is the case, then shouldn’t the Nuggets be the team that the NBA wants to win? The Nuggets are clearly #1 this season in free throw attempts. So are officials biased towards the Nuggets? Being a Nuggets fan and watching Nuggets games, I know the clear answer to that is no. The Nuggets are simply built towards and focused on getting to the free throw line. That is our style of play, and so we live on the free throw line compared to most teams. Last night we outshot the Sixers 26-9 on the free throw line. Extreme bias? No, the Sixers are a jump shooting team and since we couldn’t throw it in the ocean early, we resorted to driving inside and making contact.
So while maybe the officials did call the game biased towards the Lakers in 2000, using the free throw differential tells you nothing. Maybe the Lakers decided that they had to attack because their shots weren’t falling. I don’t know, I didn’t watch that game. I just know that biased refereeing can’t be proven simply by pointing out free throws.
and you say my argument doesn't work?
“:Thereās a huge difference between the Lakers getting an inordinate amount of free throw attempts during a home Game 7 against a small market team and the wide free throw disparity you point out between the Lakers and the Celtics, the NBAās dream NBA Finals matchup. A Pacers/Blazers NBA Final in 2000 would have been catastrophic for the NBA business-wise. Whereas once they got their dream matchup in the Finals as they did in 2008, there was no incentive to "nudge" the outcome.”
You can’t just pick and choose between causation and correlation when it suits your point.
Do you have specific numbers on the free throws by quarter, fouls by quarter, or even by minute for the Lakers-Blazers game? I couldn’t find any…
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
You are right about picking between causation and correlation
The referees aren’t rigging every game. They rig the ones they think they can get away with or the really big games $ wise. The refs do it by calling out of bounds on the wrong team, not calling fouls when a player gets fouled, calling fouls when a player isn’t fouled, technical fouls, and their favorite is the travel. They love to call traveling at random times when most players in the NBA travel every other time they touch the ball.
You should have seen the call they made last year against Chauncey where he was on a 2 on 1 fast break against the Lakers in the playoffs. They called a charge when the dude wasn’t anywhere near set and was also in the restricted area. Shit like this happens a lot and something has to be done.
Lakers, Spurs, and Cavs fans should be banned from discussing this topic. The rigging of games is in their favor so of course they will argue it till they are blue in the face.
Granted, the refs werenāt the ones shooting 3-of-18 as the Blazers did in the fourth quarter, but the refs were able to slow the game down to put the Lakers in a position to win. It was like the Lakers were playing six-on-five out there throughout the fourth quarter.
but had the blazers shot a normal percentage, they should have won that game anyway even with bad calls which road teams will typically get…you cant just blame it entirely on the refs, when the teams themselves who have the most control on the games arent even helping their own cause…
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
Right back at cha, pal Enjoy your denial.
i hope the lakers do well this season and go deep in the playoffs! (just kidding. what i really hope is christmas comes early and the lakers plane crashes on their upcoming road trip.) having said that (LARRY DAVID!), the lakers are the second best team in the west, in my opinion.
Fuck LA!!!
by calvin brodus on Dec 8, 2009 10:08 AM MST up reply actions
You're right
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong or biased about NBA officiating…
Clearly Donaghy acted alone, for the first and last time, and is just simply lying about EVERYTHING that he has said is going on behind closed doors.
Come on man. And you know what? That celtics lakers disparity SHOULD be talked about. That is just as fucked up.
by SternfluffsKobe on Dec 8, 2009 10:27 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I never said that there was no bias in NBA officiating
My comments were specific to his Blazers Lakers theory.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
It's not a "theory" when every goddamn person on earth, including those tribepeople in Siberia know that it was rigged
L@kers fans are definitely the most spoiled…on many bball sites I see “Vujacic for JR Smith” trades with the explanation being “they don’t like the thug look.” Hey Lakers fans, how about this: Renaldo Balkman for your next 50 first round draft picks. You don’t like it? Because that is the shit that other NBA fans are forced to put up with.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"If the NBA were on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love were on channel 4, I'd watch the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." - Bobby Knight
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
donaghy alone SMOKE YOU
Bevetta was in on the Whole thing too. I WILL GAURANTEE IT. He is the worst one of them all. the nba just used Donaghy as a skape goat so they wont get caught.
by JR2 on Dec 8, 2009 8:31 PM MST up reply actions
Check out the link below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWNAOYOn3vw&feature=related
It features our very own George Karl, came long before Donaghy’s book contents leaked and provides some great insight. The bottom line is that there are too many questionable relationships between refs and coaches, refs and players and refs and owners. Games aren’t “fixed” per se but they sure as fuck aren’t fair either. While I like the changes, Andrew’s solutions are treating symptoms. The “disease” that needs to be cured is the off-court familiarity and fraternization between certain referees and certain players and coaches.
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
Great find!
I remember seeing this on TV. A MUST watch if you believe in my #2 solution!
Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com
by Andrew Feinstein on Dec 8, 2009 9:43 AM MST up reply actions
AI's return game...
…I watched last night’s game with a jaundiced eye as Dick “the fixer” Bavetta was refereeing the game and as AI leading the Sixers to victory would have created a lot of favorable attention to the NBA and Philadelphia.
I have to say that Melo’s off night might have been a product of him not getting into his free throw rhythm because of non-calls on his drives (snowballing into Melo playing like an idiot), and Philadelphia seemed to play very physically.
If there is anything to that, Andrew’s point is spot-on. Denver’s trapping defense made steals so quickly out of nowhere, it would have been hard to pre-meditate a foul call against the Nugs, and of course the refs can’t keep a bad team from shooting bricks, and can’t keep a torrid JR Smith, Billups, and Ty Lawson from making their shots. No ref could have fixed the Nugs out of their run last night.
+1 on the bad calls for Melo
Then him acting like a selfish little kid
Did you see in the Post's recap
that Obama left the locker room without talking to supporters? We did win last night. While he should be chastened and determined to bounce back in the next game, he should also be happy and singing the praises of the team that kept Melo from losing the game for us last night.
Great post
The only criticisms I have have already been addressed in the comments section here.
I think the answer is more film reviews and fining refs who make inconsistent calls. With high definition and multiple camera angles, there is no reason teams who felt they got stiffed by an official in a game can’t ask the league to review the game film for inconsistent calls. From what I understand some of this is happening already.
There were several calls against the Nuggets in that San Antonio game that were either bullshit or a result of the officials falling for the Spurs’ acting. I think just like showing players game film, it would benefit the refs to see some of the questionable calls. Since I do not for a second believe there is a vast,league-wide conspiracy, pointing out these inconsistencies will be a great way for refs to understand and compensate for their subconscious biases.
There is so much work to be done in changing the culture. But, hopefully, some small steps can start us down the path.
One thing that the refs should point out is...
…that Chicago/Nuggets game, where the refs got the last call right when all the pressure of the home crowd in a big market could have let them give the game to the Bulls.
Also, I watched that youtube clip that featured George Karl from last summer. Bavetta should be forced to retire.
Thank you
You put it as well as anyone: games aren’t “fixed,” but they are “nudged” from time to time when there is an obviously desirable outcome for the league. Such nudging does not typically, in and of itself, determine the outcomes of games, and a team playing well enough can always overcome it, but it can be a factor in determining the general tilt of a close game/series.
People trying to prove or disprove a massive NBA conspiracy miss the point completely. There nothing down on paper, no directives from Stern. These people are smart enough to know that any kind of methodical, systemic fixing of games would be easily caught out, so they’re more subtle about it. The refs, like most employees in a business, know what their bosses want without having to be told, and that they’ll be gvien a certain amount of leeway should they influence a game or series in a particular way.
BTW, note that NBA defenders always throw out the “fixing” straw man when under fire, but never address the more obvious & plausible “nudging” theory…
Nudging is so fucked up
If referees are nudging a game in a direction it is unfair. Fixed may be the right thing to say. Sport should not involve referees pushing a game in any direction whatsoever. Nudging should be illegal and should be looked at much further.
Sporting competitions are based on the notion of fairness. If referees are nudging a game in one direction or the other it is no longer fair. Therefore no longer sport. This is a horrible problem that makes steriods in baseball look like having a runny nose as compared to terminal cancer for the NBA.
Don't disagree
Just saying that “fixing” by definition means the outcome is never in doubt, while “nudging,” however unfair and undesirable, does not in and of itself determine game/series outcomes.
It also means the chances of actually catching the NBA at it red-handed are slim to none. Outright fixing would be easy to spot; nudging is more subtle (and arguably more insidious), so even when it looks obvious, proving an airtight case of it is exceedingly difficult.
No difference to me
In boxing a fixed matched (think Ali phantom punch) and cheating are one in the same. Why should fans have to choose between the lesser of two evils? Has anyone kept up with Margarito, the boxer who cemented his finger tape? What’s the difference between that and a ref with a quick 10 count or someone paid to take a dive? Not one damn thing. It sullies the sport in the same way as steroids, point shaving, throwing a match etc. I’m upset either way, fixing or nudging. Nudging just sounds like cute cheating.
Nudging is worse
At least fixing games would take balls. I actually believe some games are fixed though…
Great points, I believe it starts from the top though
I am a big time hater of David Stern, maybe often irrationally so, but in my eyes he must go already. He cares more about money then a fair and balanced playing field(which I know is often the case anywhere), there always seems to be a team or player(usually big names) that get favored by the NBA. I think when you compare Melo to Kobe you see the discrepancy, Melo doesn’t have the respect from the refs yet, probably for they way he acted the first few years of his career, and doesn’t get the type of “star” calls guys like Kobe, Lebron, Chris Paul get. I wouldn’t mind that one bit, because I hate “star” calls, if non of the big name players get preferential treatment but they do, I agree it’s not fixing but nudging, but if that nudging results in a team losing a close game instead of winning a close one then that is sort of a fixed results(if that makes any sense).
Look, it's a bird...no, it's a plane....oh never mind it's just fucking balloon boy
Bennett Salvatore didn't throw two errant inbounds passes for Denver ...
… but he might have helped the Lakers get into a position where those bad passes changed the outcome of the games. At least some of Donaghy’s allegations are plausible to me, and if they are not refuted by the NBA, will “nudge” me away from the NBA to other sports where the establishment/refs can’t/won’t do as much to help the big boys win.
Time wounds all heels
The Solution to #2 is easy
Just follow what they do in rugby, only the captain can talk to the referees. Any one else mouths off they get a “T” (perhaps make it a special T where they dont get run after two or what the hell make it a normal one). I know it would be a bit difficult with all of the substitutions that take place but the coach could designate a player in the game at that time.
+1
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Dec 8, 2009 11:59 AM MST up reply actions
I like that idea
maybe even something like an instant benching for 5 minutes, that way no points or free throws are awarded to the opposing team. Just a mandatory substitution.
solution to #2
make a technical foul count against the personal fouls. when there is a technical called on the bench assign the foul to that teams leading scorer for the game at that time. if there are multiple players that are tied for the lead in scoring the foul gets assigned to the last player that scored. to keep the refs honest is easy. there is the concept of the black boxes with aircraft. one box records the planes data and the other is a voice recorder. put a microphone on each ref. when you record everything that is being said you can bet players and refs will shut up.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
carry over minutes
with cell phones some plans allow you to carry over the minutes you do not use the month before. if a player gets 6 personal fouls and gets a technical. the foul is carried over to the next game. instead of 6 personals they will have only 5 for the next game. fining players and coaches for technicals does not work. the money is chump change to these guys. phil jackson makes 12 million a year and screws the owners daughter. giving him a fine is a joke for a t.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
In high school the technical fouls do count in the personal foul count toward disqualification. The NBA doesn’t want their stars to foul out so readily so they don’t count there and they get 6 instead of 5. Also in HS; technicals against the bench count against the head coach, but not as much as one against the head coach.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
I guarentee you
That the refs work different. I know there are guys in this league that sure lets make a bet to see who will T up Rasheed Wallace or Ron Artest. Now there are lots of things that Donaghy could have bet on like point spreads. If he calls a very tight game both ways to get an influx of points so they get over the say Bulls by 6 with 212 points or more scored. Then he really isnt fixing the game just calling it tight so its in his favor. Sure the Bulls were going to blow out the Nets at home we all knew this but to get 212 points too well, call it tight.
Sure Donaghy is disgraced
But we should quit calling him that. It is language like this that makes the NBA feel like they have a shot at beating this wrap.
We should be calling a spade a spade. The FBI said the dude didn’t fix games but he cooperated with their investigation. The guy has come out and said that many (if not all) of the referees are biased in their refereeing. He has also said that the NBA sends down directives for referees to referee games a certain way. How fucked up are these two facts? We as fans of one of the teams that gets screwed by the NBA should be up in arms not arguing about the little points. More writers need to get involved in ivestigating this further.
I want to see a reporter who believes that the refereeing is fucked in the NBA interview Donaghy. No more pussy footing around why he would be doing this. Get to the god damned point about what games are fixed (or nudged) and make a video with his commentary. Have the evidence ready and take it to capitol hill.
Hell Yeah
Or even “NBA Referees: Doin’ the Dirty”
Meant to say
“NBA Referees: Doin’ the Dirty Work”
Mainly every team not named
LA Lakers, SA Spurs, Chicago Bulls, Boston Celtics
When has the NBA ever had a cinderalla team win the championship? I think the closest was the 74-75 Warriors and that may be a stretch too. I think the NBA would do well to have some cinderella stories, it might increase national attention, but they won’t allow it. The big markets are where the TV money is. It’s all about money. The NBA is a show, not a sport.
At the end of this season the NBA needs to quietly retire Bavetta and several others. They need to bring in more young, taller and ex-player (not necessarily NBA player) referees. They need to have a situation where the players seldom see the same official for more than 8 games in a season (more refs). They need to make it a rule that refs may not touch players except to intervene in a situation that could lead to violence. Players should not be allowed to touch referees under any circumstances except incidental contact as a result of play.They need to make it a “by rule” technical foul for any player other than the team captain to speak to the refs. They need to prohibit referees from speaking to players or coaches except in response to what was said to them. Referees and their families must be prohibited from owning NBA merchandise or gear that is autographed by a player or has been worn by a player. Referees must have unlisted phone numbers and may not give their phone numbers to employees of any team. In other words, there has to be more separation between refs and players. It would be interesting to have sports officiating provided by an independent company instead of them being employees of the league.
There’s a problem with the idea of referee stats in that no one is compiling them right now. They’d have to hire a lot more people to do that and they aren’t going to do that with the economy the way it is.
The NBA is a product. We’re not taxpayers as much as consumers. If we choose to spend our money on NBA products, that’s our choice. We expect an honest product. I’ve talked to lots of people over the last 30 years or so that say they don’t pay attention to the NBA because the players get away with traveling, or there’s superstar calls or whatever their reason is, it boils down to a sense that it’s not on the up and up. Instead of trying to get those people back the NBA chose to market star players and that has been a sucessful formula for them with the people who get into that sort of thing. Kobe would be doing time for rape if he wasn’t sold so well to the people that buy into the stardom and send death threats to his accuser. The NBA would sell just as well to the basketball fans if it were a basketball product instead of a star product, but they can’t transition back to that without losing a lot of money in the process. So we’re stuck with it for some time to come. It’s all about money, after all it is PROFESSIONAL basketball.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
Just like smoking in the High school bathroom
Timmy probably only got his lame ass tattoo after he was allowed into the club.
exactly
Frankly, any team that landed Duncan was going to be in great shape to contend for some championships.
If you’re a Western Conference team that’s not the Lakers, then your best hope of ever making it to the Finals is to have someone like Tim Duncan fall in your lap from some great lottery luck.
If it weren’t for Duncan, the Lakers would probably be up to 34 or 35 appearances in the Finals, instead of just 30.
by ParkHillNative on Dec 9, 2009 2:03 PM MST up reply actions
The first time San Antonio won they had Robinson as well as Duncan. Robinson was a godsend to the NBA in that he was a superbly gifted athlete who did (fulfilling his military comitment as other pro athletes had gotten out of theirs) and said all the right things to make him a model citizen/role model. Duncan was ready to follow in his footsteps as a four year college guy. It was very much in the NBA’s interest to have a team like that win. They certainly weren’t a cinderella team. Robinson, Duncan, Nate Timmons, Andrew Feinstein and I (all in our prime) could very nearly win an NBA championship.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
Indeed also
The leage needs to institute a NO WHINING RULE. Call it the Arnold rule.
+1
I think that the NBA alone compiles referee stats.
If you watch the YouTube link that I posted above, they seem to believe that the problem is in the “rating” of officials by coaches, GMs and owners. I wish I knew more about that process. Do you know anything about it? My research hasn’t produced any specifics…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Dec 9, 2009 10:14 AM MST up reply actions
The problem is what constitutes a referee stat? Missed calls? Wrong calls? Correct calls that wouldn’t ordinarily be called? Close calls? It’s just too nebulous to create a definite count. We once had someone post something here that showed that even player stats are fudged by the home team.
When I was a high school referee an assigner told me that he polled and questioned all the coaches about the officiating at the end of the season and the coaches were too disinterested at that point to reply with anything but “they were all fine”, if they replied at all.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
NBA - NFL - MLB
NFL officials have the opportunity to make about once a minute. An MLB ump makes a call a throw. The rest make calls as needed. In the NBA the three officials make scads of calls. This rises two points. First, they should have a paper trail that can bear scrutiny like no other. Second, they make so many calls that it is almost understandable that they are going to make mistakes.
On the first hand we should be able to tell if there is a discrepancy because if counted it would jump off the page. Or, on the second they have to make so many calls we should understand if they screw up.
Either way, on most of our jobs we get graded. NBA refs seem to be out there on their own with no one to answer to.
2002-2003 Playoffs: T-Wolves @ Lakers Game 3. Worse than Lakers/Blazers.
Very obscure game, but I remember watching it in disbelief. I’m not a big “blame the refs” guy (I actually think it’s pretty pathetic) but this was blatant. I never believed in fixed games until I watched this one.
Many calls went against the T-Wolves to help the Lakers back in the game. I remember they cut to the TNT studio between the 4th quarter and overtime and Kenny and Charles were speechless. Garnett had 5 fouls going into OT, and the refs fouled him out 12 seconds into overtime on an in-bounds play!
Szerbiak was able to foul a guy (Jannero Pargo) without coming within 5 feet of him. Kobe got awarded a VERY questionable 4 point play.
Somehow Minnesota won.
ESPN recap, noting many “questionable” calls:
http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=230424013
Follow-up story about the game:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2003/story?id=1544876
Video of “questionable” 4-point play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XS1r0svFuQ
(That play was actually the closest to being a good call. The rest weren’t even debatable.)
by IKnowNateInRealLife! on Dec 8, 2009 3:01 PM MST reply actions
Pretty Pathetic?
I hope you are saying in sports outside of NBA basketball…
I've known the NBA has been fixed for years!
I am not only talking about certain pivitol games, but in all aspects.
I grew up a Rocket fan, and watched Hakeem Olajuwon go up with at least three players hanging on his arms with no call. But let him just swipe at the ball and they would call a reach-in foul.
How could 160 lb guards bump into Karl Malone, and he go flying into the second row? I would guess I could take a running start and run into him and he wouldn’t do anymore than sway a little bit. He was almost a 300 lb man who flopped every time someone got close to him, but the NBA made a Hall-of-Famer out of him by giving him the call every time.
Why did you never see Jordan, Malone, Kobe, etc. foul out? We’d see them push off to make room for their shot, but that call is never made. In fact, the other team gets called for contact while the superstar is shooting.
I go back to Olajuwon in the early 90’s. For several seasons he was the most dominant defensive player in the league. He was consistently in the Top-10 in rebounds, blocks, and steals (he’d be the only Center among 9 Guards in this category). Yet the NBA would give Defensive Player of the Year to Dennis Rodman. You could find NOBODY that would prefer to go against Hakeem instead of Rodman. Finally, he has an MVP season where he was the most dominant player on the planet, and the league gives him Defensive Player of the Year, giving David Robinson the MVP. (He did get his retribution as he EMBARRASSED Robinson in their playoff matchup, forcing the NBA to succumb and give him the MVP the next season.)
The NBA is biased towards and against players, and though it is certainly an UNWRITTEN rule, there are powers working for and against these players.
by Cartmans Evil Twin on Dec 8, 2009 4:16 PM MST reply actions
What you saw with Hakeem applied to a lot of big guys going back to George Mikan. The NBA doesn’t want a big guy to totally dominate the game the way Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq et al.could do if every foul comitted against them were called. Kareem and Walton stand out as exceptions because Kareem’s hook shot wasn’t a “big man’s play” nor was Walton’s mid-range jump shot. The NBA and its fans have a sort of love/hate relationship going on with the big guys. Many fans think that if they were 7-feet tall they’d be great basketball players too (by default). It just doesn’t work that way. As respected as Hakeem was, he was also underrated. Amazingly enough; these days Wilt is underrated too. As Wilt asked about Jordan: “How many rules did they change because of him (to limit his effectiveness)?”. In Wilt’s case the answer is two or three, I forget which.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
This problem has been resolved in the NHL
by allowing only the Captain and Alternate Captain(s) to speak with the referees as has been suggested by Nuggetboy. It has been working for years and would speed the game up and make it more enjoyable for fans. I really do get tired of millionaires whining.
A more fundamental issue
Whether or not there is actually any deliberate attempt to affect outcomes, there are still 2 problems in the NBA that the Donaghy accusations highlight:
1. Referees can’t help their unconscious biases (for example, there was that study about unconscious racism by NBA refs).
2. There is a perception by many NBA fans that NBA refs are consciously affecting the outcome of the games.
I think both of these problems are rooted in the same underlying problem: the NBA rules themselves.
There are too many opportunities for judgment calls by NBA refs. This is a result of both plays that are both so vaguely defined that they are hard to call or clearly label as a foul or not (probably best exemplified by the charge/blocking calls, if the referee’s decision could be upheld on a play as arguably correct no matter which way the call is decided, there is something wrong with the rule IMHO), and the proliferation of fouls that could be called so often that when they are actually called becomes highly selective (such as the current hand check rules, IMHO).
These judgment calls create an opportunity for unconscious biases to come into play, and, because so many calls and noncalls are arguable, give the average NBA fan at least an argument that there team is being screwed by the refs on an every game basis.
While I don’t know off-hand how to fix the problems with the rules (and, ultimately, I acknowledge that jugment calls can’t be entirely eliminated), I think a focus on that issue is the only way to really address the core of the referring problems and would ultimately result in a more enjoyable game.
One of the issues you seem to not be aware of is how officials tend to judge on the advantage/disadvantage concept. We had this discussion on the old DenverStiffs about kicking the ball. The rule (in HS and college anyway) says that it is only to be considered a violation if it is an intentional kick. This requires a ref to be a mind reader. In actual practice what happens is that if a ball hitting a players foot creates an advantage for that player’s team, then you call the kick ball. Something similar happens on rebounding fouls. When the team that was fouled gets the rebound anyway, they tend to let the foul go, for example there’s an over the back foul comitted on a guy whose teammate gets the rebound. That is let go all the time. the exceptionis when it is a situation that could cause escalation such as shoving with both hands as Melo did last night. Referee bias comes in when things are called when there is no advantage gained, but the referee makes the call because the guy fouled was a star, or the guy comitting the foul is being singled out as Donaghy claimed. Those sort of calls create the situation where one player is fouled several times on a drive at one end without a whistle and the guy at the other end gets touched and there’s a call.
Keep in mind the advantage/disadvantage concept while watching a game and the officiating starts to make more sense and when it doesn’t, that’s where you can see bias.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
+1
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Dec 9, 2009 10:09 AM MST up reply actions
I'm aware
I understand that is how it works now. I just think that it is bad (for the game) for reffing to work that way. And I don’t think it has to be that way. I wrote a more detailed response to your similar comment on the Fanpost I made to further discuss this issue. Let me know if you have any further thoughts.
Female ref
Can’t remember her name but I would like to see the nuggets record with her officiating. I think she honestly hates Kenyon Martin and it always seems like the nuggets have a tough game with her,
Joey Crawford also comes to mind, he definitely tries to get back at players, but with all teams not just Denver,
I know of another ref who is tough on the nuggets but cant remember his name but if I saw his face I would know him right away. Damn this is gonna bother me.
When you eat a candy bar or have a wonderful dessert, have a diet drink. The calories are cancelled out by the diet drink.
Maybe you’re thinking of Steve Javie who absolutely hated Issel and Van Exel. I doubt he has gotten over it.
Violet Palmer came into the NBA with another woman whom I can’t remember with a lot of hype about NBA being the equal opportunity league. The other woman didn’t last long. I haven’t seen Palmer in some time, is she really still in the league? The big problem I had with bringing those two in was that everybody knew that there were better officials trying to get in and their place was given to women for the publicity. The Nuggets suffered from the NBAs equality policies by being the first NBA team with black ownership. Unfortunately they were the first NBA team to be owned by paupers too.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
HAHA Loser Denver scrubs
this guy just can’t help himself taking shots at the Lakers!!
QQ Denver Stiffs, quit funneling your anger at Kobe, the Lakers, and Lakers fans simply because of your inability to throw inbound passes.
The Nuggets are one of the lousiest franchises in the NBA’s history, you go to the WC Finals for the first time in 20 years and suddenly it’s the ref’s fault you can’t beat the best team in basketball!! xD
Say what you want, i’m a stupid ignorant laker fan blah blah blah, but I know one’s things for sure, you wish you had Kobe too!! And 15 championships! HA xD
Small market teams like you are a joke, quit whining about your sorry asses. Learn to pass from the sideline! LOLOL
Small market teams are a "joke"?
So, by that logic, the NBA should consist of the Lakers, Celtics, Knicks, and….. umm…… I guess that’s about it. Sounds like a fun league!
Seriously, grow up. Small market teams are no better or worse than big market teams. The difference, of course, is the fact that the NBA benefits much more from big market teams winning, so they pull strings in that favor.
You’re the type of person who makes all Laker fans look bad. I can’t stand the Lakers, but my boyfriend and a few of my best friends are Laker fans and I respect them because they aren’t idiots like you. They actually follow the game and are able to criticize their precious franchise and don’t act as if they’re infallible. You need to grow up or just shut the hell up. Either one is good with me.
OK, you’re a stupid ignorant Laker fan. Actually I’m glad there isn’t a rapist on the Nuggets.
People who receive the benefit of bias have a hard time seeing it.
Without small market teams you’d be playing the same 7 teams every night and they’d be able to whip your butts for all the travel East that you’d have to do. As a stupid ignorant Laker fan; you haven’t thought this through very well. So we easily dismiss you as a stupid ignorant Laker fan.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
I was wondering who was going to be the first one to bring this up
Actually Iām glad there isnāt a rapist on the Nuggets.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 9:49 AM MST up reply actions
Well, now you know who was going to be the first to bring it up...
It’s funny that THAT is your argument. You suck at this.
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
well I was actually hoping for more originality.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 11:23 AM MST up reply actions
You were the one claiming that we wish we had Kobe. Fact is I don’t want Kobe on my team. I don’t think he should be in the NBA. There is no way justice was served in that case. People like you were sending death threats to the accuser.
I didn’t want Rueben Patterson on the Nuggets when he was here.
So what was your point? You still haven’t addressed where you would be without us small market teams.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
Why so much focus on the Lakers?
Personally, I welcome the jabs taken towards the Lakers. Just as much as I love the “Beat LA” signs and T-Shirts by all other organizations. In reality that is just promoting the Lakers brand. Any exposure is good exposure.
One thing that is ironic is that this post is whining about whining. I think that the Donahy topic is a good scape goat to use when trying to say that a team you dislike is so much more successful.
Your focus on the Lakers and their success says more about your unhappiness and insecurity you have toward your own team. It is not our fault that the Lakers have the highest salary because they are willing to pay through the roof to get quality players and to win. Do you think that the refs had something to do with that to?
Your post reminds me of that comment made by Jack Nicholson in a Few Good Men, “You Can’t Handle the Truth!” Just accept that your team is decent but have a long way to go but please don’t give us this “whoa is me” mentality and accept that your team and organization is what it is. By the way, you mentioned you bought some NBA work out pants do you know what that is on the NBA logo on those pants?
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 8, 2009 9:36 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
One question I had for the Nuggs fans here
was that if the top-tier teams are only there because the NBA deems them worthy enough then what will the attitude be if and when the Nuggets make it to the finals and win one of those trophies? I would imagine that that would be pretty unsatisfying knowing that it was not the years of hard work, tough play, and great front office, but rather the NBA giving the nod of approval.
I am obviously a Lakers fan, and I guess wear rose-colored glasses, but I just can’t take this topic seriously until there is quite a lot more evidence beyond a couple Lakers examples or heresay. I hope no one minds that I came to comment here, but your post was asking for it as it is clearly a shot across the Laker bow.
Also, I liked to see how a bunch of commenters on your game-thread for tonights loss vs. Charlotte used not having Kenyon Martin and being the the back of a back-to-back as a valid reason for a loss, when it was clearly not a viable answer for your win vs. the Lakers earlier in the season.
That is exactly it
There is no evidence that can clearly say that it is the case that refs favor anyone player/team. This argument is just full of emotion but nothing really concrete other than just quoting Donahy.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 8, 2009 10:08 PM MST up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxw3yxJt2O0
There’s plenty of evidence for those that are able to see it.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
an interview with a former official who has been investigated by the fbi is hearsay?
and who ever said gasol being out didn’t help denver?
by Rainbow skyline on Dec 8, 2009 11:17 PM MST up reply actions
Actually the fact that the Nuggets win against the Lakers was tainted by them coming off the late night game the previous night was a big topic of discussion here.
I know I’m dealing with another stupid Laker fan when he writes “heresay” instead of “hearsay”.
The Nuggets haven’t won a championship in all their years in the NBA, what make you think that is going to change? The only former ABA team to win a championship has been the Spurs and they wouldn’t have if it weren’t for Robinson and Duncan, a stroke of luck that the NBA couldn’t account for.
There’s far more evidence than you are willing to look at.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
Regarding your salary comment...
This is exactly why big market teams will always have an unfair advantage over the rest of the league. It is an absolute JOKE to have a “salary cap” that can be exceeded. It just means that the teams with the biggest markets can afford to pay more so they can get better players and win. They either need to man up and make an actual cap that can’t be exceeded, or make the “luxury tax” for exceeding the cap much higher. Maybe if a team had to pay $10 for every $1 they go over the cap the advantage would disappear.
The point of having a cap is so that no team is at an inherent advantage over another. By allowing teams to exceed the cap, you nullify it’s purpose. So no, the refs have nothing to do with that, but the NBA as a whole does.
Oh, and if Jerry West hadn’t gift-wrapped Pau Gasol to LA for absolutely nothing in return, there’s no way they would’ve won that last championship. So you should be thankful that a Laker legend works for another team and is able to hand over their only good player for nothing in return. It’s like the Yankees winning the World Series…I just have to say to them and their fans “Umm… congrats for buying a championship. That makes you totally special and unique… well done?”
Oh, and if Jerry West hadnāt gift-wrapped Pau Gasol to LA for absolutely nothing in return, thereās no way they wouldāve won that last championship.
Jerry Buss was behind the trade not Jerry West. and we traded away Kwame Brown, Javaris Critentton, Aaron McKie, and a draft pick (Marc Gasol) for him. While it is a definite lopsided trade, it is nothing new in the NBA. In 2007, the wolves and sonics traded away KG and ray allen and in 1994, houston got clyde drexler from the Blazers. Plus what is wrong about trying to improve your team? We needed a big man with bynum down for a few weeks and kwame brown was playing terribly. Memphis wanted to rebuild from scratch with a new core of players.
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
Jerry West was the GM of the Mephis Grizzlies at the time of the Gasol trade
There’s this thing in Denver (and I bet you could access it in a big, fancy town like Los Angeles) called the internet. It’s great for researching stuff to prevent yourself from sounding like an ignorant dickhead when making arguments. You should try it!
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
BigMickey D
You are wrong. West’s last day as the GM was July 2007 Gasol was traded in Feb of 2008. Tell me again and atleast show some link or proof of your conspiracy theory.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 11:18 AM MST up reply actions
I was wrong
Jerry West never was the GM of the Grizzlies. He was Director of Basketball Operations and, yes, gave up that post in July 2007 but hired his long time friend Chris Wallace to replace him and then stayed on as a consultant through the end of the 2007-2008 season. Suggesting that West had absolutely nothing to do with that trade is ignorant at best.
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Dec 9, 2009 12:23 PM MST up reply actions
suggesting he did is more ignorant
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 2:52 PM MST up reply actions
ummmm...yeah
next time do your research before accusing others of not doing their research.
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
I didn't need to research that...
I was well-aware of Jerry West’s involvement in that trade WHEN IT HAPPENED I just didn’t realize that he was never GM of the Grizzlies. You see, most teams have a GM and a DBO (even if they are the same person.) Memphis was different at the time. In fact, West was the one that pushed Memphis to give Wallace that title.
Anywho… Those of us outside of LA that thought that trade should have been vetoed by the league (the one and only time Greg Poppovich and I will ever be on the same side of things) were fairly pissed off that Jerry West had his fingerprints anywhere near a lopsided trade that favored his true love – the Lakers. Do I think that Jerry West is anything less than honorable? Of course not. He is a fine man and a perfect ambassador to the game I love so much. I’m sure that from where he was sitting that trade was a win-win. However, in retrospect, I bet even West himself wishes he had distanced himself from that trade…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
This is all that I know...show me where these facts are not true:
From Memphis Owner:
"Jerry didnāt know about the trade until after it was done."
"Our people told me that we werenāt able to get equal trade value for Gasol and that we needed to do a deal that would give us cap space and draft picks. It was no secret in the league that we were considering offers for him, but the Lakers were the one team that stepped up."
How can you argue with that? Are we supposed to believe the actual owner or a bunch of jealous Denver fans?
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 7:24 PM MST up reply actions
I believe that he is lying
I know that isn’t the best answer in the world but it is what I believe. I don’t know where you found those quotes but I would imagine that the context suggests that there were folks that thought that trade and its proximity to Jerry West was inappropriate and, possibly, unethical. Count me among those people. West and Wallace were close friends. Wallace and West had a lengthy transition in Memphis. I think that it is simple math to believe that Wallace and West were very close and very friendly during those negotiations. But they didn’t break the law and they really didn’t even break the rules. They just didn’t play fair. Plus, why would the owner admit to having been involved in unethical business practices? He wasn’t under oath and he had nothing to lose by saving a little face with a lie. AND helping a legend save a little face. It’s not really much of a stretch to believe …
I assume you hate the Celtics, right? Did you wonder at all about the KJ and Ray Allen aquisition? Tell the truth. Yeah, so did I and so did the die-hard fans of 29 other teams. For me, the Gasol trade was particularly stinky because of the Jerry West piece. Take him out of it and I still think that it was lopsided enough that David Stern should have stepped in and stopped it. I’m sure that if I was a Lakers fan I would be adament about it being some sort of lucky coincidence too. I’m not. I think it was a travesty. Don’t you raise an eyebrow at all that a prominant, respected world champion coach like Greg Poppavich went fucking berzerk when that trade happened?
Jealous? Holy shit yes I am jealous! If we had Pau Gasol we would absolutely dominate and you guys would be looking uphill at us.
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
You had thinking you had a good argument until you said the following:
if Jerry West hadnāt gift-wrapped Pau Gasol to LA
I need to see a link or something that proofs that. This site should change it’s name and add the word “conspiracy theory” because that is all that is talked about.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 8:02 AM MST up reply actions
If you weren’t a stupiod ignorant Lakers fan it would be self evident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq44jwL4BT0&NR=1
“…a steal for LA” Bill Walton
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
OK, I know I’m dealing with someone who isn’t too bright because you wrote “whoa is me”. Go to a dictionary (and since you probably don’t own one you can go to dictionary.com) and look up “whoa” which is a command to stop. Then go look up “woe”.
Jerry West was the model for the NBA logo. He was a guy that had more class than you or anybody associated with the Lakers has had for years.
You propbably haven’t heard of this thing called a salary cap. It’s a device that was meant to even the playing field in aquiring players. LA is and has been far over the salary cap. So a device meant to level the playing field is being circumvented by LA. Let’s see how good a team you guys can field when you’re under the cap.
I’m glad we don’t have a rapist on our team the way you do.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
Jerry West
Absolutely a class act but he NEVER should have engineered that trade. It looked fishy from the second it happened.
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Dec 9, 2009 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
Salary Cap
I’m not a Laker fan so I’m not trying to make excuses for them, but there are other teams that are above the salary cap. The Lakers have the highest, but there are several other teams (including Boston and San Antonio) that have also exceeded it. It’s sort of a moot point though because as long as the salary cap can be exceeded, there’s no point in having one as teams with huge markets, and therefore more money, will be able to go way above it and have a huge advantage.
It’s like baseball and the Yankees. They don’t even have a pretend salary cap, so the Yankees can literally buy themselves championships. Personally, I’d rather my team EARN one rather than just pay for one.
Personally, Iād rather my team EARN one rather than just pay for one.
and how do you exactly earn one without making trades to improve to your team? does a fairy come sprinkle magical dust on your team to make them good or something? should we just call the charlotte bobcats a bunch of greedy bastards if they made trades to make their team better?
oh and being a large market team doesnt translate to a ton of championships
just ask the new york knicks
they went about 74.5 million over the salary cap in 2005-06 (but look where they went)
you can have all the money in the world
but that means absolutely nothing if you do not manage a team correctly.
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
funny
does a fairy come sprinkle magical dust on your team to make them good or something?
That is a good point:
oh and being a large market team doesnt translate to a ton of championships
just ask the new york knicks
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 10, 2009 9:21 AM MST up reply actions
nevertheless
The Lakers unquestionably have a huge unfair advantage with their enormous revenue. The fact that the Knicks do not capitalize on a similar advantage does not disprove the fact that smaller market teams have to make do with less, and that’s a lot harder.
by ParkHillNative on Dec 10, 2009 11:02 AM MST up reply actions
Calling people 'not too bright' and 'stupid' because of spelling errors is silly.
Especially when you have several misspellings of your own.
I dont think that the refs have a specific team they want to win
But I know for a fact there is a bias on players from the refs. Without a doubt in my mind.
Classy
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 8:02 AM MST up reply actions
love that an army of laker trolls are all over other teams' blogs trying to defend themselves after what everyone else has known for years is now in plain sight
once again, LA=douchebag capital of the world
by Rainbow skyline on Dec 8, 2009 11:25 PM MST reply actions
Defend ourselves?
from what? The organization or the team has nothing to defend itself from. Pointing out that a statement is wrong is different than defending ourselves. We don’t need to do that. Yet another classy Denver fan:
LA=douchebag
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 8:04 AM MST up reply actions
lucky you are in LA buddy
if i ever get my hands on you i will pick my nose and wipe it on you. right after i get done kissin’ my sister!
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
another nominee for classy award
right after i get done kissinā my sister!
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 9:45 AM MST up reply actions
you folks from LA THINK YOU ARE SO HOTSY TOTSY
with yer indoor plumbing, barbell bloated govenor, movie stars, cement ponds and that devil worshipin’ rock and roll.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
I've commented on here a couple of times...
But I just have to say that while I agree with what the writer said about the 2002 WCF Game 7, it needs to be mentioned that had the refs not fixed (yes, I said fixed, not nudged) Game 6, the Kings would’ve won the championship. Any team can have an off night, and I’d guess that in a lot of close series that ended in 6 would’ve gone the other way had there been a Game 7. Some of the calls were so absurd in Game 6 that there’s no way it was just the refs “nudging” the game. I don’t actually believe that they wanted to fix the series for the Lakers to win. Rather, the NBA wanted the series to go to 7 games to squeeze out every last penny possible.
But really, in Game 6, when Kobe elbows Bibby in the face, knocking him to the ground and causing his nose to bleed, and they call a foul on Bibby, you know the game is full-on fixed, no question.
I don’t actually remember the 2000 WCF game mentioned, but it doesn’t surprise me at all that the Lakers would have a huge free throw discrepency. You can easily take a team out of a game by getting them into foul trouble early. They play less aggressively and therefore are taken out of their rhythm.
Oh, and some of the Laker fans/trolls on here are just pathetic. Why can’t you accept that fact that the NBA benefits from your team winning because of the fan base (tons are bandwagon fans, but whatever)? Thus, they want your team to succeed. Same with Boston. Beyond the actual teams, there is the superstar aspect. Star players ALWAYS get more calls in their favor than lesser players. Obviously this means Kobe gets way more calls in his favor, but so did Jordan and so does LeBron right now. It isn’t specific to one team, but since you have a player like Kobe your team will be getting more calls in it’s favor. It’s just a fact. Accept it.
Let's look at the numbers
If one wishes to complain about star calls over the past two seasons when comparing superstar wing players, Dwyane Wade gets the highest percentage of them, then Lebron, Melo, and Kobe in that order. The league average for the 2008-09 season was 0.309. In other words, Kobe was just barely above league average in the ratio of free throw attempts to field goal attempts per game for the 08-09 season.
08-09 Lebron FTA/FGA per game = 0.472
2008-09 Wade FTA/FGA per game = 0.445
2008-09 Melo FTA/FGA per game = 0.388
2008-09 Kobe FTA/FGA per game = 0.330
2009-10 Wade FTA/FGA per game = 0.546
09-10 Lebron FTA/FGA per game = 0.500
2009-10 Melo FTA/FGA per game = 0.455
2009-10 Kobe FTA/FGA per game = 0.342
Last season, the Nuggets led the NBA in FTA/FGA per game (0.389). The Lakers were tied for 14th with a ratio of 0.308, which was right at the league average. On defense, the Nuggets held their opponents last season to a ratio of 0.343. If you count the lowest ratio as #1, then the Nuggets finished 25th. The Nuggets therefore had a +0.046 advantage over their opponents last season in Team FTA/FGA vs Opponent FTA/FGA. That was the 3rd highest margin in the league. Laker opponents had a ratio of 0.299 FTA/FGA last season, giving the Lakers a +0.009 advantage. That was a margin tied for 13th in the league. So, if you want to go by which teams benefit the most on average from referee foul calls, the Nuggets were 3rd and the Lakers 13th in the NBA in the 2008-09 season.
This season, on offense the Nuggets again lead the NBA with a ratio of 0.408. The Lakers are 25th with a ratio of 0.265. Denver is #21 in the league in Opponent FTA/FGA with a ratio of 0.321. LA is #5 with a ratio of 0.270. So the Nuggets have a +0.087 advantage this season, while the Lakers are in the negative column with a -0.005 disadvantage. With this +0.087 figure, the Nuggets are easily #1 in the league this season in the Team FTA/FGA vs Opponent FTA/FGA. The Lakers are in the middle of the pack with their -0.005 number. Overall, the Nuggets have been by far the greater beneficiary of foul calls the past two regular seasons than the Lakers. I didn’t run the numbers for the last two postseasons.
Here are the team links:
http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fta-per-fga
http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/opponent-fta-per-fga
I used http://www.hoopdata.com/ for the individual player links.
by The Dude Abides on Dec 9, 2009 7:06 AM MST up reply actions
We’ve had extensive discussion here about how FTA is irrelevant to superstar calls. Try looking at how many times Melo gets hammered going to the basket with no call. He gets it every time going to the basket and the officials won’t call it every time. Try counting that against every time Kobe gets fouled with no call. Also try looking back to the times Shaq got no call.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
Melo isn't a traditional wing player like the other three either
He spends a lot more time in the paint and takes less jumpers than the other three.
Roxanna
To answer your question:
Why canāt you accept that fact that the NBA benefits from your team winning because of the fan base
For the same reason(s) that Denver fans seem to blame everyone and everything else except their organziation, coaches and players for their lack of titles. This whole site is about what the league isn’t doing for you or to you. I have a question. As Nuggets fans can you tell me how much responsibility or blame goes on Denver and the organization? When are you going to hold your own team accountable for not winning as much as you would like?
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 8:18 AM MST up reply actions
"This whole site?"...
First off, I take objection to anyone – much less a Laker fan – proclaiming this site to be about what the league isn’t doing for us. Do you actually read our site? Moreover, did you or any of the other Lakers fans that are commenting (whom we welcome, by the way, we love a healthy debate here at Denver Stiffs) actually read my article? Not only did I say the NBA isn’t fixed, rigged, premeditated or anything of the sort, but I went out of my way to explain that it wasn’t officiating that cost the Nuggets the 2009 WCF (the 1985 WCF with the phantom call on Danny Schayes against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the pivotal Game 4 might be different story however).
I’m simply suggesting that in a close situation with playoff series victories on the line, as has been done repeatedly throughout history, the bigger star/bigger market team will get the benefit of the whistle. This by no means excuses the mistakes of the smaller market team but rather, means that the smaller market team must play better to overcome those circumstances.
When the Nuggets play the Lakers in Game 7 of the 2010 WCF – and they will – they’ll need to have a perfect game plan and execute it properly to overcome an inevitably favorable whistle at Staples Center.
Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com
by Andrew Feinstein on Dec 9, 2009 8:53 AM MST up reply actions
So far what I have read
suggest all that. You are also welcomed at SSR but don’t act like you are doing us any favors by "welcoming’ anyone. I follow your guidelines so i’m safe. You are not going to hear comments from me similar to what I read like “fakers” or Kobe’s court case. We all belong to SB Nation. It’s not SBnationNuggetsfansonly.com. Besides, I am not generalizing any more than Nuggets fans do towards Lakers fans. Nuggets fans lump us all in the same group all the time. Have you read my posts. My whole comments have been about the obsession with Nuggets fans with the Lakers team and fan base. The post takes shots at the Lakers and by posting a pic of Kobe talking to Donahy at the top is also a jab. That is what I was responding to.
One hand you say something like “simply suggesting” and then you state the following:
theyāll need to have a perfect game plan and execute it properly to overcome an inevitably favorable whistle at Staples Center.
That is not suggesting anything. You are directly implying that you know for a fact that that is what is going to happen. And it is those type of comments that I am talking about. You don’t know that for sure.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 9:23 AM MST up reply actions
Spotting a pattern is not difficult if you look for it. The Lakers have gotten too many favorable whistles.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
Pattern?
where is your chart?
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 11:20 AM MST up reply actions
Sorry, I forgot that I was dealing with a stupid ignorant Laker fan. Patterns exist in places other than charts. I guess you just haven’t been wacthing the games.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
You must just be Thursty for a title
is that the origin of your name?
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 2:53 PM MST up reply actions
so then show me any proof
of your theory. Whether it’s a chart or anything that doesn’t simply involve Laker hatred and just knowledge. The issue is that your point of view is 99% anger and 1% knowledge. Put your dislike for the Lakers aside and tell me with something concrete to back up your supposed idea on how teams are favored.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 7:10 PM MST up reply actions
Coming from another Lakers fan
I have to agree that there is no overall giant conspiracy in favor of any specific team. I don’t believe in any vast conspiracies. Anybody ever heard the quote, “Three men can keep a secret if the other two are dead.”?
Beyond that, the free throw disparity issues of Game 6 of the 2002 WCF and Game 7 of the 2000 WCF can’t be explained just by looking at the box score. Watch the games again and you will see timid Blazers and Kings teams that go nowhere near the hoop and a Lakers team that continually attacked. The first 5 fouls that Sacto committed in the 4th quarter were shooting fouls. That’s just shooting yourself in the foot right there. And their frontcourt was Peja Stojakovic, Chris Webber, and Vlade Divac, guys who spend almost no time in the paint. I was so glad that Webber spent so much time jacking up 15 – 17 foot elbow jumpers instead of playing in the post where he killed the Lakers. Same with ’Sheed and Sabonis on the Blazers. All outside shots.
Anyway, all fans easily spot missed calls that go against their favorite team but it takes special fans to admit when their team gets a break. I’ll be the first one during a Lakers game to say that got away with a travel or a charge that should have been called a block. Going back to the 2002 WCF Game 5, I swore the NBA was rigged when Bobby Jackson nearly pulled Kobe’s jersey over his head and no foul was called and Kobe missed the winning shot. But after I heard Kobe and Shaq’s late night conversation saying, “Let’s go make history.” and they did it, I realized that the truly best teams win no matter what. And honestly, it is a lot more fun to watch all sports that way. The better team wins no matter what, no excuses.
by Lakers Lover on Dec 9, 2009 12:20 PM MST up reply actions
2002 WCF Game 6
The refs can easily take a team out of a game by calling fouls they wouldn’t normally call. That is what makes a team timid. You really think that the Kings and Blazers came out in the fourth quarter saying “OK guys, we’re doing really well right now, so instead of sticking with it, let’s completely alter our style of play and not be aggressive”? I seriously doubt it.
If we’re talking about fouls, it should be said that a foul (or traveling/palming/whatever else violation) could be called on virtually any play in the NBA. But the refs are smart enough to let little tiny things go most of the time in order to keep a game flowing. When they start calling those ticky-tack fouls (usually against only one team), it effectively takes those teams out of the game.
Oh, and you can lie to yourself as much as you want about the free throws in Game 6, but how can you explain the play where Kobe elbows Bibby in the nose, knocking him to the ground and causing his nose to bleed, and yet the foul is called on Bibby? That right there is proof that the NBA was fixing that game to take the series to 7 (I don’t think they were rigging the series in favor of the Lakers, but that they wanted to squeeze every penny out of it by making it go to 7 games). Had it been a no-call, you could almost argue the ref hadn’t seen it, but to call a foul on the player who received the elbow to the face? There’s no way of explaining that away.
They called a holding foul on Bibby prior to the elbow
When you’re defending someone without the ball and they try to get open, you’re not supposed to hold them. Usually the player who’s retaliating to being held gets called for an offensive foul when he sheds his defender and the defender falls down. No foul would have been called on either player if Bibby hadn’t fallen to the floor. In this specific case, the ref saw both fouls, and called the first foul.
by The Dude Abides on Dec 9, 2009 5:17 PM MST up reply actions
I completely agree
That was a foul on Bibby. Just because he was on the worse end of it does not mean that it shouldn’t have been a holding foul on him.
by Lakers Lover on Dec 10, 2009 11:30 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah...but the rest of that quarter? Pretty much a joke
With one exception (the 3-pointer by Samaki Walker in Game 4 that shouldn’t have been allowed), the Kings had been getting all the calls that whole series until the 4th quarter of Game 6, when the refs made up for it in one fell swoop. The last 30 seconds of Game 5 was particularly egregious, as was all of Game 2, which came at a vulnerable time for SAC. The road blowout of the Kings in Game 1 made it six straight easy playoff wins for the Lakers over the Kings. There was no way they were going to stay in the series without any help.
by The Dude Abides on Dec 11, 2009 3:46 PM MST up reply actions
When the Nuggets play the Lakers in Game 7 of the 2010 WCF ā and they will
I’ll take the odds against that – only because I live in LA and root for the Lakers – but because it’s such a specific prediction that chances are it won’t happen versus all the other possibilities!
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Dec 13, 2009 7:13 PM MST up reply actions
*NOT only because I live in LA and root for the Lakers
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Dec 13, 2009 7:14 PM MST up reply actions
If the bigger market teams didn’t have an unfair advantage, the championships would be more evenly distributed among all the teams in the league. That is why teams with the worst record draft first (at least before the lottery) and there is a salary cap. It is an effort to create parity in the league which obviously hasn’t worked. Teams find ways to circumvent the mechanisms in place to create parity in the league and big market teams retain their advantage. If it weren’t true then the small market teams would have just as many championships as the Lakers. You don’t see any cinderella teams winning the NBA championship[ the way you do the NCAAs.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
C'mon
That is because in the NCAA there is only one game per round so any team could get lucky. But in a seven game series the odds are in favor of the better team.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 11:24 AM MST up reply actions
Well, well, well
here we are again. This is fun, no? I just trudged my way through all of these comments and have thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it. I think my favorite part or at least a good highlight is the part where you say something about how all we do is whine about the NBA screwing us and not putting any blame on our team, players, coaches…come on man, youre better than that. read some of the other posts and recaps before you make that statement. I read a lot of your guys’ posts on SSR and find it very interesting that your actually upset about that fact that there are questions about whether or not Kobe, Phil, and the mighty LA Lakers Franchise could, maybe, possibly, might just, not quite sure, could be true, maybe get a little itsy bitsy teency weency amount of preferential treatment.
Your accusations of responding with sheer emotion on our part could be turned back on you. Your name is PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE. mine is STERNFLUFFSKOBE.
agree to disagree. Oh, and youre 100% right. I love my team, its fans, this city, and this state. So, yeah. I am fueled by emotion. because as a fan? thats all the control we have, so the fact that there might be some “nudging”, “fixing”, or “preferential treatment” is maddening cuz we just wanna see our team play the game PURE AND SIMPLE….
by SternfluffsKobe on Dec 9, 2009 12:20 PM MST up reply actions
Hello
hell yeah this is fun. Honestly, I am speaking for myself, I have an ounce of negative emotion towards none of the comments on here. It is not about that. As I said earlier, I am sure that not all Nuggets fans feel or see the game the same way. If my comments generalize Denver’s fan base, they are not anymore generilizing then the way Nuggets fans lump all Laker fans into one group.
So again, nothing maddening on my end. Really it’s not. I see holes in the arguments of other fans on this site and I will point them out. And you will never get me to agree that there is any favoritism towards the Lakers. show me the proof.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 9, 2009 3:00 PM MST up reply actions
The Lakers have appeared in HALF of all Finals in the league's history
Proof enough? Or are you going to shrug it off as their birthright, their manifest destiny? Gimme a break.
by Artimus Mangilord on Dec 9, 2009 3:11 PM MST up reply actions
I think that is a result of NBA history
There is a much more even playing field now than there has been in the past of the NBA. The Celtics still have the most titles despite hardly being a professional team from 1987 – 2008. They did most of their damage when the NBA had half as many teams. The Lakers of the 1980’s coasted through the Western Conference every year while the East would slug it out between Philly/Detroit/Boston and every year it was, “Who are the Lakers going to play in the Finals?” That’s like UCLA being considered a top college program by winning 10 titles in 11 years. It’s a lot different now, but those numbers still stand out tremendously. Doesn’t take anything away from them.
Probably not the most eloquent way to make a point but nobody will ever convince me that the game is fixed. Watch the game with your brain more than you watch it with your heart. You guys have Melo marhcing to the line way more than Kobe does even though he “gets all the calls” but you would love Kobe if he was on your team just like every other NBA fan would. I like Melo’s game, I think he has a chance to be the second best player in the league behind Kobe. He’s got the best jump shot out of that rookie class that he came in with but he doesn’t play any defense just like LeBron or Wade.
See you in the playoffs.
by Lakers Lover on Dec 10, 2009 11:47 AM MST up reply actions
I like the reference to manifest destiny
great choice of words. BUT! that is meaningless.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 10, 2009 11:55 AM MST up reply actions
Should get the guys on SS&R to address this
I’m sure they have way more empirical proof about those WCF games. I hate when people bring them up. Watch the games again instead of just looking at the box score from 7-9 years ago.
by Lakers Lover on Dec 10, 2009 11:58 AM MST up reply actions
It’s not supposed to be a game of luck. Are you saying Villanova beat Georgetown because they were lucky? They won because they played better. The fact of the matter is that the guys who are officiating the NCAA tournament are the best officials in the world, not the NBA officials. In that world there are no superstar calls. Part of that is because those officials don’t work for any school or the NCAA. They work as independent contractors.
The seven game series argument doesn’t wash against the big market argument. Face it, the deck is stacked and stacked in your favor. The NBA has lost a lot of market to people who know it.
"Woohoo Denver, Yeah... All right Denver justify my love!" ...Homer Simpson
This right here
If the bigger market teams didnāt have an unfair advantage, the championships would be more evenly distributed among all the teams in the league.
That’s undebatable.
In the NFL, the team with the most Super Bowl appearances is the Cowboys, who have gone 8 times out of a possible 43. LESS THAN 20%. There are only 5 teams left, out of 32, who’ve never been, and 3 of those are expansion teams. And look at the Saints this year — they might finally make it, and reduce that number to 4.
This is because the NFL cares deeply about parity, and works to acheive it. “On any given Sunday,” indeed.
In the NBA, on the other hand, you have the commisioner saying he wishes that every year the Finals could just be “The Lakers vs. the Lakers.”
The NBA doesn’t care about parity. They’re happy to have the Lakers go to the finals 30 times out of a possible 62. NEARLY 50%. The commisioner says so.
It’s undebatable.
by ParkHillNative on Dec 9, 2009 2:15 PM MST up reply actions
Actually
I’m not even a Denver fan. I like the team (some players more than others) but I don’t consider myself a Denver fan. I saw this link on a Yahoo article and followed it because of the intriguing title.
Anyway, pretty much no team wins as much as the fans would want them to. The fact is that some team has to suck every year (in some cases, a handful of teams) because if everyone was evenly matched a league just wouldn’t work. The problem people have with the Lakers is that they never have to go through the low years. Yeah, they missed the playoffs once and got eliminated early the other times, but there are teams that go years without making the playoffs and who never advance past the first or second round. It’s because LA is a storied franchise (just like Boston) and they have the biggest market, so the owners can pay the luxury tax to get better players. To put it plainly, it’s unfair to other teams. The point of a salary cap is to level the playing field, but the bottom line is that the NBA benefits from the Lakers doing well so they’ll never put a real salary cap in place.
You simply can’t deny that the Lakers don’t enoy SOME level of preferential treatment from the league. I’m not saying that the league fixes it so the Lakers win. I don’t think it’s that big of a conspiracy, but I just don’t see how you can deny some of it. Hell, my boyfriend and a couple of my best friends, who are diehard Laker fans, are the first ones to admit that the Lakers aren’t treated like every other team.
-1
You are missing the point and havenāt watched enough Lakers, Spurs, or Cavs games. If you are watching those teams play you will see how awful the refereeing is in their favor. Why do the refs blow the whistle 1000 times every Spurs game? Because they have to slow the game down to give their team a chance. They know that if they can keep it close late then the Spurs veteran squad should be able to keep their cool and pull out the W.
Many scenarios like this play out in the NBA all the time. The big one against the Nugs is the whistle stopping runs. No team in the league can take a game from a 2 point lead to a 25 point lead in as short a span of time as the Nugs. When the Nugs are in a fixed (or nudged) game they start to make that run and you can feel the air being let out of the other teamās baloon. Nugs go up 8 and get another steal. Billups is breaking with JR and only one defender is back to cover. Billups fakes the pass and the defender leans towards JR. Billups goes to the rack and the defender jumps back into the side of Billups and what happens next? You would think a three point play but instead you get a whistle for a charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is the most vivid example I have but could go on for days talking about the whistle stopping Nugs runs. Other teams that this effects are the Orlando Magic, Houston Rockets, and Utah Jazz. I am sure that there are probably 20 or so other teams that have their legitimate gripes but if you are getting your opinions from reading perspectives of Laker fans then you are being misled.
by Gasus on Dec 9, 2009 2:48 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
You (Gasus) said it before (in another post): you whistle a team’s stud twice early in the first and it won’t show up on any freethrow analysis or any statistics whatsoever and you (sneaky motherfucking ref) have completely and totally altered that game. You (rotten bastard referee) can also crush a team’s momentum doing exactly what Gasus points out here and AGAIN, nowhere will you find statistical analysis that proves any sort of “nudging” but it sure-as-Hell happened!
I say make the refs endure a 20 minute (max) press conference after every game. Personally, if I knew that somebody was going to call me out in public on a bad call, I’d be very careful and try and make the right call, the right way every time. I’d be the guy shooting for empty press conferences after each game I called. Empty because nobody took issue with the way I called the game!
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
Great idea on the press conference
I’ve heard that somewhere else too
Disagree
I would tend to think it would make the refs more sensitive to criticism and distraction, since they’d be worried less about objectivity, and more about how things might appear and the criticism they will take afterwards.
by Artimus Mangilord on Dec 10, 2009 10:54 AM MST up reply actions
Really?
Wouldn’t having to answer to someone for their calls make them have justification and in turn call a fair game? I don’t get your line of thinking here…
Criticism is what the NBA referees need. It is pathetic and unjust the way the game is now. If they had to answer for their calls through video even it could help.
Sympathy for the devil
I agree that bad calls are made from time to time, but are there that many to justify having a press conference after every game where these guys are effectively put in front of a firing squad?
by Artimus Mangilord on Dec 10, 2009 4:29 PM MST up reply actions
100% For Sure
I think the referees in the NBA are completely out of control. If you read through this post you will see there are many here who agree with me. There is this former referee that has come out and said that all the referees he worked with made biased calls and influenced the outcome of games. Way more than enough…
Tell you the truth, I wouldn’t mind linning up the whole lot and executing them for real! On public television.
I've read the posts
I think the press conference idea only addresses the symptoms, whereas, um, lining them up as you said is the way to go to address the root problem. I really wish the refs would have held out into the season so we would have had some fresh blood. Sure, would’ve been sloppy at first, but change always comes at a price.
by Artimus Mangilord on Dec 10, 2009 5:02 PM MST up reply actions
Just one thing to say to the Purple and Gold genius
You say that all we do is blame our troubles on the refs and everyone else, never actually placing blame on our own organization…umm hmm, what was the original name of Denver Stiffs again? Oh thats right it was firegeorgekarl.com but you wouldn’t know that because you’d rather not even bother to actually read what we say before you pop off and start spouting nonsense and false accusations, and why would you? life is good when the blinders are on aye
It was also Pickaxe and Roll.com ... ha ha!
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
by Nate Timmons on Dec 10, 2009 8:44 AM MST up reply actions
I was a part of firegeorgekarl.com
I used to post on it all the time. I had great conversations and it never got into this big name calling childish behavior. But when comments like:
Fakers and Kobe’s court case then that brought down the quality of the debates/conversations. I can’t get into those type of comments. Too old for that. I think since the name has changed so has the point of view of the fans. I used to love firegeorgekarl.com. I even used to email the guy who started it. At the time those fans did really hold the Nuggets accountable and there weren’t any topics about why other teams were so good. It was great basketball topics. Not anymore. Just read some of the comments by the fans now and you tell me if the quality of the conversations haven’t gone down.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 10, 2009 9:14 AM MST up reply actions
So much for your theory
The Lakers’ following is not just a function of their large market. Look at their Staples Center co-tenants: the Clippers. The Clippers averaged 16,170 fans at home games and only 38,000 television viewers on average.
It is up to the fans to support their team. That is what makes you a big market team.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 10, 2009 9:09 AM MST reply actions
so dumb
that you can’t explain why the argument of being in a big market is so dumb because then tell me how the clippers are not as good as the Lakers then? Tell us Gasus. Or is the best that you can do as far as comeback?
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 10, 2009 12:00 PM MST up reply actions
clippers
The Clippers are the red-headed stepchild around there. Again, as I said below, the Lakers have been in town for a quarter century longer than the Clippers.
The Clippers seem to suffer primarily because they’re so badly run, but I actually think it probably also hurts them to share a city and a gym with the Lakers.
I think a couple of things are true here, but you seem to only recognize one of them:
1. The Lakers are a well-run organization that’s committed to winning and makes good use of their resources;
and
2. The Lakers have way more resources at their disposal than the majority of other teams.
Institute a firm salary cap with no luxury tax, and enforce absolute even revenue sharing among all teams, and the Lakers would still probably do pretty well under the guidance of their ownership and management — but they wouldn’t be nearly as dominant, nearly as often as they are.
I really think you Laker fans are deluding yourselves if you can’t see that.
by ParkHillNative on Dec 10, 2009 1:08 PM MST up reply actions
So it's not just being in a big market
Because obviously the Clippers don’t qualify.
You have to be in the league for a shorter time, and share a city. Then the big market rules don’t apply.
I get it now.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Dec 13, 2009 7:34 PM MST up reply actions
Trying to follow your logic
So Laker ‘fans’ are bandwagoners then? Okay, I get it now. Since I know it’s your favorite topic, it follows that if Kobe were doin’ time here in Colorado, you’d be rooting for the Clippers.
by Artimus Mangilord on Dec 10, 2009 11:04 AM MST up reply actions
every team has bandwagon fans.
what are you talking about? I am a fan of the Lakers more than any individual player. there was a point where Kobe could have ended up playing in chicago or the clippers but i’m not a fan of the Lakers because of Kobe i’m a fan of Kobe because he is on the Lakers. That will never change. I love the Lakers no matter who is on the team. Get it? PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE! through and through…
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 10, 2009 11:59 AM MST up reply actions
Lakers have been in LA since 1960. Clippers didn’t arrive until 1984.
by ParkHillNative on Dec 10, 2009 11:09 AM MST up reply actions
I have a theory
If your team’s mascot starts with an L, you get all the calls. Prove me wrong.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

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