"The shot" from an in-person perspective...
by Andrew Feinstein on Nov 11, 2009 8:58 AM MST
in News and Opinion
45 comments
Yours truly was at the Nuggets/Bulls game last night at the United Center and had no clue if that shot counted or not when it happened.
MILWAUKEE, WI - I might as well let the cat out of the bag. I've spent the past few days here in the midwest with none other than Nuggets head coach George Karl and his lawyer and longtime friend Bret Adams. Those of you who are new to the blog may not appreciate why this is significant whereas longtime readers will certainly understand why. This get-together has been in works since I met Karl and Adams during the NBA Summer League in Las Vegas, and after conducting a Monday interview with Coach Karl (which I'm still piecing together from my pile of notes), Karl and Adams were kind enough to invite me to last night's game and tonight's game in Milwaukee (preview coming shortly after I visit with my 97 year old grandmother who's a lifelong Bucks fan).
I've been to hundreds of Nuggets games, both home and road, but it's a completely different experience when you're sitting in the stands with the head coach's significant other and their friends, his lawyer (who once threatened to sue me and now we get along well) and the head of Karl's charitable foundation. As the Nuggets began to pull away in the fourth quarter, I was utterly convinced that the game was ours but the pesky Bulls - to their credit - just wouldn't go away. Of course, when the opposing team has Bernie Bickerstaff on its bench, you can never be that concerned.
When Chauncey Billups got to the free throw with 0.6 seconds remaining on the clock and made the first free throw, those of us in the "Karl contingency" in the stands immediately debated what to do next. Karl's significant other and Adams said you have to purposely miss the second free throw, figuring that the clock will run out as the players scramble to gather the rebound. I went the other way. I said you have to make both to preserve a two-point lead or you risk the opposing team having enough time to back door their way into a win with a crazy two-point shot (when you've bet on as many NBA games in Las Vegas as I have, you've seen enough of these scenarios to be legitimately concerned). Being up two with 0.6 to go, you figure worst case scenario is overtime, not a loss, unless the opposition makes a miracle three-pointer.
Anyway, the debate gathered fire among us as Chauncey purposely missed the second free throw and - voila! - the Bulls were able to secure the rebound AND call a timeout with just 0.3 seconds remaining. The back door loss was upon us. (Since I just took a shot at Bernie, credit goes to the Bulls coaching staff for hammering into their players to call that timeout immediately...it probably helped that hometown time keeper started the clock a tad late on the free throw miss, too.)
Unconcerned by the Bulls ability to possibly make such a miraculous shot, the "Karl contingency" was fairly calm. And we all know what happened next. Brad Miller made the shot of his life (horribly defended by the way, not sure why Karl didn't put a man on Miller considering Miller made some huge long-range shots in the playoffs last season) and our collective hearts sunk as the United Center erupted. Having gotten to know Karl and those close to him these past few days, you begin to realize how much more is on the line for these people than the casual fan. Imagine being around Karl that night if the Nuggets lose that game? And it doesn't help that Karl is hoping for a contract extension, adding additional pressure to an already pressure-filled job.
So as the referees reviewed the shot over and over and over and over...and over and over and over and over...and the fans got more and more antsy until Joakim Noah started celebrating like "they advanced to the Sweet 16", as Chauncey put it, we were just frozen. Staring. Waiting. Wondering.
And then, finally, 15 or so agonizing minutes later, the call came in. Nuggets win! NUGGETS WIN!!!! Adams and I embraced and both let out a huge sigh of relief. "It's going to be a lot more fun to talk to George tonight," he said and we headed out.
On a side note, Nate and I have noticed some personally negative attacks on Karl and some players in the comments lately. We hate to play school principal here, but please refrain from personal attacks on coaches and players. You can vehemently criticize (and we encourage you to) anything they do on the floor or even off the floor that affect on-the-floor performance. But personal jabs about people's weight and sexual preference will be deleted and you could even get banned. We sincerely appreciate your enthusiasm for the blog and don't want to discourage you from participating in the conversation, but Nate and I are liable for what is said on this blog, even by you!
Photo courtesy of NBAE/Getty Photos: Gary Dineen
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We're lucky
To have your perspective on this one. Awesome.
Now, hopefully doing boneheaded things like leaving a good shooter open for the winning shot now will mean that we don’t leave a good shooter open in games that really count later.
Also, do coaches always travel with lawyers? What trouble is Karl planning on getting into???
On policing the comments...
I think it is a good thing. I’m down on some of Karl’s coaching methods and Anthony Carter’s play as much as anybody. But both are good people and it is disgusting the way people use the anonymity of the Internet to spew vile things about some people.
I read and post on these blogs because I follow the Nuggets and enjoy basketball. I don’t need the BS name-calling.
Cheers, Andrew and Nate.
by Fly Agaric on Nov 11, 2009 9:39 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
+++
I have avioded the blog for the past couple of days bcs it has become so hateful . .
Thank you!
I also would really appreciate it if we can keep the personal attacks off of the blog comments. I eat, sleep, drink and live Nuggets 24/7, so, of course, I enjoy reading this blog on a daily basis. Keep up the great work!
I’m fairly new to this blog and I was afraid it was always like that around here!
Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.
by UZ on Nov 11, 2009 6:03 PM MST up reply actions
The only thing that should be fair game...
should be the intelligence displays of the coaches and ownership and the intelligence and physical capabilities of the players when discussing our thoughts here really. We can talk about how a bonehead play was called, or a bonehead front office move was made, or how terrible Anthony Carter’s J looks, but beyond that, there’s nothing really to discuss.
Andy/Nate, you guys have to remember that there are probably a bunch of teenagers on here too, and I’d be willing to bet that’s where a majority of these misguided statements and assertions come from. That doesn’t make it right whatsoever though and by all means, I encourage you to filter out the trash as much as you deem necessary. If Johnny Sixteen-Year-Old thinks he can come in here and be vulgar, then perhaps its best he does get banned so that he can see that it’s not a free for all and might grow up a little because of it. It helps us all who want to talk basketball and not read thru irrelevant attacks on people. I don’t have enough time lately to read much or post so I certainly don’t need to try to decipher what’s hoops talk and what’s US Weekly garbage.
by stiffy on Nov 11, 2009 9:48 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
It's all about quality conversation.
It’s definitely understandable to get frustrated during games and to post totally random stuff on game threads, but we want to hold this blog to a higher standard than comment sections you’ll come across on say ESPN, local or national papers and other talk forums.
We have a lot of great Nuggets fans on here and I like all the perspectives and increased activity since our merger. Let’s all just remember to hold ourselves to a bit of a higher standard.
-Nate
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
What is this blog's policy on vulgarity and/or libel?
Seriously. I am 100% on board in terms of the personal attacks and those things that are potentially libelous. They are out of place. Kind of…
The day (actually, just a few minutes after) excerpts from Tim Donaghy’s book came out, I posted the link and some opinions. I considered it very timely and very important to Nuggets Nation and all fans of the NBA. There were only a couple responses and nothing from Nate or Andrew. Do you guys steer clear because of the potential for libel or do you really believe that Donaghy’s book is a non-issue? Honestly, with as much as this blog has focused on AC and the fact that he isn’t great (duh) or that Marc Gasol would be a nice addition to the Nuggets roster (duh) how is it that fairly pertinent information (speculative or otherwise) about our beloved NBA and its officials gets ignored? Is it because I used the “F” word? Truly, I am not too worried about people responding to my posts but since we are policing content, I figured I’d ask…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Nov 11, 2009 10:40 AM MST up reply actions
User agreement that everyone accepts when they come to the blog.
When you join Denver Stiffs you have to accept the user agreement in order to join the conversation. Here is our user agreement:
DenverStiffs.com is an independent website dedicated to the Denver Nuggets. Nuggets fans as well as fans of other teams are welcome here. Good-natured smack talk is acceptable.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated by any member. Have an opinion, state your case, disagree and debate, but be respectful of yourself and other members.
FanShots and FanPosts allow you to create your story! Utilize them to make your points. This is your Nuggets community.
* Any FanPost or FanShot with vulgarity in the title will BE DELETED.
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These rules go for everyone.
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
by Nate Timmons on Nov 11, 2009 10:54 AM MST up reply actions
I don't really remember seeing that
Those don’t seem hard to follow, though.
"I always believe there's a reason why you go through everything." -John Elway
The Tim Donaghy post was totally fine and very relavant.
I didn’t happen to comment on it because I haven’t read the whole book and I’m not sure I’m ready to believe the accounts of a convicted gambler. I guess I could have posted that, but just didn’t touch on it.
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
by Nate Timmons on Nov 11, 2009 10:55 AM MST up reply actions
Gotta ask yourself
What does Donaghy stand to gain by lying and potentially going BACK to prison for libel or some infraction stemming from lies in his book? He would have gotten a book deal NO MATTER WHAT he had to say. I don’t know about you, but I figured he’d write a book about his addiction and how sports gambling ruins lives. I thought it would be full of contrition and a virtual suck up to the league…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Nov 11, 2009 11:48 AM MST up reply actions
But he comes out and says what is really happening
I believe this issue has been covered up by the league big time. I think it still goes on in the game and the evidence is pretty damn clear. Officiating is by far the worst in the NBA. If you look at all sports, there will always be issues with officiating but nothing comes close to the NBA.
Makes you wonder where it starts and where it stops. Is it orchestrated by the league? Or is it just a few officials that bet on games with their chronies and make a lot of money off of it?
Donaghy probably has nothing to lose, but then again why go down as a one man show when you can try to drag the whole league down.
That’s just kind of devil’s advocate talk.
I admit that things that have happened in the past seem very fishy at times … (the Kings vs. Lakers game, the Phoenix suspensions of Amar’e and Diaw, I know I’m forgetting some…)
It’s also very hard to believe that players, coaches, and owners wouldn’t catch wind of this stuff and raise hell about it. Even after guys retire you don’t hear talk about a fixed league. You’d think somebody would come out and say something … maybe Donaghy is the first voice and will lead to more … I don’t know.
You are right though – very disturbing stuff and some very odd endings at times the past decade or so. I’d hate to think that the sport I’m probably most passionate about it rigged though. Very interesting stuff.
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
by Nate Timmons on Nov 11, 2009 2:29 PM MST up reply actions
Nothing to lose?
That’s exactly my point: Donaghy has EVERYTHING to lose by writing lies in a tell-all book about activity that he just served time in Federal prison for. Unless he was certain that what he was writing was the truth or something damn close, I don’t see him taking a chance that somebody would go after him the way Roger Clemmons threatened to when he got fingered in the steroid mess…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Nov 11, 2009 3:26 PM MST up reply actions
Look at Conseco...
I’m surprised more people never scratched their heads about why Conseco didn’t get pinched for libel with his book. The reason: it was all true and could be corroberated by witnesses. Just watch: the same thing will happen with this book including some sort of congressional inquiry…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Nov 11, 2009 3:29 PM MST up reply actions
I'm done after this. Sorry.
I am absolutely more passionate about the NBA than any other sport or league which is why I think it is imperitive that the NBA’s GREAT fanbase insist that the league cleans itself up. We need to tell David Stern that we could care less about what the players wear before or after their games but that he needs to police the fairness of calls, schedules, travel options and all of the other things that might bring better parity to the league.
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Nov 11, 2009 3:34 PM MST up reply actions
100% with you Big Mickey D
I’ve been saying the same thing for the last three years or so
Transparency
I won’t opine on whether the league is fixed or not, as I waffle to either side of the argument depending on the day of the week. With that said, Stern and co. are doing a disservice to the league and it’s fans when they are unwilling to shed ANY light on accusations of meddling in the outcome of plays/games/series. Their brick wall stance on this only serves to raise suspicion, not expunge it. Case in point: this is the only sports league where it’s common place to casually suggest that the league pulls strings. I’m not sure how they combat this given the dynamic nature of the game, but perhaps if the league introduced someone quasi-indendent to audit/address reasonable accusations. When pure entertainment value trumps preservation of the sport from which said entertainment is derived by us, the fans, the NBA will hurt.
by Artimus Mangilord on Nov 11, 2009 4:21 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Great stuff here Artimus ... Big Mickey D as well, great stuff.
Might have to open this all up for more debate.
Denver Stiffs.com: Defending the sovereignty of Nuggets Nation.
by Nate Timmons on Nov 11, 2009 4:28 PM MST up reply actions
On Donaghy and language...
Hi Big Mickey D -
No excuse for me not to serve up commentary on the Donaghy issue. I can’t speak for Nate, but for me it was a combination of a really busy work week combined with having already served up my conspiracy theory on the Nuggets getting screwed with the scheduling AND I had already cracked NBA officiating in length when I argued that replacement refs would be a good thing. In other words, I felt like I had done enough “conspiracy writing” for one week. But what makes SBN GREAT is that you guys can bring these issues up, write your own articles, etc. Again, NO excuses, though, and I should have addressed it especially since Donaghy mentions specific Nuggets games.
On language, use any bad word you want – just not in the title per Nate’s comments below. I love using words like “fuck” and “shit” to make specific points, so I have no issue with bad language whatsoever as long as its not a personal attack on someone.
Thanks for following the blog!
All best,
Andrew
Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com
by Andrew Feinstein on Nov 11, 2009 11:00 AM MST up reply actions
Thanks!
Appreciate the thoughtful answers…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Nov 11, 2009 11:35 AM MST up reply actions
P.S.
Your commentary on the disparity between the Nuggets’ schedule and the Lakers is why I joined this blog. I don’t think it’s that ridiculous to think that blogs like this could help shine a light on a league and a commisioner who think it is okay to stack the deck if doing so means better ratings and more money…
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Nov 11, 2009 11:51 AM MST up reply actions
If the Nuggets beat the Lakers on November 13
People might start turning heads to us. Many of the sports websites that I visit say stuff like “Nuggets avoid loss” when the Nuggets win. It’s really annoying…
"I always believe there's a reason why you go through everything." -John Elway
Great Opportunity
to meet with that group. I don’t know if I could have watched a game with them. Out of respect, I would have to restrain my comments, but on the inside I would have spent the game screaming “Call a timeout” and “Take AC out of the game, what are you doing?” and “Do something besides sit there with a sour look on your face”. Were you frustrated?
GK will win COY if he limits AC's minutes to pure garbage time
Hopefully with a title.
"I always believe there's a reason why you go through everything." -John Elway
Andrew...
You are getting too sweet on GK. Personally, I love the guy, but we need someone out there who is knowledgeable who is ready to be unreasonable with him. And I think…
you’re the man for the job…
+1
Andrew, I think it’s great you have actually come as close to George as you have, I really do. Not may people get the opportunity that has come before you. But if you are going to go down that road I really hope you remember that one of the key foundations of journalism is to confront those who you interview about things they don’t necessarily want to talk about. That means asking George right to his face why we don’t see any plays being run, why AC continues to get the minutes he does when he is clearly out of his element on the floor, why Melo continues to go one on one every time he gets the ball, why we still don’t have any inbounds plays, why JR (excuse me, Earl) and Balkman are always in the doghouse, why he continued to coach when he admitted he didn’t care about coaching any more, why we still see the nonsensical 3 pg lineup, etc, etc, etc. I guess today is Wednesday so the interview has already taken place. But I hope you got a little candid during the interview, and if for some reason you didn’t I hope you do in the future if you ever have another interview with Karl. Like spokenwar said, you are the man for the job. You are our voice.
As for the game last night…
I thought it was a hard fought game and I’m glad we won. I still am losing hair every time I watch Melo get the ball, but as long as we win I don’t have too much to complain about I guess.
I knew the Miller shot wasn’t good the moment he let it go. There is no way you can get that shot off in .3 seconds. It’s just not possible. But I was having a good laugh at the whole scenario. Any time you see Brad Miller make what he thinks is a game winner off one of the goofiest shots I have ever seen, then watch him hold up a gooseneck and let it linger for a couple seconds after the buzzer, it’s something memorable. Top it all off with a handlebar mustache and you’ve got one hell of a moment.
by GoldenNugget on Nov 11, 2009 1:09 PM MST up reply actions
-1 (now you're break even)
Minus one for the whole idea of “ready to be unreasonable”. Makes no sense to me sorry. And once you get going on the unreasonable path, the hand that feeds you will cut you off.
I think your intent with your post is to hope that Andy holds him accountable which is what we all hope and any great journalist will be successful at while maintaining the relationship, but let’s not gut Andy if the 1st interview here comes out and it’s NOT a Geraldo Rivera expose. The ability to address concerns is something that needs to grow in the trust that the interviewee (Karl) has in the process. I think if you come out swinging, it’ll be a short lived connection and thus think in the big picture (I was gonna say strategically, not tactically but I never remember which one is the larger of the two, lol). Think about it fellas…. Like the one and only Herm Edwards said “YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!!” :)
by stiffy on Nov 11, 2009 3:56 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
huh?
I don’t really understand what you are trying to say. All I was saying is I just hoped that Andy asked him questions all of us have been dying to find the answers to for a long time. Asking honest, legit questions isn’t being unreasonable.
by GoldenNugget on Nov 12, 2009 3:53 PM MST up reply actions
Relationships
I think, and you know, that it is a slippery slope, indeed, when you cultivate a personal relationship with the management of the very team you are covering. I have always admired your blog and you are clearly a talented writer. That said, however, your access to the Nuggets now depends on what you write about them, or what you tolerate being written about them. If the Denver Stiffs Blog strays from the party line you can pretty well bet that your days as a Nuggets’ Insider are going to be limited. You will need to make a choice, I fear, between the two positions. If you choose the personal relationship route your readership is bound to suffer, the Blog may be endangered and that would be a true loss to your fans.
In the case of George Karl, this is a particularly difficult situation because he remains a terribly flawed coach. To get into all of that now would take too much time but there are legitimate reasons why the Nuggets offered him such pitiful extension terms this summer. The Nuggets’ management will dump him in a heart beat if he doesn’t improve his performance dramatically.
I know how cool it is to hang out in the lofty circles of NBA players and coaches. It will be a difficult choice.
Tom
Yep
Sorry, but censorship is lame. You’re not going to get sued for allowing fans to banter and voice their opinion without restraint. I’m being honest here, running around like a teacher’s pet trying to wash everyone’s mouth out with soap is just going to distance some of the most outspoken fans.
It’s a blog dude, if you are trying to legitimize it into a business selling shitty shirts or turn this into some PC news source that’s bullshit. This should be a place for a fans. Lighten up man, a lot of times we are joking around or just super frustrated. It’s a NUGGETS FAN SITE, we’re all Nuggets fans!!!!
Look, the Jabba the Karl image should not have been removed, it was funny as hell and just a joke. Nate, please let me post a fanshot of that without censorship! Remember we all love the Nuggets. A warning would have been enough. Everyone needs to just chill out about it, readers and writers alike
by runningdonut on Nov 11, 2009 2:35 PM MST up reply actions
It goes both ways
Jason LaConfora used to cover the Redskins for the Washington Post. At one point, after being lied to by the team about a potential trade, he called them liars on his blog, then was made to apoligize by his boss. He was so critical of the owner and the front office that they refused to talk to him at all. So he was essentially out of the loop on a lot of things.
Andrew shouldn’t provide good coverage to maintain his access, but if he loses access by being overly critical, that will hurt his coverage as well.
outside looking in
everything is different from the inside. historically with the nuggets there is a place for disagreement. hanzlik was fired as coach and works as a commentator. issle QUIT as the coach and was rehired as coach and gm. where censorship is concerned unless people on this blog want to use actual names AND pictures next to their statements it is not a level playing field. using an anonymous identity and taking a cheap shot is one thing. andrew and nate are the ones using their names AND having the opportunity to stand toe to toe with the subjects of another person’s statements. you cannot have it both ways. hiding your true identity is censorship too.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
-1 to runningdonut +1 to nohoops4u
dounut, you’re usually pretty funny and good with your thoughts but I disagree here with you. Anyone can create a fan site, and those that do create sites have the right to maturate their site and positions over time. You can feel free to go start a site yourself that only deals with the silly, ridiculous, or whatever you want to focus on. These guys have a right to run it how they see fit and to make decisions that they feel help grow their legitimacy and the experience for their users (i.e. working long and hard at getting inside the Karl loop to get more for us than any other Nuggets or hell, probably any other NBA teams fan blogs have been able to secure).
I wouldn’t want to step to George Karl and say “Hey I’d love if you could do an interview for my site… you know… the one that depicts you as a fat slob and people call you names all the time on”. Would you? Sorry but getting fed straight from the source is always going to be more intriguing to me than how good you can photoshop up a picture of someone or thing. That said, I hope you can understand because from what I can tell from your knowledge of the sport and the team, you’re best to remain a member here rather than stand on a soapbox over this issue too hard and wind up leaving or something.
View from a Chicago Fan: VDN told the refs before Chauncey's second shot...
…that if the Bulls got a clean rebound they wanted an immediate timeout. The Bulls players, really didn’t even have to call one at all. I read that in all the flurry of news coverage I took in last night.
From my side, this is definitely the game of the week, if not the month, so far. Two philosophically different franchises but in the end, rather evenly matched teams. (I couldn’t believe my Bulls held your Nuggets to 90) Both are strong but flawed teams (offense vs defense, and vice versa), and lets not forget you guys got the benefit of Earl when we dropped him for nothing.
Oh and for Chauncey’s comments: Unlike some of my fellow bulls fans, that didn’t come off as cocky at all. Basically he said he knew that Brad made a good shot (which I thought was respectful) , but was laughing because the bulls were running around like little kids for a regular season game, combined with the nerves/anxiety of waiting for the ref’s call.
Anyhow, good games. Tell GK congrats for eighth and what a way to do it.
"your Nuggets"
Why am I finding that funny…?
"I always believe there's a reason why you go through everything." -John Elway
The Bulls players really actually did have to call the time-out...
The rule is that a time-out can only be called by the team in possession of the ball and therefore could never be called prior to the team gaining possession. It would be like GK telling the official that he wanted a time-out IF we stole the ball or IF the ball gets turned over somehow… The refs gave the Bulls a gift by putting .3 seconds on the clock. No question. A fucking gift.
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Big Mickey D on Nov 11, 2009 3:19 PM MST up reply actions
+1 to Mickey
That’s true. But it happens all the time where coaches (even in the NFL) say “as soon as such and such happens we’re calling time out” and the refs basically stare at the coach while the play unfolds so they can call it with as much time as possible left. That said, I don’t think they should have gotten the .3 seconds off .6 seconds of time remaining. The clock starts once the ball carom’s off the rim I think. It took more than .3 seconds for the ball to get secured by a Bulls player… no effin way they should have even had that last shot attempt IMO.
Yes, yes, yes!
There is nooooo way in 0.6 seconds…you can have enough time to grab a rebound and call time out….and THEN catch and shoot. There is no damn way!
by GottaLoveMelo on Nov 11, 2009 4:30 PM MST up reply actions
Nice post
And agree that comments should be civil, but as a matter of federal law, you are not liable for our comments.
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