K-Mart for Shaq: Would you make this deal?...
by Andrew Feinstein on Dec 3, 2009 9:51 AM MST
in News and Opinion
109 comments
The Cavaliers need an athletic, quick, tough power forward. The Nuggets need cap relief. If the Cavaliers offered Shaquille O'Neal to the Nuggets for Kenyon Martin, should the Nuggets make that deal? It deserves some serious consideration...
How many more games do the Cleveland Cavaliers need to play before realizing that the acquisition of Shaquille O'Neal has been an utter failure? As noted in last week's Stiff List, without O'Neal the Cavs are 5-1. With him, 7-4 (including losses to the Raptors, Bulls at home and the Bobcats).
But that record doesn't tell the whole story.
Watch any Cavs game with Shaq on the floor, and it becomes immediately evident that he clogs up the middle, slows the game to a halt and, even worse, contributes next to nothing defensively. Moreover, not only weren't the Cavs hurting at center to begin with, but the center they had/have - Zydrunas Ilgauskas - may have been/may be the perfect center to play alongside LeBron James. After all, the Big Z can hit a long jump shot from anywhere on the floor, forcing opposing defensive big men to play him outside while leaving the lane wide open for an LBJ dunk or drive-and-dish to an open teammate.
(On a side note, I found myself in an elevator once with the Big Z at the historic Boston Harbor Hotel in downtown Boston. At a legitimate 7'3", the poor guy had to completely bend his head and arch his back down to fit into the tiny elevator. Nice guy, though!)
If you watched the Cavs play last season, their biggest problem wasn't at center but rather, power forward. Anderson Varejao is a nice change-of-pace, wreaking havoc, flopping pest for 20 or so backup minutes, but you don't want him as your featured power forward late in games (remember his shot attempts against the Spurs in the 2007 NBA Finals? Ghastly!). The Cavs are in dire need of a power forward who brings Varejao's defensive toughness and peskiness, but can also finish on a fast break and will get out of LBJ's way on the offensive side of the floor. The Nuggets just so happen to have such a player in Kenyon Martin.
Having spent over six seasons learning how to play alongside Carmelo Anthony, K-Mart would be a great fit for Cleveland. With K-Mart on board at the four spot, the Cavs could move the Big Z back to being starting center and fill out their lineup with LBJ at small forward while their backcourt combo of Mo Williams at point guard and Anthony Parker at shooting guard stays in-tact. As another plus, rather than having Big Z eat up meaningful bench minutes the Cavs bench would be comprised entirely of their "energy foursome" of Delonte West (when he's on his meds), Varejao, Daniel Gibson and Jamario Moon. Now that's a team that can contend with Orlando and Boston in a conference final.
And while K-Mart's salary (more on that momentarily) might be tough to swallow for Cleveland, it will feel a lot better if K-Mart helps get LBJ back to the NBA Finals meaning LBJ will be more apt to stay in Cleveland. (And yes, I know I predicted that LBJ might go to the Nets to be coach by George Karl just a few days ago. While I believe LBJ will stay in Cleveland - and why would those Chinese investors pony up to own the Cavs if LBJ is walking? - I also believe if he goes anywhere, it's to the Nets.)
By now you're probably thinking: you haven't said one good thing about Shaq, so why the @#$% would the Nuggets do this deal?
For the Nuggets, it's all about economics. Shaq's $20 million salary comes off the books at the end of this season, whereas K-Mart's is still owed $16.5 million next season. (It should be noted that the money due to K-Mart next season is a "player's option," but I have a sneaky suspicion he'll be exercising it. Thank you, Kiki Vandeweghe. K-Mart's contract is the gift that keeps on giving.) Also, K-Mart's $15.4 million salary this season is close enough to Shaq's $20 million that the Nuggets would only have to use a little trade exception money to make the numbers work.
Before you accuse me of asking the Nuggets to throw away this season just to get K-Mart's salary off the books, consider this: next season, Melo, Chauncey Billups, K-Mart, Nene and J.R. Smith's salaries combined will be $64.2 million - expected to be near the luxury tax line in 2010. Throw in Chris Andersen's $4 million due for next season and the Nuggets are guaranteed to be at or over the tax line paying the salaries of just six players. Last I checked, that's less than half of a 13-man NBA roster.
If this deal actually happened (and remember, I've suggested crazier deals before...like the time I proposed trading Allen Iverson to Detroit for Billups and Antonio McDyess way before it actually went down), what would it mean for this season? How would it affect the Nuggets on the floor?
In theory Shaq would give us the center we desperately desire, enabling Nene to dominate at power forward (Nene's more natual position). In theory Shaq would give the Nuggets much needed size to go up against the bigger Western Conference teams. And in theory Shaq would be so amped up to get revenge against his former team, the Lakers, that he'd give the Nuggets a much needed ally in their war with L.A. with one more burst of energy for the remainder of the season and into the playoffs before riding off into the sunset. And lest we forget, good Shaq or bad Shaq, he puts asses in the seats (admit it, you'd watch every game with Shaq in a Nuggets powder blue and gold jersey).
But these are the same arguments that recently duped Phoenix and Cleveland into acquiring Shaq. And watching the 37-year-old center "play" these last few weeks, I can't with a straight face say that he'd be good for the Nuggets on the floor. Shaq would undoubtedly clog up the lane for Melo and Nene and slow down the Nuggets overall pace, which is what makes the Nuggets so deadly in the first place...especially at Pepsi Center. It shouldn't be a surprise that a Suns team sans Shaq is back to running teams off the floor en route to a top two record in the Western Conference right now.
Furthermore, in spite of the inexcusably unacceptable loss to the Timberwolves on Sunday night and another bad loss to the Clippers a few weeks ago, at 13-5 the Nuggets have tied their best start in franchise history and have a good thing going. The players seem to genuinely like each other, seem to listen to head coach George Karl (at least a majority of the time) and it feels like they haven't even played that well yet. (They also haven't played that many good teams yet...it has to be said.) As-is, we're looking at back-to-back-to-back 50-win seasons and another shot at the conference finals, if not more if the Nuggets catch a few breaks.
That said, if we - and/or Nuggets management - truly believe that this incarnation of the Nuggets, constructed as-is, can beat the Lakers and march into the NBA Finals then I say fine; let's see how the season plays out and hope for the best. Maybe Kobe Bryant or Pau Gasol will get injured. Maybe the Lakers will get shorter. Who knows.
But if we - and/or Nuggets management - think that another Western Conference Finals appearance is the best this team can do, why not bring in Shaq and unburden ourselves of K-Mart's contract? At the very least, the Nuggets would remain a top five team in the West, would be fascinating to watch, would make any Nuggets/Lakers games and a possible playoff series an instant ESPN Classic and, most importantly, would free the Nuggets up financially to be a player in the 2010 free agent sweepstakes. As of today, the only free agents the Nuggets will be able to afford next summer will be from the D-League.
K-Mart for Shaq? Would you make this deal?
Like I said at the top of this column, it deserves some serious consideration.
Shaquille O'Neal photo courtesy of Getty Images: Isaac Baldizon
Kenyon Martin photo courtesy of AP Photos: David Zalubowski
0 recs |
109 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Probably not
Offensively, this deal would make a lot of sense. Defensively, I think we would really miss K-Mart. Since defense is already an issue in this young season, I vote no.
Dint you mean...
without O’Neal the Cavs are 5-1. With him, 7-4 (including losses to the Raptors, Bulls at home and the Bobcats)???
That's a typo obviously
Good catch. I’ll fix it when I get back to my desk. And here I thought I proof-read it enough!
Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com
by Andrew Feinstein on Dec 2, 2009 12:59 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Andrew, perhaps
you should replace Shaq at the #4 spot on today’s stiff list for this outrageous suggestion.
Seriously, while I’ll accept your economic arguments, I’d rather watch the Nuggets have a shot at the Conference finals again and go down in flames against LA than see Shaq soil a Nuggets jersey.
No, nein, non, jo, nun, enna, ná, ne, naheen
… and this is coming from someone who likes Shaq.
And while I think K-Mart is overpaid, he is still one hell of a player who offers the team so much more than what comes across in the box score.
Uh...
Have you checked out Kenyon’s numbers this year? Besides Melo, one could argue that K-Mart is the only guy on the roster that is exceeding expectations. Shaq would slow us down everytime he took the court unless, of course, he’s in a suit on the sidelines like he has been for most of this season so far…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
Goons...
I’ll probably write a fanpost someday about why the NBA needs goons (NHL-style) to keep things honest on the court. In the meantime, I would suggest that losing K-Mart would be akin to losing almost 100% of our toughness. I’m not sure about anyone else, but when games get chippy (like they ALWAYS do in the playoffs and during “rivalry” type games,) I am always very pleased that K-Mart is in the arena…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Dec 2, 2009 1:03 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Where have all the Goons gone?
Not a great article but interesting none-the-less:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/30580-nba-where-have-all-the-goons-gone
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
question
Is it fair to say that any almost any truly sizable center would clog the lane?
I think we do need another big man but there are very few with legitimate size who could keep up with the Nuggets style of play.
I’ve also liked K-Mart’s play so far this year. We would miss him, and complain to no end about how terrible Shaq is playing while he made the adjustment to the team.
This is the type of question that GM's must face every season ...
There is no doubt that this is the type of trade that would in the short-term cause a lot of controversy not only among the fans, but from what I gather about the team … among the players as well. There is no doubt that Kenyon is the heart-and-soul of the defense as well as the “goon” as Big Mickey D points out. If there is ever tension on the court among anyone (see Birdman vs. Lamar Odom in the preseason and regular season) K-Mart is the first guy there to get the attention away from his teammates and to step in himself. We saw in the playoffs that he’s not afraid to rough guys up to send a message either.
In a perfect world, Kenyon would agree to restructure his contract after this season … decline his player option of $16.5 million and re-sign with Denver for 3-4 years at around the mid-level exception or a big higher. But the NBA is a business and there is no way you could turn down that kind of money and we all know it.
The question of what to do about Kenyon’s contract has been posed by fans even before the ink dried from his signature.
Short-term this is the type of deal that could tear a team apart and maybe send the Nuggets back to a place they haven’t visited since drafting Carmelo Anthony … the lottery.
Long-term though … this could be the savvy move that would allow Denver to rebuild a bit on the fly and remain competitive down the road.
The only problem if you did this deal from Denver’s front office perspective … who do you bring in that is younger, cheaper and can do what Kenyon did for this team? Or do you look at it another way and do what Andrew wants and replace Kenyon eventually with a true center like Marc Gasol?
If you go the Gasol route (remember he’s not a free agent until the 2011-12 season) then you’d have Nene playing power forward and you’d have a totally different looking Nuggets team that may be a bit soft (considering you don’t find a tough guy replacement on the cheap for K-Mart.)
Another idea … the “Have your cake and eat it too” idea: Marc Gasol become a free agent the same season K-Mart does (2001-12) … what if Denver was able to sign Gasol then with the money they’ll free up with K-Mart’s contract running out and even bring K-Mart back on the cheap since he’ll be a few years older, but still perhaps pretty useful?
Keep in mind that Denver will be trying to re-sign J.R. Smith (unrestricted) and must offer a qualifying offer to make Arron Afflalo ($2.9 million) a restricted free agent (if he garners it.)
I guess the only thing I can be thankful for here is that I’m not a GM that is saddled with a burden like this. Also, this was a nice change of pace post by Andrew that gets fans thinking about not only this season, but the future.
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
Oh Andrew, gettin' into the moonshine again are we?
This is absurd. I don’t care how much financial “relief” it gives the team, bringing in the Shaqtus will waist another year of Chauncey’s legs. It would cripple any chance Melo has of running for the MVP. It alters the style of play that helps Denver sports team excel. We lose our defensive “heart”/enforcer/Goon/muscle/Bad Yellow MoFo (check his tattoo). And we set ourselves up for a shitload of stupid Shaq-Mountain nicknames and comparisons.
I can imagine Hastings, Marlow, and Hanzlick using any or all of the words and phrases below in connection with O’Neil
He’s the newest mountain on the front range
Shaq’s Slope
bigfoot
rock mass
as imovable as a mountain
It’s like having a mountain in the lane on defense
etc, etc, etc
This isn’t even mentioning the horrible BlackJack commercial he’d be roped into mumbling “Blajack stick wit a home team”. Or a Good Feet commercial that would haunt my dreams…“With feet this big you have to make sure their ‘Good’ with the Good Feet arch support system.”
In short HELL NO!
by Joelsopinion on Dec 2, 2009 1:47 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
There will be only one ... Mt. Mutombo.
Pretty funny post overall.
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
Had not considered that aspect
“Getting him up and down the court is like trying to move a mountain”
“A front court as big as the front range”
“The Big Prospector”
I’m sure Marlowe would try to make some akward comparison between Shaq in powder blue and that big blue bear sculpture outside the convention center.
by Artimus Mangilord on Dec 2, 2009 2:58 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
The Big Prospector +1
Some one who can draw (hint, hint Andy) should scribble out a comic of Shaq, the Big Blue Bear, and the Evil DIA Bronco fighting for front range dominance.
Gets me thinking
Hell, we might want to pull this trade just so we could get some damn comic relief around this organization. Things have been way too serious lately.
A quick rebuttle...
I think a lot of you aren’t seeing the forest from the trees. First off, I didn’t once say the Nuggets should do this, I’m simply suggesting they consider it. Secondly, I didn’t once say that the Nuggets would be better with Shaq over K-Mart and even noted that they’d be worse. Third, no one is happier than me with K-Mart’s defense and “goon”-ish presence.
All that said, no one can deny that K-Mart’s contract is an albatross and is never going to be restructured. And thus, if Cleveland was amenable to such a deal, the Nuggets would have to consider it as they could bring in two free agents for the cost of one K-Mart next summer. Then you’re surrounding the big young three – Melo, Nene and J.R. – with a supporting cast that makes the Nuggets contenders for years into the future.
I just thought it was worth discussing. Now back to my moonshine…
Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com
by Andrew Feinstein on Dec 2, 2009 2:41 PM MST reply actions
I like Moonshine!
But I’m still not up for this deal. Several people have said that you can’t combine the trade exemption with a player. If that’s true, it’s very hard to make the numbers work without including another significant player.
As you have said, it doesn’t help this year, even if Shaq plays. I think there is a very good chance he ends the season on injured reserve, and at a minimum missing significant time. Who do they play if Shaq is injured?
I don’t think the trade helps sign free agents. Even without his contract, they’d be over the salary cap, if not the luxury tax, so they still wouldn’t be able to sign free agents. So it’s a repeat of the Camby trade – pure salary dump for nothing in return.
I also don’t think it is necessary to take this deal in order to move K-mart. I think K-marts contract will have a good amount of value next offseason, and certainly a huge value once the season has started. If you trade him during next season, you could pull a McDyess deal where the other team does a buyout and he resigns with Denver. If you trade him during the offseason, you could get some good value. A sign and trade to someone who doesn’t want to committ to a long term deal, or perhaps a good draft pick from someone looking for an expiring contract.
I guess I like the idea of moving K-mart, but only for the right package that returns something that helps in the long term. This trade hurts in the short term, and doesn’t really gain any thing we can’t get other ways in the long term.
"...if Cleveland was amenable to such a deal..."
Why would they be amenable besides the stretch argument that K-Mart might help LaBron get a championship? (And THAT, Andrew, is a fairly epic stretch…) Why would Cleveland spend more on K-Mart next year than they have EVER spent on LaBron? And with new, foreign ownership? Why would they do any of this at all when they probably are not even in the LaBron sweepstakes for next year? There are just so many WHYS…
I LOVE this site. I truly do. But it seems to me that well over 90% of the trades that we entertain here end up making ZERO sense for the other team.
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
Kenyon the disappearing act
Kenyon of the infamous leg-grab,
the 2-22 performance against Duncan when the Nets went to the finals,
the refusal to come up big at any time he was actually needed
the bad-ass attitude backed up by 20ft bricks
the tendency to commit stupid fouls
the complete lack of leadership when needed
always ready to pick up a silly tech
one good game followed by three bad ones
I don’t like Shaq much but the Nuggets will never win a championship with Kenyon at PF.
If Shaq comes he shouldn’t start, and should play the majority of his time with a shooting squad. Billups, Earl, AA, Melo.
The other positive of this trade would be the additional rest Nene would get. Anyone else remember how worn down he was at the end of the year last year. We need to keep that from happening again.
Finally we would have an excellent product on the floor to sell to FA’s. In reality a team very close to a championship. Hopefully someone would bite. Also, Kenyon only has two more good years anyway, and his good isn’t all that great.
I think we all see the forest ...
and realize the how bad Kenyon’s contract is for the Nuggets. For me personally, I don’t like Shaq and would prefer the offering of an alternate poison-pill. But, if Cleveland and the Nuggets pulled the trigger on this one, I agree it would be good in the not too long term.
by JTR on Dec 3, 2009 8:29 AM MST up reply actions
No
Interesting argument, and as much as i HATE K-Mart’s contract, i think the Nuggs would miss him way more than we think they would. He is the quarterback for the defense and i dont think Shaq would contribute as much as Kenyon.
MELO!!!
MileHighReport.com
DenverStiffs.com
Economics
Regardless of how you feel about K-Mart and Shaq this raises a very good point why it really makes sense to consider it. With the salary cap going down next year Denver is going to be balls deep in the luxury tax with only a few players. Last season we had trouble adding players because of all the salary but the front office did a great job with trades. Next year is going to be even worse in terms of trying to add player, like they may need 4 or 5 minimum salary dudes
I think there is a fire sale coming next year, someone is going to get traded anyways unless Denver wins a championship. If your going to slash payroll doing it now could give you a lot more flexibility going forward and allow you to get back on track quicker. I have to say no because I really want the Nugs to seize this opportunity to distinguish themselves as a top squad in the L, something almost unprecedented in Nuggets history considering last year tied the franchise record for wins. The jury is still out on this team for me, they have the talent but I don’t feel they are trying to get to the top of that mountain or die trying.
If Denver doesn’t reach their goals this year then something like this maybe coming sooner or later anyways.
by runningdonut on Dec 2, 2009 2:48 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
The 2010-11 salary breakdown ...
Denver has 9 players under contract next season (2010-11) and the salary total is: $73.3 million.
This season the salary total is: $74.8 million.
Here are the Nuggets expiring contracts:
1.) Antonio McDyess: $3 million (yes, we’re paying him to play for the Spurs as Andrew has pointed out before.)
2.) Anthony Carter: $1.3 million
3.) Malik Allen: $1.3 million
4.) Joey Graham: $884,881
5.) Johan Petro: $884,881
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
I down for a firesale right now
Look guys, I would love to win a ship more than anybody. But can you seriously look yourself in the mirror and say we could beat the Lakers? We couldn’t beat them last year when we were all inspired by Chauncy and playing great defense, how are we going to beat them this year with an older lineup and no offseason moves, when the Lakers brought in Ron “Hennessy” Artest and have a heathly Bynum. It’s just not gonna happen, I hate to break it to you. So why not, while we can get something, trade K-Mart, bring in Shaq for full filled year of classic Marlowe and Hastings quotes, make the playoffs, try and do some damage, then go home happy and try and make some big signings from the class of ’10 with the extra mula we will have? I think Andrew actually has something here with this if you look a bit closer. And after all, he is the Ms. (or Mr.) Cleo of predicting trades.
by GoldenNugget on Dec 2, 2009 10:02 PM MST up reply actions
We definitely could win THIS year.
I can seriously look in the mirror and say that we could beat the Lakers. Especially if we had homecourt advantage. But even if we didn’t, we could definitely beat them. We were a lot closer to beating them last year then it looked. Take a few bad inbounds plays away and we might have won it in 5 games. But we are even better this year. We actually have a legit backup point guard who dominated the lakers when they came to town. And AA is ten times better then Dauntay was. Will we beat the lakers this year? I don’t know, it could go either way. But saying that we have no shot at a championship and should start a firesale is not only premature but a little foolish. Especially with Chauncey getting up there in age. Winning a championship is incredibly difficult, so I wouldn’t put any money down on us doing so. But this team definitely has a decent chance, this year and with this team.
agreed.
Other than Lamar Odom picking it up in the last like 3 games….I considered our main problems against the lakers to be dahntay jones and Carter. Kobe left dahntay in the corner multiple times and would double on Melo or whoever got the ball in the paint. Gotta respect Afflalo’s jumper. Not to mention AC who Ty is waaaaay better than.
Also…how many times did we see AC guarding Kobe….ugh.
by GottaLoveMelo on Dec 3, 2009 12:13 PM MST up reply actions
+1
The lakers are a good to great team. They have an imposing front court that couldn’t beat a Rockets team with no actual Center. And their very talented bench, that dropped a game to a Warriors team with a 7-8 man rotaion. Let’s not forget, that they also lost to a Nuggets team that pushed them to the edge last season. Yeah, yeah, yeah they were on a B2B games…So what! they flat out got beat. They are not invincible. The West is not owed to them, either is the Finals.
by Joelsopinion on Dec 3, 2009 12:25 PM MST up reply actions
Ask yourself this before you get too excited
Could George Karl EVER beat Phil Jackson in a 7 game series?
If we could get Ronnie ...
to share his half-time juice with Bynum, then anything would be possible!
by JTR on Dec 3, 2009 8:35 AM MST up reply actions
Damn runningdonut...
You beat me to it. Count me on the team of “firesale”. I don’t want it to happen but if the current team get’s to the say the WCF and taps out at 6 again, look for it.
As for the trade proposed, while interesting, for all of the reasons the folks above me have pointed out, the answer would be no. If nothing else, I would vote no because I would constantly have nightmares of that god awful Shaq-Fu video game from the mid 90’s.
Shaq-Fu, yes!!!!!
I played that game way too much, Beast! that little cat chick, Voodoo and her emperor rip off of a dad, the crazy mummy dude, wasn’t there a guy in there with tomahawks? oh so many great memories, the game was quite terrible though aye, not sure why i played it so much. As for the firesale, I think without a trip to the finals it will need to happen and I’m pretty sure everyone except Melo, CB and Ty will be on the block
If this goes down, hopefully after the All-Star...
Ive been dreaming for Nene to blossom into our All-Star center!
+1
Nene seems (to me) to be getting very close to what we want him to be. A trade right now that changes his position or playing time seems like two steps back…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
interesting
So, if they want, they can basically return the entire team that plays outside of garbage time and add a few back of the roster type players. If they are willing to spend the money they can bring in a mid-level center and be in position to make a legitimate run for a championship. Unless they get blown away in an offer for Martin, I say do keep the team as is and sign a midlevel guy.
Absolutly Awful
Andrew really hates Kenyon and this is direct evidence. Kmart leads this team’s defense and without him they’d be a bunch of soft pussies. Shaq has turned into a fat old man that just sits in the middle of the lane and hopes his hook shot doesn’t air ball. Absolutely terrible.
I don't think Andrew hates K-Mart
I think he just hates his contract. If you equate K-Mart to cars, it’s like paying for a BMW M6 but only getting about an M3’s worth of performance. Sure an M3 is a bad ass car, but if you’re going to pay for an M6 (ahem Kiki) you want the damn M6!
Agreed on the contract
But as far as value provided to the team I would have him earning the same salary as Billups and both of them just under Melo. Kmart is a vet so maybe a contract the same as Melo’s is justified because of the way the NBA structures them. Is it really that big of a stretch for what he provides this team? My opinion is no and that there are many worse contracts out there.
This post makes me want to quit reading this blog as I feel it is highly uneducated in a baskeball sense. Sure, the money would be nice but you have no clue what the Nugs are made of if you are entertaining a Kmart for Shaq trade. The Nugs have a true shot at the title this year and the last thing they are going to do is blow it up at 13 and 5 for an old ass center that will move Nene to his “natural” position. I would move Nene way before Kmart but that is just me I guess.
A bit overdramatic
It was just an article to get some convo going. But if you have somewhere else you need to be that is more of an “educated” Nuggets site, please be on your way. Just remember, you ARE a fan of the Nuggets…
by GoldenNugget on Dec 2, 2009 10:14 PM MST up reply actions
No one Hates K-Mart
It’s just the contract. And as huge and imovable as that contract is, I’m not willing to support mailing in the season. The team as structured will compete. There is no such thing as a sure title shot in basketball, which is why they play 82 games. Brining in Shaq is like saying that it’s impossible to win a title now so build for the future. We alraedy did that and we’re reaping the benefits of that restructuring, in the form of winning seasons and playoff W’s.
If ever we traded K-Mart it had better be a damn good trade. Not something that would make watching Nuggets games almost OK. K-Mart brings leadership, Defense, athletisism, and entertainment. A good trade would mean we get all of that plus a little extra. This IMO is not a viable trade.
Big Fat No
This team has earned the right to fight for a title this year and this deal would throw it all away. Shaq would just get in the way (literally). I for one am exited to finally have some stability in Denver. This team isnt perfect but they deserve to stay together at least one more year and take one more shot at the Lakers. Kenyon makes a lot of money, get over it. I do like the wait for Gasol, resign Kenyon cheap idea though.
no way
though i think it is important that the nuggets find a big man to get in on some of those offensive boards and put a stop to easy buckets when the rest of the guys forget how to play defense, shaq is WAY past his prime. too old and too slow and i think its really important to avoid throwing off melo’s offensive game when he’s on the cusp of finally being fully recognized for the incredible player he is.
i’m a fan of k-mart, the suspensions, technicals, pouting, and all. i think he’s really important on defense and as you said in your post, he’s learned how to play with carmelo anthony. because his contract is expensive it might be a good idea to consider something after this season in combination with a big-man deal, but let’s not do anything rash here.
I dont like it, kmart has been great this year (not justifying his contract, but playing rly good, ive loved his attitude, excpet shooting everytime he touches the ball)
but what you make it sound like is that with kmart the team only has the starters left, well true but the only players we lose from this year are, AC, petro, graham and allen…. we could get better players for the minimum plus we will have our MLE…. so its not like denver is screwed completely, they just will pay the same as this year….
also who do u think r some players you think would take the full MLE and play for a contendor…..
some FA the nuggets could look at/ get in 2010(cuz we r gna have our around 6 mil MLe, which can give a player around a five year 30 mil contract): haslem, brad miller, tracy mccgrady, david lee, jermaine oneil, channing frye (not sure might have a player option), marcus camby, russul butler, raja bell, big Z, and shaq
of those realistcly we could get mayb…. haslem, miller, butler or o’neil
No, Hell No!
Would you re-plant a beetle-infested old age Lodgepole pine tree in a forest of Blue Spruces ? We have a couple of those already and they pretty much ride pine on the bench.
If we really want to free up some dollars, I would trade Billups and move Lawson into the starter role.
shaq or kmart: why i am forced to drink myself to oblivion
wow, this is a 50/50 call. Shaq is a waste of space right now, not saying he couldnt get here fired up, and be something of the center we need, or that steve hess couldnt have him healthy and ready to take it up a notch (Hess is a genius). And we wouldnt give much up as far as free throws or shooting (no to either one of them doing either). And it would be very “big” body in the middle. But Kmart is a far better defender (something we need) Plays with fire, and isnt afraid to get his T’s when he has to make a point. So looking at it from a playing point, you would say keep Kmart. But like andrew said, what about the team for next year. If ownership shows relectuance to pay over the salary cap this year, how will next year work when they are very heavily over the salary cap. I agree with the statement that Kmar is a good player, and valuable to the team, but never has he been worth the yearly salary we have paid for him. In this regard I think we are dammed if we do, dammed if we dont. After much soul searching though, if i had to make the choice, i would say keep kenyon, and then i would hit my liqour store. Shoot maybe we can see if the Admiral is available, he still looks to be in playing shape.
As a side note, I think Kenyon Martins contract was the 3rd greatest blunder of all time, the 2nd never get involved in a land war in asia, and the greates blunder, never go in against a sicilian when his life is on the line…
"No more rhymes and I mean it!"
“Anybody want a peanut?”
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
Hmmm, interesting
But, hey, why go to the Liquor store when you can drink Moonshine?
by GoldenNugget on Dec 2, 2009 10:24 PM MST up reply actions
moonishe is bad juju
I drink moonshine almost in a cycadian cycle. I drink moonshine once every 7 years. Then I swear off the stuff cause It almost kills me.. then i try it again 7 years later. I first tried it in 1996 in Ft Rucker AL. It was in a mason jar. Maybe it didnt help that i was dsrinking that and hefevizon at the same time. when i woke up the next day I swore i would never drink it again. And i didnt untill 2003 at Ft Drum NY. this time it was in a gallon milk jug. When I woke up the next day I swore i would never drink it again. Look out 2010. Lmao……
Go Nuggs
Wow
Interesting. I’ve said that many times before, but have always ended up drinking the next weeked or so, but then again, I’ve never had Moonshine.
oh its only moonshine
i still drink everything else.. no matter how drunk i have been on it. Well no, I have been off goldshlagger for about 17 years now.. smell of it makes me nasueas.. lol
Nope
Plain and simple, we’re trading a 54 win team now for a questionable future later and giving away essentially an entire year from Melo/JR/Nene.
Shaq is NOT the solution, albatross of a contract for Kenyon or not.
Swats.
Actually...
I would rather have Big Z, who appears to be on the outs in Cleveland. Not for K-Mart though. Is there another way we could package for Z?
Yes
If we’re gonna poach a center, get a productive healthy non-egotistical one. But Big Z I think is a Cav-4-life
bring in Shaq?
oh HELL no.
to quote the great Bill Walton, “Don’t you want to WIN?”
George, If you are reading this...
Please do not push for this idea. It looks great on paper (cyber space) but just look what happened to the Suns. Just think of all the stupid nicknames he’d give himself… Mt. Shaq – Elevation 5,287’… Shaq’s Peak… The Big Altitude… I can hear Marlow and Hastings having a field day with that!
This would destroy us.
Now, I am all for looking to see what is available but not him – not now…
Martin should not be lambasted for his agent doing what he was supposed to do. Kiki is at fault here. None the less, Martin brings us the toughness that we need. There is not another Nugget’s player with that kind of fury. Without that, we would be getting pushed around – not pushing people around.
Niestmieche!
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Dec 2, 2009 5:07 PM MST reply actions
never in a billion years
on the court- before cleveland got shaq the major problem they had last year is they could not defend the pick and roll. shaq cannot defend the pick and roll. kmart is the best big man in the nba in defending the pick and roll. he is one of the best ever to play the game at defending the pick and roll. cleveland would trade Z for kmart in a heart beat and that is a way better deal all around. economically it makes no sense. the diffrence between kmart and shaq’s salaries this season is 6 million. double that amount and you have 12 million. next season mcdeyss’ 3 million salary comes off the books. that will negate kmart’s salary increase next season. the money that will be saved from this season AND next season will be 2 million. do not get me started on why nene will never be a forward in the nba. you think the lane is clogged up in cleveland now just wait until shaq and nene are both playing in denver with their backs to the basket.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
I'm going to assume Andrew is using reverse psychology
on this one so that we realize how much we love K-Mart in spite of his atrocious contract. Keep in mind PHX had the best record in the league a couple years ago when they traded for Shaq. We all know how that ended.
Shaq is not good anymore. He sucks on pick and role defense and since a lot of teams run that, that would be quite problematic. He’s also not all that great on offense anymore, having lost a step. I don’t think the FO needs to be cutting cost, they need to be spending more. I hate to say it, but if you TRULY want to compete for a championship, you have to go over the cap. that’s just how it is. Sure it can backfire, i.e. not winning a championship, but it’s the reality of the situation.
If you’re looking for a fat ass to stick in the paint, bring in Jawai. but under no circumstances should we trade our best defender for someone who would instantly become our worst.
Let's not hate K-Mart because he's got an atrocious contract.
Let’s hate the man that gave it to him (Kiki). none of us would turn down that type of money just because we feel we wouldn’t be worth it.
No
I love the K-Mart and he is so important on D.
Question: why would Shaq clog up the lane, but there seem to be no such concerns with someone else, Gasol for example? BTW I think the Nuggets should probably still go for a proper centre.
NugNugz, I’d love Jawai to be in Denver. :P
Julian from Australia
i second that
jawai is huge… hed be a great 4th big… we really dont need a new center… all we need is a big body (7 ft+) to throw in for 10 minutes (and insurcane for injury)…. a guy like jawaii is perfect but i dnt think minny would trade him, unless mayb balkman and allen for jawaii and a scrub or a a second… idk
I always root for the fat guy in the NBA
But I’m not sure that’s really what we need. We need height, not width.
by GoldenNugget on Dec 2, 2009 10:32 PM MST up reply actions
Karl embracing you jinxed the Nuggets
…and your Shaq obsession has reverse-jinxed the Cavs. They’ve doubled up the Suns at half-time.
Please make a post about how the Nuggets have no chance at a title, and I’ll get on the horn with my bookie.
SHAQ FU = P.U.
I would say this trade proposal is a big NO. Look, the Nuggs have a legitimate chance to win a championship this year, and unload the Nuggs defensive MVP would be a disaster. Have you seen Shaq play this year?? Clunky old bag of bones, if you ask me.
Let’s go get a big man that can be added to the rotation without destroiyng the team. .Kmart is finally playing at a level worth his salary, IMO.
How about we trade Allen, Carter, or Balkman for Ben Wallace
Then watching the Lakers vs. the Nuggets would be hilarious bc Ron ron would try to fight Big Ben, Kobe would get involved, both get suspended 30 games and the Nugs get a red carpet to the finals. Plus Detroit loves to give up more than we give them in trades with us. I don’t see how it can’t work. Warkentein needs to give some more of that special Hennesey of his to Dumars (and no not the one Artest drinks at halftime) , just the same one he gave him during the Billups for Iverson deal.
Don’t believe me that Artest will start a fight with Wallace and doesn’t mind being suspended. Just read the article and enjoy.
http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/article/2009-12-02/sn-conversation-ron-artest-i-was-head-case
Yeah, just don't get tickets to that game
you wouldn’t want to be cought in the stands in that one.
by GoldenNugget on Dec 2, 2009 10:34 PM MST up reply actions
No doubt
In that article Ron says, I feel like fighting him all the time. That trade would all but ensure PHX and SA a trip to the WFC’s. All of the suspensions from the ensuing brawl(s) would keep Denver and LA from going anywhere.
Well, after reading that novel
It’s apparent people arn’t too hot on this one. Oh we, nice shot Andy. At least you got us thinking about the future, which is something we should be concerned with even though we are doing so well. Now, back to that Moonshine.
No way, Andrew.
We have to keep K-mart…
"Do not rest in defense. You can spend 24 seconds in offense on resting. If you do good enough on defense, you will be able to rest on offense."
Uh, No.
And part of the jam we will be in next year is related to the fact that rather than having a few young, upside players with reasonable contracts to play with, we have a bunch of bench players with little floor value or trade value. Having a coach that will not play rookies (exception so far to Ty Lawson) or go deeper than 8 players is a major contributing factor.
I’d rather see Jeff Foster for KMart for both the short term and long term.
Its not my money.....
and I think Stan has plenty of it. Personally if I had a choice of center to bring in it would be Gortar, not sure how all the numbers would work or who we would have to trade (on my phone right now)
by CCH on Dec 3, 2009 11:07 AM MST via mobile reply actions
So after this year Kmart only has next year with the huge contract.
I love this team and I can wait until after next year to have that contract freed up .
Plus I love Kmart. We saw what happened when he was out already this year.
by GottaLoveMelo on Dec 3, 2009 12:45 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I'm waiting on Andrew still...
…to be like “Haha, Just kidding guys. I wanted to test your loyalty the team and our expections for the year.”
Still waiting…..
by GottaLoveMelo on Dec 3, 2009 1:58 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Again...
Remember, I didn’t say “let’s do this deal!” and gave just as many (if not more) arguments against it than for it. I just threw it out there as something that I believe has to be considered. The Nuggets are facing a crippling financial situation next season, and it needs to be acknowledged at some point.
That said, clearly my fellow Stiffs don’t think it’s worth shedding ourselves of K-Mart’s contract if it comes at the cost of tanking this season with Shaq on board, and I can agree wholeheartedly with that.
Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com
by Andrew Feinstein on Dec 3, 2009 2:49 PM MST up reply actions
ok...
you didnt say that…haha, but thats pretty much how I took it.
by GottaLoveMelo on Dec 3, 2009 7:28 PM MST up reply actions
No way
That sounds awesome…..Why don’t you make Anthony Carter the point guard too. Maybe you could talk AI into coming back for the league min and come off the bench too.
A.I. signed w/ Philly ... we face him Monday night.
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
I'm happy for A.I. will definitely be interesting
Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!
Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Not only no, not ever, but HELL NO not ever
Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!
Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
what about this idea?
I live in alaska, i could wrangle up a polar bear, we could shave it a get it in a nuggets uniform…. talk about imtimdation factor in the paint. Andrew is it considered a flagerant 2 if we were able to do this, and our polar bear center ripped the head off of the opposing center? just curious. This would also keep that cute polar bear from drowning as his habitat is melting away.
Polar bears are left handed...
I spent summers in Alaska when I was a kid. It’s a little known theory, but the Inuits believe that Polar Bears are left handed. So much so that they train you to “roll” to YOUR left if a bear ever takes a swing.
I’d take a big man/bear that was a lefty…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
no
just look at what shaq has done to the Cavaliers. He is way past his prime.
by denvernuggets96 on Dec 13, 2009 1:15 PM MST reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
DENVER STIFFS T-SHIRTS!
Enter your email for updates
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
