Could 2009-10 be like 1985-86?...
by Andrew Feinstein on Oct 8, 2009 1:12 PM MDT
in Denver Nuggets: News and Opinion
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With a new Nuggets season just weeks away, Denver Stiffs is wondering if 2009-10 is going to turn out like 1985-86.
By Nuggets franchise standards, the 1985-86 season was a success. The Nuggets won 47 games (third best in the Western Conference, although it should be noted that three Western playoff participants were sub-.500 that season), a playoff series and took the Western Conference champion Houston Rockets to six games in the second round, culminating with a heartbreaking 126-122 double overtime Rockets victory at McNichols Arena. But looking at 1985-86 from a broader view, it was a bit of let down as the Nuggets had come off an NBA franchise-best 52 win season and a Western Conference Finals appearance against the Lakers the year before.
Never one to be a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, I'm concerned that 2009-10 is already feeling like that 1985-86 campaign. Consider the comparisons...
...after surprising the NBA with a 52-win season in 1984-85, the Nuggets surprised no one in 1985-86. Just as they'll surprise no one this year.
...the Nuggets division rival in 1985-86, a young Houston team led by talented twin towers Hakeen Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson, was coming off its first playoff appearance in several years and was able to overtake the Nuggets by season's end. Despite this blog's readers consistently - and I think, foolishly - writing off the Nuggets current division rival; a young Portland Trail Blazers team featuring its own pair of talented twin towers in LaMarcus Aldridge and Greg Oden (certainly not to be confused with the greatness of Olajuwon and Sampson, when healthy), I wouldn't be shocked if the Blazers overtook the Nuggets in April.
...rather than build off their success in 1984-85 by adding an impact player to help knock off the Lakers, the Nuggets returned virtually the same roster from the season before, sans Dan Issel who retired. The 2009-10 Nuggets are also returning virtually the same roster, essentially swapping Dahntay Jones for Arron Afflalo (which will be an upgrade) while losing Linas Kleiza.
...like their 1985-86 predecessors, the 2009-10 Nuggets are led by an All-Star caliber small forward and point guard combined with gritty upfront players and solid depth. Unfortunately, also like their predecessors they don't have an All-Star caliber center (and no, Nene's 14.6 ppg and 7.8 rpg are not All-Star numbers, regardless of what you've been reading) and their primary competition, in this season's case the Lakers, Blazers and Spurs, are some of the taller teams in the NBA. Lest we forget that the 2008-09 Nuggets didn't have any problems in the postseason until they went up against a team with length.
...looking to distance themselves even further from their Western Conference competition, the Lakers added a mercurial, tough veteran in Maurice Lucas for the 1985-86 campaign - similar to them adding the mercurial, tough Ron Artest this summer. Of course, Lucas never punched a fan in the stands.
Throw in an exhausting trip to China, a Western Conference high 22 back-to-back games, and a much improved San Antonio Spurs, and I'm getting that feeling that 2009-10 is going to end up a lot more like 1985-86 than 2008-09.
Let's hope I'm proven wrong...
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back to the future
the difference between now and then is the 1980’s version was at it’s zenith. the nugs2k10 still has room for improvement within and can still bring in players to improve. kmart, birdman and andersen have the same problem. they cannot shoot from 15 feet. the defense slacks off and clogs the passing lanes. this really messes up spacing with the offense. melo and nene have the same problem on defense they do not block out. you cannot fast break without rebounding. giving the other team 2 and 3 chances on the same trip down the court will kill you every time. they need to work smarter not harder on d. executing the offense also kills them. nugs are just scratching the surface. they beat the hornets by 58 points in the PLAYOFFS. do not forget when they blew out the raptors by 40 points and their head coach was fired after the game. billups was with them for about a month. free throw- nba players are world class athletes and millionaires. they have a hall of fame coach adrian dantley to show them how. gerald wallace was a 50% free throw shooter with sacramento. he went to the bobcats and now shoots 80%. coach jeff capel now is giving lessons to flip murray. karl malone started in the nba shooting 50%. he improved to 80%. after training camp the rosters get down to 15 players max. rob kurz could still wind up in denver. nugs have a 10 million and 3.5 million trade exceptions. orlando cannot trade gortat until the season starts. his 5.7 million salary will cost the magic over 11 million with the tax. there may be a multi team multi player trade. portland’s big problem is the point guard position. no way you can compare kenny smith with blake and miller. when the blazer’s are overpaying for nuggets castoffs it ain’t deja vu all over again.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
kenny smith
was not in the nba at that time. EVEN NOW OR AT NORTH CAROLINA HE IS STILL BETTER THAN blake or miller. ooooops- my bad.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
Birdman and Andersen?
did i miss a bifurcation along the way?
Also, I think you’re putting way too much faith in Rob Kurz. He can barely get on a team right now and you’re expecting him to be a difference maker? I agree with you, the Nuggets need a big who can stretch the floor, but I prefer that the big at least be a rotation player. If the Nuggets want to contend, there’s going to be a point where they’ll have to add a PROVEN player, not someone who is a fringe player. They were lucky with Birdman (and Andersen as well). they were lucky with Dahntay Jones but those guys didn’t put them over the top either (though we all know they should’ve beat the lakers)
meant balkman, andersen and kmart
kurz would be cheap and available. i would have prefered signing novak as a free agent in july. i really would have liked kleiza to have signed the contract he was offered a year ago. a forward to stretch the defense so the bigs with limited range have some room to operate.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
Denver and Portland...
These guys are coming to life. Oden killed during Summer and now in preseason, he’s playing like a former #1 pick. Last night he had 18, 9, and 1 in only 25 minutes. Right now, at the half, he has 11 points, 7 rebounds and 1 assist in only 10 minutes. He’s hitting everything…well he did miss one shot. But he’s looking like a star.
Of course, this year Denver will have the entire year with Billups, and they were just about as good as anyone with him last year.
It’s going to be fun with Denver and Portland this year. Two very good teams with a lot to prove.
http://myteamrivals.typepad.com/trailblazers (Portland site)
http://myteamrivals.typepad.com/nuggets (Denver site)
Not what I like to hear
I feel that a large amount of the Nuggets chances of taking the division rest on Oden’s healh, and game when healthy. If he is playing like that all season, of even better, we are in trouble.
by GoldenNugget on Oct 7, 2009 11:32 PM MDT up reply actions
sac back to back
oden played against sacramento twice in a row. 1st time he went 4 for 7 from the field with 4 turnovers. 2nd time the kings starting center spencer hawes did not play because of a sprained ankle. kings won 17 games last year. denver is in big trouble now.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
One thing to add
Consistency is what the Nuggets struggled with for 5 years and turned it around quickly when Chauncey came on board. For that reason I think they have at least a little more room to organically get better with what they have. That being said it is hard to argue against how much better prepared the Spurs, Lakers, and Blazers are prepared to deal with a long season and injuries. The Nuggets may have to overachieve to get a top seed in the West but I believe they will be dangerous in the postseason if focused and healthy enough to get back there. There is also some flexibility left to add a piece although it seems pretty unlikely right now.
We need a game thread for tomorrow
Who’s waking up at 530 in the morning to watch a meaningless pre-season game on NBATV?
I planned most of the day around it. I may have to forgo a night of sleep. Nate or Andrew need to bust out a game thread. Set your alarms people
Will do...
Runningdonut…
I’ll get up a game thread. Unfortunately I’ll be asleep recovering from the flu!
Andrew Feinstein | DenverStiffs.com | denverstiffs@gmail.com
by Andrew Feinstein on Oct 7, 2009 9:46 PM MDT up reply actions
scary thought
games denver starters played- nene=77, melo=66, kmart=66, billups=77 and jones=79. the starting line up played together in half the games. nugs started the year as a fast break team, had a major trade after the start of the regular season then changed course to a mostly half court offense. under those conditions they won 54 games and went to the western conference finals. denver will only improve the longer they play together.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
true...
…keep forgetting Melo missed 16 games and played with that elbow thing for some of the 66 that he played.
by GottaLoveMelo on Oct 8, 2009 8:22 AM MDT up reply actions
Look on the bright side
Even if we lose in the second round, it will STILL be a success imo. I understand it won’t satisfy a lot of this franchises’ fans but at some point you have to realize, we are Nuggets fans.
Portland? Not again?
Cmon….until they prove something, they are nuttin. Everyone likes seeing a new team surprise each in year in any sport, and this team appears to be it. Just remember, without team chemistry, talent is halted very quickly. Although me to refer to the Olajuwon, Drexler, Barkley trifecta as I most often do. Roy is sic, Aldridge is sic, Miller is steady , Oden is bustville til proven otherwise in the season, Blake is overrated.
Talentwise: Billups>Miller, Kenyon>Aldridge, Nene>Oden, Melo>Bantum or Fernandez, BUT Roy over JR. So thats 4 positions which are better in Nuggetsville.
We have chemistry, Portland does not. Chemistry is why we can beat the Spurs. Chemistry is why we can beat San Antonio. Chemistry is why we can beat, yes, beat, Lakers in the Finals.
Have a little faith man, and enjoy watching Melo and Nene grow into machines.
This is a tad comical on the PDX comments...
They proved that with the 2nd youngest roster in the league they could finish with the exact same record as the Nuggets last year, added Andre Miller to their weakest starting position, and will have the greatest organic growth in the league this year because their players are actually improving…
And if you want to go emphasize proven, what have the Nuggets, or any team in the league for that matter, proven for the 2009-2010 season? “Nuttin”
If you want to go on “expectations” though, how about this, and I’m erring on the side of conservative approach, because I don’t think there are ten teams in the league that wouldn’t trade Melo for B-Roy, but lets say…
Roy = Melo, Oden = Nene, Chauncey>Miller, Batum>JR, LMA>K-Mart
…I’ll admit the Batum pick might seem like a reach, but not many who watch him, and it also balances the fact I actually said Roy simply equals Melo… in other matters…
Nene averaged 33 minutes last year, 14.6 points, 8 rebounds…
Oden averaged 22 minutes last year, 8.9 points, 7 rebounds…as a rook, com’n off MF surgery!
Dude, pay attention to the “now,” and realize people are raving about how much Oden has improved this offseason (check out the preseason observers)…to not think that Oden is going to at least equal Nene this year, is analagous to think that Lebron as a HS student wasn’t necessarily going to be a good NBA player because he hadn’t *"proved"8 himself yet.
K-Mart averaged last year…32 minutes…12 points…6 rebounds…and he’ll be 32 in December
LMA averaged ….last year….37 minutes…18 points…8 rebounds…and he’ll be 25 in July
Additionally, you have chemistry? And the Blazers have so little? So much more chemistry that you tied the 2nd youngest team in the league last year to the exact same record? Also, I just see that JR Smith is suspended for the 1st 7 games of the season, and Denver is happy because Melo hasn’t appeared in any “anti-snitching” videos this offseason?
Look, I’ll go so far as to say these two teams are “neck & neck,” an injury to K-Mart or Oden changes the whole equation…but when you see both of those teams had the same record last year…
But the Blazers added Miller in the offseason, Oden has dramatically improved from MF surgery, and the organic growth of the Blazers youth will be greater than the Nuggets…*I don’t know how any b-ball fan can not reasonably feel it looks to be the Blazers division this year…
by irish3 on Oct 8, 2009 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Look at your comparisons dude
Roy = Melo LOL
Oden = Nene LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Batum>JR Funniest one of the bunch
LMA>Kmart LOL
Where the Blazers have the advantage is their bench. The Nuggets have one of the sickest starting 5 in the game. You compare stats and leave it at that. That is not what this game is about in case you have missed the memo. Maybe when you have a young team that suprised last year you get stuck on what good numbers players put up. When you aren’t expecting shit from guys like Aldridge and Oden and they produce good numbers you get excited. Then Roy has a career year and you spout off about how it is a stretch to say he is only equal to Melo. Melo is one of the most talented players in this game and I’m sure he’ll break your heart more than once this season.
You Should Have Taken An Aspirin...
…before you went to bed. The hangover’s going to hurt.
You really don’t think those comparisons are fair? Last year melo and roy were a stat wash. Same points. Roy averaged two more assists, Carmelo averaged two more rebounds. They are about as equal as you can get.
Oden and Nene will be a wait and see. But if you think Oden will average less than Nene’s 14.6 and 7.8 last year, you’re completely lost in another world. Especially since Oden averaged 9 and 7 last year in about eleven fewer minutes. Which basically made them pretty even last year, when Oden was having a crappy, clumsy year.
JR Smith probably beats out his comparison, but then again, we know what to expect from Smith, and don’t know what to expect from Batum/Webster.
and your idea of Kmart being better than LA is simply delusional. Even in Kmart’s best, all star years, his numbers have never, ever been as good as Aldridge’s SOPHOMORE YEAR in the NBA, and the guy’s getting on in years. Aldridge improved slightly in his third year, barring injury, no one expects him to droop in his fourth year. Miller and Billups, I give the edge to Billups because he’s back home and whatnot. Numbers-wise, he’s got about one point and one assist on Miller per career. It’s not much of an edge, but his defense wins out on that one.
Of course, fans of teams aren’t subjective, they will always believe their team is tops like Christians love Christ. But seriously, guy, wake up and think it over. Even if you add in the “memo” you seem to speak so highly of, those intangibles like toughness and spirit and leadership and whatever, I think both teams have the potential for heartbreak.
I just want to make sure you’re prepared as well, Gasus.
For now I’m looking forward to the preseason game on the 18th to get a little preview.
One thing is for sure, It’s going to be a good year for the Northwest Division. Hard fought games=good times.
Stats again clown?
Just keep saying the same thing comparing stats over and over and maybe Roy will turn into a winner like Melo has been at every level. Then maybe Miller will become Chauncey and get his teams to 7 straight conference titles. Then maybe you will see Aldridge turn into the perrenial playoff contender Kmart has been. LOL
Melo’s been a winner at every level? How many playoff series has he won in his six year career?
Roy is clearly better statistically, a fact that is obscured by the Blazers’ slow pace. Melo has a 19 PER and Roy 24… He’s a more efficient scorer and better passer. Not that PER is great, but a five point gap is huge.
Miller was about as good as Chauncey last year. Let’s not forget that the Blazers won 54 games without him and the Nuggets won 54 games with their veteran point guard… stands to reason that the Blazers may improve as the Nuggets did?
Kmart is a perennial playoff contender if contender means great first round exits. Aldridge is superior statistically and much younger with room to develop.
Oh, and Billups hasn’t actually been that good in the playoffs throughout his career.
"If the Lakers are Hollywood, then we are South Central." - Clipper fan.
What a hack
What does NBA Finals MVP stand for? You guys are absolutely rediculous. I agree that the Nuggets don’t look like the best team in the league heading into this season but I definitely don’t have any worries about the Blazers. Yeah, they can get up and down the floor with good pace but they don’t have any experience on that team. The Nuggets would hand them their ass so bad in the playoffs you would cry and quit your fandom. LOL. You ever hear anything about defense winning championships? The Nuggets are stacked defensively with Billups and his amazing strength and knowledge of team defense, JR with his high energy gets into passing lanes and disrupts offenses all night, Melo in big games with a backup of Balkman who hustles so well you will be very shocked when he clamps down on the small forwards around the league this year, Kmart with his excessively physical play and the quickest hands in the game, and Bird off the bench who led the league in blocked shots per minute played last year.
What does Porland have defesively? A broken down center who is for all intesive purposes a ROOKIE in the league? Who else plays defense on that team? Miller sure is about as bad as it gets as we have seen that hear in Denver and it is all you hear about when anybody talks about him. Does Roy play defense? No. Does Fernandez play defense? Hell no. Does Alldridge play defense? All I hear about the guy is he falls asleep during periods of games and his guy dunks over his teamates.
Good luck Blazer fans but your team cannot play defense and we in Denver know how well that works out in the playoffs.
Miller isn't the winner Chauncey is buddy
You’ll grow to hate the fact that he has a shooters mentality and hates to play defense. There are no holes in Chauncey’s game and he is a mentor to the whole team. He’s not just a veteran point guard, he’s the best leader in the game today. You can’t stat Billups and compare his 7 conference finals appearances to Miller. You are so far off in this dream that normally I would just ignore it. However, I know the feeling of thinking Billups isn’t really that good. Last year when he was brought into Denver I couldn’t understand the reasoning behind it. I thought Chauncey was just a guy that fit in well in Detroit with a bunch of other low level stars. But now I see the light. The guy took a bunch of guys that aren’t really that good and led them to a championship. Billups was the Pistons team. Read something Rip Hamilton or Tayshon Prince says about the guy. Neither Rip nor Prince would get the recognition they do if it wasn’t for Chauncey’s teachings and leadership.
Portland is a good team
They will be get better because they outstanding young core that is maturing in the league. They also have better coach who not afraid the play them and live with some mistakes the young players make. How many DNP-CD will Balkman have this season because he doesn’t have a jump shot? How much time did Klieza get last season because of the potential of said shot? Even though Would Dennis Rodman ever had a career if Chuck Daly felt like our coach? (Not comparing them) Successful coaches will take your raw, green skills and try to sit it into the team concept. Karl likes veterans who have an already developed skill set and hates rookies and their mistakes. So were is the grow going to come from to repeat last years season when all our competition was gotten better?
Also we were very fortunate last year with injuries (relatively-free) for a team with several key members who have trouble making it thru 80+ games (Nene, K-Mart) each year. Will they regress to the mean this season.
My name is the One...
jr smith
byron scott gave up on jr and traded him. chicago had his rights for less than a week, did not even work him out then traded him to denver for howard eisley and two second round picks. the other extreme is beasley from miami. it is a very fine line in the nba between giving a player an opportunity and destroying their confidence. i think gk would put a high school paper boy into the game if he felt it would give him the best chance to win. chris andersen is a good example. he played at a junior college and the d league. denver gave him a chance. he signed with the hornets and was suspended for 2 years. he was brought back, given another chance and signed to a 5 year contract. balkman was late to practice, shoots 60% free throws, does not know the plays and was arrested for dui. i like renaldo and think he has a great future with the nugs. denver extended his contract as soon as they got him so they have big plans for him. a year ago klieza was offered a 4 year 25 million dollar contract and refused to sign it. can you build a championship team by giving minutes to a player that does not want to be part of the franchise long term?
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
Here's my point...
For the past 4 years, Denver has been one of the most talented in an abstract sense but dysfunctional teams in the NBA. The inmates were running asylum, they had a total hands-off attitude by karl letting them do what they want. Not demanding sacrifice, discipline, and teamwork from them (Kmart doing whatever with his crew, Melo with his crew, AI with his, Camby…).. So when one of them misses practices or something similar, Karl doesn’t call him on it. Were did the old Furious George go?? They one i challenged his players in Seattle, Golder State, and Milwaukee? That is the one Kronke(sp) probably thought he was hiring in the first place. So, yes we are a talented team and that what got us into playoffs for sheer talent. But the playoffs are a whole different season where discipline, teamwork, defense rain. And every time our deficiencies were exposed.
Last year, Karl finally puts his foot down and demand a certain level of sacrifice and defense. They trade for Chauncey and it works out better that any one hoped for. He totally transforms the team. and the team is successful in the postseason. But can the fire be reignited after taking a summer break? Or are due for some regression to the mean?
My name is the One...
nugs biggest opponent is themselves
with all due respect to the blazers and the rest of the league denver’s issues are internal. the stats i look at are rebounding- 15th in the nba. the 2 teams in the finals were 2nd and 3rd. not a single player averages 10 per game. free throws- 20th in %. they shot the most and made the second most. last season they were going to be more professional and play defense. this year denver needs to rebound and make free throws. if it was my money i would have signed gortat back in july. birdman and jr smith had a better season then kleiza. is it fair to them to give lk more money then them?
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
Dude...you don't just get better by adding pieces.
I never said Portland is a bad team…they just are not close to the Nuggets class til proven otherwise. And be sure to take note of Balkman and his game changing hustle this season. I agree Karl leans towards vets.
And is everyone serious about this whole growth thing? CMON. We were 2-2 and tied going into fourth quarter with LA. Its all about cohesion and experience. Seriously, why is everyone down on the nugs. What a joke. I guess pushing the champs to 6 is no big deal CMON.
And dude, our competition isnt better til proven otherwise. Our team is gonna be sweet barring injuries…and dont rule out a big trade from Mark.
And I guess you think Melo will not improve…or Nene without worrying about CANCER will not improve. And JR will not improve. And Bird will not improve. ANd Billups will not be Billups.
The Nuggets are fine…and I can argue that point til tha cows come home…relax fans….RELAX
Again, if you want to empasize the notion of being...
…proven…then the Nuggets haven’t proven anything for the 2009-2010 season…
and if you want to water down the notion of proven, then all the Nuggets have proven is that they could finish with the exact same record as the 2nd youngest team in the league…
but…PDX is “not close to the Nuggets class till proven otherwise…” you have a great team in Denver, but some realism is called for as well…
You should take the same advise!
You keep saying we need to be realistic, while you’re in la la land cuz Oden hasn’t broken anything yet. So we ended the REGULAR SEASON with the same record. Which team had the better record in THE PLAYOFFS? Hmmmm? So the Blazers have shown some bright spots in pre-season. Big deal it’s preseason. Wait until the 09-10 campaign is over and see which team has the better OVER-ALL record, then we can start tooting our horns.
You’re going off about potential. Potential is IMO a pipe dream until you do something with said potential. And last season the Blazers took all of their potential to Houston and got a warm reception from the Rockets, and were promptly asked to leave the playoffs. So all of that potential was nothing but smoke and purple haze. Why don’t you go over to a Rockets blog and talk about how your team is gonna beat a depleted and sad Rockets team, led by Shane Battier. Something they may actually do.
by Joelsopinion on Oct 8, 2009 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Lol,
Honestly, my intention isn’t to rub anythything into anyone’s face…
and in all honesty, if Denver beat PDX in the playoffs this year I can’t say I’d be absolutely shocked…
but I am a little shocked by the seeming notion that “until you win a ring, I don’t have to worry about your team, because they haven’t done nuthin!”
lol, to “all of that potential was nothing but smoke and purple haze,” though, seriously, having the roster PDX has, winning 54 games last year, and STILL having potential to grow makes the Blaze very scary to the rest of the NBA…
if you don’t mind a little poetic hyperbole to describe the likely 8 year run of success they are likely to go on.
That can be true
If your FO can keep all of those guys together for eight years, without egos or dollar signs becoming an issue. PDX does have maybe the brightest future of the contenders. BUT! All it is up to this point in time is expectation and potential. I don’t find it scary because here in Denver we’ve had to deal with the Spurs, Lakers, and Mavs, fighting for the same thing PDX is just another dog in the fight. Until all of that potential is actualized PDX will be just that. Same as Denver, Dallas, Phoenix, and Houston, all of the teams living in the shadow of LA an San Antonio.
Agreed
Denver has something to prove – that they can replicate their formula for success from last season and build on it, with minimal additions of Afflalo, Lawson, our newest Stiff Malik Allen, and a Renaldo Balkman recieving regular PT.
Portland also has to prove that they can gel with the addition of new players, continue to develop, and build on their new team identity that has been established since the arrival of Roy (who is about in the same territory as Melo right now, partly due to is maturity, for the record).
Man, I just wish that Denver could open up its Pocketbook$ like Portland.
I get your point...
but I’ll never understand how for teams that “have never won,” that they’re “all just potential,” but teams like San Antonio & LA have the rest of us “living in their shadow,” just because they’re the latest teams to win it…
S.A. is not the same team as when they won, Tim Duncan’s creaky knees and Ginoblis bum ankle speak of that, so they’re allllll potential…
And even L.A., they win 1 title without Shaq, whoppity doo dah, they’re an injury away from Kobe, or last year, an injury not happening to Shaq, from havin nuthin…
So…you have to do it on the court, agreed, but its fun to think, and alls I know, S.A. and L.A. don’t get a free pass, even if I’d have to say they rank as the #1 and possibly #2 contenders on my board…
Pretty ballsy for a Portland team which hasn't done shit
A. The Nuggets don’t have to prove anything. Maybe you forgot, but they went to the Western Conference Finals.
B. Gee, if your going by records, then why didn’t Dallas(best record since Bulls 72 wins) beat Golden State in the playoffs. All your doing Portland guy is pointing out irrelevant stuff. Portland hasn’t won a series. Get it thru your foggy skull LOL. We went to the WCFs. Chew on it….Wash it down with a big glass of Shut the Hell Up LOL.
C. And THAT’S REAL SON!
by PURSnLAKERhater on Oct 9, 2009 1:08 AM MDT up reply actions
Denver-Portland
Denver should be nervous, if, and that is a big if Oden is any good.
I will give you Roy=Melo, no problem. Roy is fantastic, in a Manu like way. Melo might be a lot better, last season’s elbow injury was the reason he wasn’t dominant until the playoffs, but we he needs to prove his game is at the Kobe / Wade / Lebron level and not at the Roy / Dirk / Pierce level.
But Oden has done nothing to make me believe he can play at Nene’s level. In fact, PDX played a hell of a lot better with Joel than Oden, even when he was healthy. The offfseason looks promising for the young guy, but let’s see him play a week of good games before you put him in Nene’s class.
Miller is closer to Billups than many think, mainly ‘cause his major weakness (outside shooting) won’t hurt Portland.
No chance Batum is on the same level as JR. Come back in two years if Batum develops, but JR is one of the more unstoppable offensive players in the league. Despite his rep, he has improved his “head” by playing smarter for ~20 straight months.
LMA versus KMart is interesting. KMart is probably the best defensive PF in the league when healthy (unless KG is healthy as well). LMA is good, much better offensively, and younger, but still disappears at times, allows the game to go away from him and spends too much time outside the key. No way PDX would trade LMA for Martin (contracts aside), but this year the game impact could be very close.
Where PDX has a HUGE advantage is the bench. Rudy, Webster, Joel, Blake, Outlaw would be a competitive starting five. Denver roles out Balkman, Birdman, Carter, Affalo, and (Lawson?, Allen?, White?). . . Denver has plenty of hustle, but PDX ’s bench is killer.
Frontrange I like your thought process...
Fair, Intelligent, & Analytical.
You make many good points, and I admit out of all the “overstated” points I may have had, JR Smith as “less than” Batum right now is perhaps too strongly stated (it was!), BUT many feel Batum will really bring it this year, annnnd part of the reason it was stated as such, is due to the fact that as a Denver coach, I’d be very worried who will cover B-Roy. I’m not worried about sticking Batum on Melo and having Roy cover JR’s perimeter shooting…
Other assesments, brilliant, but the only other “take 2” I’d like to look at is the statement that Melo “might be a lot better” than Roy.
1st: You mention Melo’s injury during the season, and his great postseason, which I’ll admit he did have, but did you watch B-Roy go against 48 minutes of perimeter defense from Ron Artest & Shane Battier during 6 games of the playoffs last year?
Answer: 459% shooting and 26.7 points per game over the series, (with Yao guarding the paint) It actually compelled Artest during the series to say Roy was the best he’s ever guarded Roy’s PER last season was off the charts, ect.
I could go on further with this one, but I don’t see any evidence to ever say Melo could be better than Roy, let alone “alot” better
In any event, I appreciate the intelligent discourse, Peace!
organic growth?
steve blake played 49 games for denver and averaged 6.6 apg. he has played 2 full seasons in portland and averaged 5 apg. that does not look like growth to me. denver brought in blake AFTER they got rid of miller. what did philly do with miller? oden so far has excelled in summer league and has played 2 preseson games against sacramento. the 1st game he did not start and excelled in garbage time. the second game against the 17 win kings their starting center did not played because of a bad ankle. oden was the 1st pick of the draft 2 YEARS AGO. you can call that growth if you want to. the nuggets starters missed 44 games last season. their bench stepped up and denver won with them.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
I agree, there will be no "organic growth" from Blake, he's a finished product right now, but not a bad backup at all...
But I’d have to say I’d expect “most improved player” to have Oden’s name on it by the end of this season, or him to at least to be in the running, and out of PDX, its not just the points, but the fluidity in which Oden is playing this year
Our starter at SF, Martell Webster, missed 81 games alone last year, and he’s coming back, you think that might help?
K-Mart not getting better…24 year old LMA getting better…Yes.
Rudy Fernandez getting better after his first year in the league…Yes.
19 year old Nicolas Batum getting better as a 20 year old…Yes.
webster
martell had 10.7 ppg and 4 rpg. linas kleiza had 9.9 ppg and 4 rpg. webster was a starter but in production it was like loosing kleiza who came off the bench. put things in perspective if roy played in 66 games AND lamarcus aldridge played in 66 game does portland win 54 games? if the nuggetts lost kleiza for the season do they win 54 games? denver is about to find out. brandon roy says oden now has a little shimmie and you say he has fluidity. i do not recall which players in the nba were #1 in fluidity and shimmies last season do you? summer league has free agents and rookies. sacramento had 17 wins last season. so far oden has done well against the bottom of the barrel. he has a long way to go. i cannot see where fluidity and shimmies propels any team to the top.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
I love Roy's game but . . .
Hey, I was telling people I thought we should have thrown max money at Manu instead of K-mart, b-4 Kiki’s blunder (’course I also thought Manu was comparable to Kobe for short periods of time) and I think Roy brings a lot of the same qualities to the table so I am a big believer in him. However:
1) His knee remain a ?mark and risk. I remember when Penny Hardaway looked like the next MJ . . .not so much in retrospect.
2) ’Melo is a scoring beast, more so than Roy. He can get a good look against pretty much anyone in the league. Wade, Bron, Kobe and yes Roy can all break guys down off the dribble better than ’Melo, but ’Melo can score in so many ways (post, offensive boards, mid range, long range), that the potential for his game to improve is clearer to me than Roy. I think Roy is what he is, brings a ton to the table, no mistakes, good to great defensive player, efficecient scorer, great closer . .all of it. What could he add? Maybe a better post game, a few more free throws and thats about it. Weird as it sounds comparing a 3 year player to a 6 year player but, ’Melo has more to add (remember they are both only 25). Roy is already polished, ’Melo is still growing defensively and offensively.
PS I know Portlanders think Batum is the second coming of Scottie Pippen . . .hey, we’ll see. What people outside of Denver don’t realize (and even in Denver ‘cause he has been such a knucklehead) is how dominant JR Smith is becoming. He is on the verge of becoming an all-star, although it won’t happen this year even if he play out of his mind. If JR continues on his current trajectory, it will take another year before the world gives him credit. You may not be afraid of Roy or Batum on JR, but as I Denver fan, I wouldn’t mind the match up either. Portland can’t put Roy on JR, ’cause JR might foul him out (Roy is better match up on Melo for PDX). The best part of JR is . . .no one knows.
PPS Since you guys have Roy, Rudy, Batum, Outlaw . . .could you just send Webster over for a draft pick and cap space?? Would appreciate it, he would fit well as Klieza’s replacement.
jr vs. roy
roy has a better basketball iq and better at the fundamentals. smith is more athletic and talented. smith closes the gap on what roy has the more time he spends with chauncey. right now roy is the better player with jr having more of an up side.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
You make more good points frontrange...and I truly liked the Webster proposal...
I am even with you on the potential that Melo could become better than Roy, but I have watched Klieza, and I have watched Webster…you could line up 100 D-1 College Coaches…or 100 twelve year old kids on the playground…
…and I believe 100 coaches, and about 95 twelve year old kids would pick Webster to be on their team for the next 4 years if they had to pick between the two…
honestly…the difference between those two is night and day…stats or no stats…and getting Webster back is going to be a huge asset. A guy who can drain 3’s while LMA, Oden, & Roy do their work inside, and a guy who can actually do a “serviceable” job when it comes time to guarding guys like Lebron, Melo, ect…notice I am not saying he’s M. Pietrus good, but he can guard those dudes without undue embarrasment…
and watching Klieza guard guys like that…NOT pretty
…When you consider we started a 19 year old at that position last year bc of that Webster loss, & that it was our weakest position last year by far, and won 54 games, the addition of Webster this year is not minimal and should not be undervalued.
In any event, I guess we can sum this up by saying this is why we play the games I find it interesting when people that I consider to actually be “rational” fans of opposing teams disagree on some things very strongly…
…and I know I am not infallible, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out, and I look forward to that first Denver game immensely!
just wondering
roy is portland’s best player and an all-star. the first thing the blazers do in the off season is try to sign hedo turkoglu. he changes his mind and signs with toronto. lamarcus aldridge is a great player. portland signs paul milsap to an offer sheet. utah matches. oden is a great player. blazers try to sign david lee. portland stikes out on their three top choices. no team wanted to sign andre miller and portland could not sign the big 3. a swing man, a power forward and a center then they opt for a point guard. if the blazers starters are so great AND their bench is so deep why are they trying to sign all of these players at all of these different positions?
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
In short: Because they can.
Paul Allen is the richest owner in pro sports, and we had free agency money to burn, an opportunity we’ll never have again.
The Blazers don’t mind paying out 10 million a year, just so a guy can get 20 minutes a game…more detail from PDX also says that
1st: Our biggest position of need right now is backup PF, if LMA gets injured, or even if Pryzilla gets injured, we do have a deep bench but not at PF, and Juwon Howard doesn’t cut it anymore, and that’s all we got there, that explains the Millsap & Lee moves (not to mention, Pryz is about 30, those 2 guys could’ve been with our CORE for the next 6-8 years playing effectively)
2nd: Turkoglu – Our starter last year at SF was 19 year old Batum, and he stayed the starter the whole season, only turning 20. PDX is really high on him, but many felt Turks savvy experience would help us win a title this year Also, Webster was hurt all of last year, and he also played SF, we weren’t sure how he’d come back from a foot injury, so Turk solidified that…from early signs this preseason, Webster is looking good though.
3rd: Besides SF, Blazers weakest starting position was PG, and Miller is an upgrade over Blake (who will now become one of the best backups in the league). Also, innacurate to say no one wanted Miller. Only a handful of teams had cap room to sign him, and the Blazers were the only one on the possible cusp of a championship. Rebuilding teams don’t sign 33 year old pointguards for 7 million a year, its a waste of money, and will just land them farther out of the lottery…but the Blazers feel they can “win it all” this year, with Miller leading them…
…so those weaknesses explain why the Blazers only won 54 games last year, Blazers fans were hoping we could get that up to 60, or 65, with the signing of one of those guys…
…and thats the long and short of it
so can stan
kroenke threw money at trying to win a championship AND it did not work. if point gaurd was the weak link why didn’t they go after the position first. over paying miller at 7 million AND blake at 4.6 million does not upgrade the point guard position. anthony carter had 4.7 apg coming off the bench and played 8 minutes less then blake who had 5 apg. ac is paid 1.3 million. miller played in the eastern conference AND philly was a .500 team. paying almost 12 million dollars to 2 denver cast offs because you can still does not upgrade the point guard position. there were way better point guards for less money. bobby jackson would have signed for less than 2 million AND he also played for denver.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
Imagine if Denver was able to get Troy Murphy
Just saying hypothetically. He is a prototypical stiff who works hard and gobbles up boards and can bury the three as well as the mid-range J.
Good compliment to Nene if you ask me…
I don’t know what we would be willing to give up to get him, but I think he is a severely underrated 3rd-4th option.
Or Antawn Jamison… but that’s just totally wishful thinking.
As a PDX fan, I have dreamed of Troy Murphy as well, I can't recall his salary, but I did check, and its pretty high...
…tough to do an equal trade because of it, drafting Psycho T opens up the door for a trade a tad though.
Psycho T?
I’m not sure what he makes either – somewhere in the 10-13 mil range. I think I would give up Kenyon Martin for him – I think the Nuggets would be a better rebound team. Our defense might suck even more, though.
Psycho T is Tyler Hansborough...plays same position as Troy Murphy...
and Murphy probably won’t fit into the “end game” of the Granger era, as he’s a tad to old for that rebuilding process…
and if you had to give up K-Mart, I’m not sure that would be worth it, Murph’s defense is pretty weak, though he is a good rebounder…
He's only three years older than Granger
Tony Bennett reports that Minnesota and Portland are swapping draft picks -- Roy to Portland, Foye to Minnesota. That's it? That's the trade? None of the ESPN guys seem remotely fazed. I knew Kevin McHale couldn't just pick the best guy in the draft without somehow screwing it up. I would have bet my Ndudi Ebi rookie cards on it.
by Salem Stephen on Oct 8, 2009 9:24 PM MDT up reply actions
...slightly closer than I recall, he's 29 to be precise, could be part of a good team, but i think Indiana is still several years away...
…if they ever make a serious run with Granger, which may never happen, Murphy will be 33 years old and on the downslope…probably Larryville is thinking they’ll be reborn as a contender in 2 years, I’m not seeing it though.
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