¿Cuál sería Pop hacer?
Denver Stiffs' resident statisticians look at the success the San Antonio Spurs have had drafting late in drafts and what the Nuggets could learn from them entering Thursday's draft.
George Hill, Tiago Splitter, Ian Mahinmi, Beno Udrih, Leandro Barbosa, John Salmons - what do all of these players have in common? The first is that they're all playing in the NBA and are either starters or solid rotational players. The second is that they were all drafted after the 22nd pick, the pick that the Nuggets have this year. The last is they were all drafted by the San Antonio Spurs. I'm going to take this a step further in a biased way (ignoring San Antonio's few misses in later rounds) and throw in Manu Ginobili (picked 57th), Luis Scola (picked 55th), Goran Dragic (picked 45th), and DeJuan Blair (picked 37th). Contrast this to the Denver Nuggets who have a tough time hitting on top 10 picks, let alone late first round picks. Since 1999, the Spurs have hit on EVERY single late 1st round draft pick. The Nuggets are about 50% on similar picks.
What are the Spurs doing that everyone else in the league isn't doing?
Let's start with some basic draft theory. In all sports, the draft is where dynasties and successful franchises are built. There are several reasons why teams that draft well tend to do better in the win-loss column:
1. Pure economics of player salary vs production. A rookie like Blake Griffin who can play at a superstar level is a hugely valuable asset because you're getting superstar or almost superstar production at a fraction of the cost. Would you rather have James Harden at 4.3 million or Joe Johnson at 20 million? A true superstar like LeBron, Wade or Dirk also makes sense economically because they're worth more than a max contract based on both production per dollar compared to the average NBA player and added value to a franchise (if there were no max salaries and teams could openly bid on LeBron, he may have received double the salary). So we've established that rookies have the most value in terms of production per dollar while superstars also have value. The players who have the worst value are above average players, some of which are thought to be superstars, coming off rookie contracts. The problem is compounded when you max these guys out. Think Kenyon Martin or any of the Knicks teams under Isaiah Thomas's management. Veterans also have poor value, relatively, however the right veterans who are thought to be washed up can be used to fill roster holes on good teams(Antonio McDyess or Peja Stojakovich) given reduced offensive usage. Also, keep in mind that players tend to get better at defense with age. In an ideal world, you'd build your team with only superstars, good rookies, and veterans to fill in holes while completely ignoring players in their 2nd and 3rd contracts who aren't superstars.
2. Very efficient players who do a variety of things well on the basketball court, affectionately referred to as superstars, for small market teams, are most easily obtained through the draft. Additionally, they are very easily identifiable by most scouts/teams and thus need to be drafted at the top of the first round.
3. Good drafting generally reflects well on the front office and their team building philosophy - they're outclassing their peers in one of the most critical aspects of team building, player evaluation.
Draft strategy changes depending on where a team is drafting. For example, if you have a top 5 pick, your job is to identify and pick a superstar as roughly 2-3 superstars come out per year. If your pick lies in the 10-20 range, your job is to find a solid starter / contributor or 2nd tier star. If your pick is in the 20-60 range, your job is to find a contributor, specialist or, worst case, someone that's able to make your roster. At the top of the first round, you have any good player with size and well-rounded players like Chris Paul who can do everything well. Teams have very little comparative advantage when picking in the top 5 picks - and that's evidenced by the fact that "experts" almost always have the same top 3 or 4 picks and the top 2 picks are almost always universally agreed upon. At the end of the first round, you have your Rajon Rondos of the world who are very good basketball players, but may have a fatal flaw like horrible shooting or good basketball players with character flaws like J.R. Smith.
The crux of drafting well consists of 4 things. The first is the ability to identify traits that contribute to winning that are not well-understood by other teams, or simply put, identifying value. For example, scoring is overrated and dumb teams tend to overpay for scoring while failing to identify good defenders (defense is half the game!). A smarter team will identify a good offensive player who is above average or very good with lower usage, but a great defender. The second is a clear team identity and commitment to an offensive and defensive scheme. For example, if you're a running team like the 7 seconds or less Suns, you want athletic bigs who can run the floor. If you're Portland, you've built your team around offensive rebounding and shooting is not as important as defense and length. Scheme is of utmost importance because you can draft specific players for specific roles that other teams may not consider. Take Bruce Bowen - he was terrible on offense except for from the corner 3. San Antonio never asked him to score and only asked him to defend at an elite level and shoot the corner 3. Their scheme dictated that his weaknesses (his terrible offense from everywhere else on the court) didn't really matter. It doesn't matter that J.J. Barea can't guard bigger point guards or rebound because Dallas goes to a zone and they have plenty of defensive rebounding. The third is the ability to think with a long term perspective. This is important because a team has to project a player into a scheme specific role, and identify which skills fit what they want that player to do and which skills they'll need to work on. Lastly, a team must do its due diligence and look into injuries, psychological state, work ethic, etc. This item should be pretty self explanatory. A team cannot draft well in the later rounds without all four of the things I described above.
How do the Spurs identify value? They realize that all teams can scout domestically, so they've chosen to focus their scouting attention on a wider player pool and scout internationally. Notice the disproportionate amount of foreign players that they've drafted. They're consistently identifying value that other teams aren't because they've built an international scouting organization and have a certain profile that they're looking for. Poor organizations only scout in the US, so they miss out of the Dikembe Mutombos who don't make it over to college basketball programs. If you're drafting Dikembe only after he has gone through the NCAAs, you end up having to draft him at the top of the first round. If you can identify him when other teams can't, you can pick him up at the end of the 1st round. Big men come at a premium and a good big man almost always goes in the top 2 picks, unless he's an international or high school player with risk (Marc Gasol, Scola, Bynum). San Antonio identifies international players (Splitter and Mahinmi) to develop and takes risks on domestic players (Blair's ACL). They identify characteristics to draft for: efficient shooting, particularly from 3 point land, defense, and the ability to create turnovers - and they're very adept at spotting these traits.
What do the Spurs value from a team building perspective? The Spurs are one of the most cerebral teams in the league and highly value intelligence and execution. Athletically, they value quickness in their guards (because it stresses rotations), the 3 point shot (floor spacing) and defense. They could care less if their players are good at getting their own shot because they can scheme open shots and don't necessarily need the shot creation.
Do the Spurs draft with a long term perspective in mind? The Spurs generally draft with a 2-3 year development cycle where they ease players into the system, develop their skillsets, and teach them how to play Spurs basketball. They drafted Splitter in 2007 and waited patiently until this year for him to join their roster and are grooming him as Duncan's replacement. They drafted Ginobli in 1999 and he didn't play for them until the 2002-2003 season. They're as long term as it gets.
Do the Spurs do their due diligence? Their track record speaks for itself . Oh, did I mention they took a chance on DeJuan Blair when every other team was scared of the fact that he has no ACLs?
Before delving into the quantitative side of things, there has been a lot of work done on variables that correlate to success in the NBA, and one of the biggest predictors of NBA success is the ability to generate steals because steals correlate with athleticism and players need a certain level of athleticism to excel in the NBA (look at Ty Lawson in college - when he got drafted I knew he'd be a star because he was super efficient, continuously improving, and got a lot of steals). Also, rebounding tends to stay pretty consistent and translate across different levels of competition. I've prepared the following chart that looks at the various characteristics that the Spurs draft for. As I mentioned above, the Spurs value efficiency on offense as determined by eFG%, TS%, and Points/Possession. An elite eFG% is > 52%, an elite TS% is > 58%, and an elite Points/Possession is > 1. If a player can't outperform those numbers internationally, they won't be able to do it at an NBA level. A good DR% is > 25% for centers and ~20% for hybrid bigs like Nene.
|
|
Stls/40 |
TS% |
eFG% |
Pts/Pos |
Dreb% |
Defensive Notes |
|
Mahinmi |
1.9 |
56% |
51% |
1.2 |
8% |
Just enough athleticism, alters shots, poor fundamentals, needs to add strength. |
|
Splitter |
1.7 |
64% |
58% |
1.21 |
20% |
Good stamina, active defender, solid defender, hustles |
|
Udrih |
1.5 |
62% |
59% |
1.08 |
|
Slow footspeed, gets beaten by faster defenders, good help side defender |
|
Parker |
N/A |
N/A |
N/A |
N/A |
|
|
|
Ginobili |
3.6 |
57% |
51% |
1.17 |
|
Plays good defense, extremely intelligent defender, plays good on ball defense |
|
Barbosa |
N/A |
N/A |
N/A |
N/A |
|
|
|
Scola |
1.3 |
63% |
60% |
1.19 |
22.90% |
Solid man to man defender |
|
Dragic |
2.4 |
70% |
69% |
1.22 |
|
Played spectacular defense on whoever he was guarding, solid lateral quickness, athleticism, effort |
There are several things that are pretty obvious from the chart. San Antonio, for the most part, only drafts players with numbers that are off the charts in terms of offensive efficiency. Against more athletic competition, those numbers would be expected to drop, but still remain high. The second thing to notice is that all players maintain a Points / Possession way above 1. The third thing to notice is the rate at which their players get steals. The average NBA player averages around .7 steals per game. Steals are important because they create extra possessions and, as mentioned above, players who get a lot of steals tend to have skillsets that translate well in the NBA. Every Spurs player has an abnormally high steal rate for their position. Finally, and most importantly, you'll note that the Spurs don't draft any players who are questionable defensively. They have to at least defend at a baseline level. If you read a lot of international scouting reports, you'll see a lot of comments such as "weak defender", "lacks lateral quickness", "can't defend the pick and roll". The Spurs stay away from these guys. One other thing to mention is that If you look at these guy's profiles on draft express there is significant sample size and body of work to evaluate from. The Spurs don't take chances on "raw talent".
You're probably thinking to yourself, that's great, but how does this help the Nuggets out at #22. Well, I'm advocating that the Nuggets look internationally with their pick because it's something few teams in the NBA are doing effectively, and a huge sustainable advantage. In fact, given Masai Ujiri's background running the Raptors' Global Scouting, his background in starting international basketball camps, and his drafting of Carlos Delfino, Jose Calderon, and Andrea Bargnani all evidence indicates that he gets it and should play to his strengths. There's no denying that the guy has an eye for spotting offensive talent in international basketball players. However, if you compare the players the Raptors have drafted to the players the Spurs have drafted, you'll notice one crucial difference - the Raptors' players can't defend while the Spurs' players can. Again, the Spurs excel in identifying basketball skills that are undervalued, quantifying them, and then drafting those players. Most teams can't quantify the impact of good defenders on their own rosters (Memphis and Tony Allen), let alone on an international basketball stage. If you can't play defense in the NBA, you can't stay on the court as your team defense will eventually be exposed like we saw in the finals with Peja and Bibby. Masai's biggest problem when scouting for the Raptors was the fact that he either ignored defense or didn't have the mechanisms to properly evaluate defense.
Which international players should we look at? I've prepared a similar chart below, containing the same stats that I hypothesized the Spurs look at. Keep in mind the sample sizes are a little bit small in some cases, but it should be really obvious which players will make it in the NBA and which will not. The strategy for evaluating players is 3 fold: 1. the players must be elite in terms of efficiency and points per possession. 2. the players can't have large defensive question marks. If they do, they should be correctable such as playing out of position. Lack of desire should not be an issue. 3. they must get steals at a proficient level. To me, there are 3 players that jump out - Jan Vesely, Leon Radosevic, and Milan Macvan. Vesely is projected as a top 15 player and will most likely not be available when we pick, but he is super efficient and competes hard on defense - he creates a large number of steals but his rebounding leaves a lot to be desired. The second best player on the board, in my opinion, is Radosevic. He fits what the Spurs and myself would look for to a T. High number of steals per 40 minutes, efficient shooting, high points per possession, rebounds well, and gives good effort on defense. Macvan is probably worth taking a chance on - he scores very efficiently, defensive rebounds at an elite rate and compares very favorably to Luis Scola while playing hard on defense.
|
|
Stls/40 |
TS% |
eFG% |
Pts/Pos |
Dreb% |
Defensive Notes |
|
Biyombo |
0.8 |
56% |
56% |
0.98 |
13.40% |
High impact defender, super athletic |
|
Valanciunas |
0.6 |
70% |
74% |
1.26 |
16.80% |
Struggles with 1 on 1 defense, lacks strength, does a good job of challenging shots |
|
Mirotic |
1.2 |
63% |
59% |
1.23 |
8.80% |
Had trouble defending the pick and roll, lacks effort on the defensive end |
|
Vesely |
1.9 |
65% |
63% |
1.2 |
10.60% |
Intense competitor, has enough athleticism and length, lacks lateral quickness and ability to defend 1 on 1 |
|
Kanter |
1.3 |
48% |
43% |
0.89 |
5.50% |
Ineffective defender, instincts and positioning leave a lot to be desired, poor effort |
|
Motiejunas |
1.2 |
60% |
56% |
1.14 |
14.70% |
Athletic enough to play defense, lacks desire, liability trying to defend on the perimeter |
|
Nogueira |
No |
Sample |
Size |
Stay |
Away |
|
|
Bertans |
No |
Sample |
Size |
Stay |
Away |
|
|
Bogdanovic |
1.9 |
57% |
52% |
1.1 |
15.80% |
Below average defender, struggles to defend average European players, poor lateral quickness |
|
Radosevic |
2.1 |
59% |
56% |
1.14 |
15.10% |
Good fundamentals, good effort, struggles vs post ups plays, lacks girth |
|
Macvan |
1.2 |
65% |
60% |
1.26 |
22.80% |
Plays tough low post defense, shows no reserves about getting physical, smart player, lacks lateral quickness |
So there you have it - if I'm running the draft I'm not doing as George Karl says and trying to trade up. I'm shooting for Radosevic in the first round and Macvan in the 2nd round. I'm not advocating drafting these 2 guys with a myopic focus, that would be the opposite of what I described above with regards to doing your due diligence. Every player should be evaluated, but the chances are much, much higher of getting a solid player if we look internationally.
Note: Since I wrote this Radosevic and Nogueira have undeclared, so unfortunately the Nuggets can't draft Radosevic. It doesn't change the general framework around player evaluation and we should still consider Macvan with one of our picks.
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Nice work
But are you really gonna tell me you’d take a guy at 22 whom most mock drafts didn’t even have slated to be drafted even when he was going to declare, over guys like Faried, Selby, Brooks, Harris, Jenkins, etc.? Again, you obviously worked your ass off for this post and to that I salute you (I know how much work something this long takes), but there are flaws to the way the Spurs draft believe it or not.
Take this post season for example. After years of drafting the “Spurs way” — getting guys that play defense, have a good outside shot, possess a high steals ratio — and winning over 60 games in the regular season, they got absolutely trounced in the first round by… a purely more athletic team. And yet, the Spurs have known they need more athletic, younger guys for years, but they continue to ignore this by drafting the way you mentioned. Now it’s really caught up to them.
The other thing you don’t neccesarily take into affect is two things: Tim Duncan and Greg Popovich. One is simply the best power forward of all time, and the other, one of the best coaches of all time. I’m not trying to take anything away from Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili and the rest of the crew down in San Antonio, but having the two aforementioned superstars (Pop is a superstar coach) makes life a hell of a lot easier on the rest of the team. This goes for drafting too. Although Salmons, Barbosa, Udrih and Splitter have all been great selections for where they were picked, lets be serious, they aren’t much on their own.
I love the idea of scouting foreign players, and fully endorse it for the most part, but we’re fooling ourselves if we think George Karl and a handful of our current, good NBA players (Ty, Nene, Gallo, etc.) are going to make them any more than just… good NBA players. I guess my point is: Good players are good players, no matter where they’re from. I don’t want to pigeon hole ourselves into drafting this way or that way specifically based on some formula. I just want us to do as much research as we can, put our hearts and soul into analyzing talent and my guess is that if we do this the right way, we’ll win every time.
That's the problem.
If I understand this correctly, the whole idea of drafting is fitting guys into a system. The Spurs, because of Pop and Duncan, like you said, have a system. We, short and simple, do not have a system. Not at all. So exactly how do you propose we draft? Based on upside, potential, athleticism? While it may not sound like the worse things in the world, these are all qualities that either can’t be quantified easily or don’t translate to long-term NBA success.
Honestly, at least this idea proposes that we CREATE a system and try to stick to it. It’s pointing us in the right direction. We’ve already seen that the way we do things pretty much keeps us stuck in mediocrity. We need to move in a different direction, and although I’m not saying this is exactly how we should do things (because hell if I should be making basketball decisions), but I can’t honestly say I think that what we’re doing is working well enough.
"J.R. SMITH! WITH NO REGARD FOR COMMON SENSE!" - Future Kevin Harlan Quote
"They're two-deep at the crazy position!" - Kenny "The Jet" Smith.
Pure athleticism and potential
Are what every single team in the league are evaluating on. You’re not going to have a huge edge doing things this way against godo teams.
You need talent, undervalued qualities (such as a PG who’s really good at rebounding), and scheme fit so you can hide weaknesses or so that weaknesses that other teams would stay away from aren’t necessarily issues in your system.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Until Karl goes, we won't have a system to plug these guys into though
That’s what I’m kind of saying too. Pop IS that S.A. system. The players they draft, fit his style very well. Karl doesn’t have a style. He’s like the drunk warden of an insane asylum — there is to structure!
by GoldenNugget on Jun 18, 2011 11:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Agreed about Pop + Duncan being huge
You have no idea if these guys are successful because they’re on the Spurs or went through the Spurs organization or not. My argument would be they’re both identifying players better than every other team + coaching them up better. I mean, half the guys they drafted aren’t even on their team anymore and are still good to very good players in the NBA (Salmons and Scola).
So, to answer your question yes, I’d take Manu Ginobli over Kenny Thomas, Deveant George, Tim James, Vonteego Cummings, Jumaine Jones, Scott Padgett, Leon Smith (the guys drafted after 22 that year who they could have taken).
Your using the example of them losing in this year’s playoffs is flawed in so many ways. Dallas got swept by the Spurs – clearly drafting Dirk was flawed. Sometimes you run into a team that matches up perfectly against your style (for the record, I thought the Nuggets matched up beautifully against the Mavs but poorly against the Thunder). The Grizzlies didn’t necessarily win because of more athleticism – they won because of their knowledge of the Spurs’ offensive outlets and where the passes were going + Tony Allen’s ability to both defend the PnR and close out on shooters. So, the way they’ve drafted led them to the 2nd best record in the league this year. Its led them to be consistent contenders and a couple championships with Parker + Ginobli. Clearly, it’s flawed. Also, it’s the #22 pick, who are you expecting to get there? If you can get a guy who makes your team and contributes you’re doing really well.
Also, I agree, we shouldn’t pigeonhole ourselves into drafting a specific way – just laying out a general framework for thinking and evaluation that has been proven to work for the Spurs. Like I said at the end of the post – a myopic focus on drafting in Europe would be counterproductive and a giant failure to do your due diligence. I’m advocating increasing time spent evaluating foreign players as part of a complete draft strategy – and if we do that we’ll generally find that there’s a lot of value to be had drafting internationally.
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Agreed on the international scouting
I can’t argue with you on that. But I still maintain that Duncan and Pop were and are still the Spurs (though Duncan’s almost done). Without those two, even if the Spurs kept Scola, they probably wouldn’t be more than a playoff team on a few occasions.
by GoldenNugget on Jun 18, 2011 11:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Great write up
The thing that caught my attention the most though was the title. Thank you for making things fun for us linguists out here.
NBA Champons for 2010-11 season=Denver Thuggets
NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!
yeah that's an interesting Spanish structure to say the least
¿Qué haría Pop? might be what you’re looking for
Spanish was my first language (Born in Argentina)
I would’ve said
¿Quien elige Pop?
MOZGOD Member #35
Spanish is my Sesame Street Language
Casa
Aqua
Hola!
Formerly KS and CS
by ThrowItDownBigManThrowItDown on Jun 18, 2011 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions
I haven't taken Spanish since high school
Google Translate :)
I might change the title
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
Go with CombatChuk
NBA Champons for 2010-11 season=Denver Thuggets
NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!
by Army of Nugs on Jun 19, 2011 6:39 PM MDT up reply actions
going with CombatChuk
would be grammatically erroneous.
@CombatChuk
2 things:
One: I think they’re doing a play on the saying “What would Jesus do?”
Two: You would’ve said “¿Quien elige Pop?” but you SHOULD’VE said ¿A quien elige Pop? In your structure it would be translated as “who elects/choose Pop” whereas what you want to say is “who does Pop elect/choose” Gotta have your personal a my friend.
Que haria Pop? = What would Pop do?
or A quien elegiria Pop? = Who would Pop choose?
These are the 2 best titles here. You need to use the conditional because its a hypothetical situation. Glad someone else caught it.
Google translators suck…
I agree with GN's post above on one thing ^
There’s something fishy about going hard after a player that wasn’t even slated to be drafted that early based on only the stats you’ve shown.
Where’s the comparison to the domestic players and their stats? I know you can’t directly compare the two because NCAA ball is vastly different from international competition, but I’d like to think that there is some stats that can be used to show how certain kinds of domestic players translated into the NBA in a similar fashion to the way you analyzed international draftees. For example, how does a 20% DReb% in the NCAA compare to a 20% DReb% in Europe? (Or something like that, I’m not the greatest with this kind of stats). Is there away to adjust for the difference between domestic and international? Just throwing ideas out there, there’s gotta be a way to throw the domestic players in the mix as well.
All around great work though, it was definitely a good read and it explains a lot.
"J.R. SMITH! WITH NO REGARD FOR COMMON SENSE!" - Future Kevin Harlan Quote
"They're two-deep at the crazy position!" - Kenny "The Jet" Smith.
That's the same thing people said to Billy Beane too
The key part of the draft is getting value where other teams aren’t finding value – not getting value based on what “experts” supposedly have on their draft boards. Most people think getting value is drafting a guy at 20 who most experts had projected as top 10. For example, getting Bowers in this year’s NFL draft when he was expected to be a top 5 pick. That’s one way of identifying value, but what if Mel Kiper and Chad Ford are wrong?
More importantly, value means identifying players that other teams don’t identify who are good players and able to contribute to your team. People projected Manu Ginobili as an undrafted player – if you drafted him at 20, it’d be pretty good value as you got a really good player who’s a 2nd or 3rd tier star. If you filled your draft with guys who didn’t show up on draft top 100 lists who all ended up being NBA starters then you’ve done your job. The Patriots are famous for not having a complete draft board and identifying a list of 50-60 players they want to target. The other draft philosophy is to fill up your board with X number of players where X = the number of total draft picks in the draft. For example, if there are 64 picks in the NBA draft, you’d fill your board with 64 players.
Anyways, there are tons of stats that correlate in NCAA basketball. They look similar to what I’ve presented above – DReb% is pretty consistent and translates well – which is why the Spurs drafted Blair- his DReb% was pretty ridiculous in college. Again, steals is one of the top predictors of NBA success and efficiency should always matter. If you’re interested, look at John Hollinger’s draft prediction machine – he fed a bunch of stats in, did a correlation on which variables matter, and uses that to predict the draft. For the record, he had Blake Griffin, Ty Lawson, and DeJuan Blair as the top players in the draft a few years ago.
You can evaluate international in a similar way and you can get good predictors by looking at how players who have made it into the NBA and how their stats compare to their Euro stats. Additionally, you have to adjust for quality of play as not all Euro leagues are created equal (I think the Adriatic league has better competition). Like I mentioned in the post, if you’re not really efficient in Euro play, you’ll never be a good NBA offensive player as NBA competition is much higher than Euro competition. DReb% is one of the skills that translates though – which is why Scola continues to play at such a high level and Macvan projects so well.
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twitter.com/chantech
You'd be doing your franchise a diservice by taking a guy at 20 (or 22) who was slated to be undrafted
If you’re truly sold on someone like that than you find a way to obtain a second rounder, then take them. If you really think Macvan is gonna be something special, it shouldn’t change what we do at 22. We just need to find a way to get into the late second round.
by GoldenNugget on Jun 18, 2011 11:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Skillet?
I assumed you meant skill set the first time I saw it, but you repeated it later. Is skillet something other than a cooking utensil, or did you mean skill set?
Formerly KS and CS
by ThrowItDownBigManThrowItDown on Jun 18, 2011 10:43 AM MDT reply actions
Textedit on a Mac autocorrects sometimes....
I edited it, thanks!
http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech
So how is it that nobody has been talking about this guy at all??
Just from watching a short YouTube video I found on the guy I can tell he looks pretty solid.
by InboundingLobPass on Jun 18, 2011 6:16 PM MDT reply actions
jeeze after doing some research I'm liking Macvan more and more.
And considering that “nobody” is looking at him strongly what do you think about taking somebody ELSE with our pick @ 22, then buying a second round pick on the cheap and taking Macvan? We could get two contributors in this draft and really come out ahead!
by InboundingLobPass on Jun 18, 2011 6:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Greta article...
I would agree that the Nuggets need to come to the draft with some sort of formula beyond the traditional potential, and athleticism bandwagon approach. The draft always has some element of luck to it, however, drafting for players with high player efficiency, rebounding %, and steals per game is a good start. The only problem with the Nuggets, is that I don’t think we will find the type of player we need for the immediate future. Sure drafting a player who will set the franchise up in a couple years is extremely important, but the Nuggets need someone now who can give them clutch baskets. Look at all the teams who did well in these playoffs, they all had two common themes. 1) They could all play defense, and 2) they had a go to guy who could either create a shot for himself, or set up his teammates in crunch time. The Nuggets are lacking that guy who can show up in the clutch, and do it consistently. Now the major question is, do we have a guy like that on our roster already? Unfortunately I don’t think so. I guess Gallo could become that guy, but so far he has been to inconsistent. If you look at his numbers from New York, he had a habit of either showing up big or not showing up at all. That wont get it done in the playoffs. The draft is important, but I believe free agency will be more important to the Nuggets this year. I hate to name drop as this type of speculating can be pointless, but if we could sign a type of player like a Jamal Crawford I think it could really help the Nuggets next year (assuming we have basketball). We have a solid team already. We need an extra big who can rebound and that clutch 4th quarter performer. We can find that big in the draft this year, but I doubt he would help us this year, as you mentioned in the post it will likely take a couple of years to get the full potential from anyone we draft at #22.
But see
The Spurs draft players that fit into their system, that is why the players they have work, many of their bench players would be much less useful in a different system, the Spurs revolve around passing until they find the open man, while the Nuggets reply on a athletic slash and dash approach, with a little pop and drop, and a few pick and rolls scattered, but the main point is that the Nuggets success has mainly been due to utilizing our players athletic abilities because we have one of the most athletic teams in the NBA. We wouldn’t have much use for a George Hill type of player because our system just wouldn’t allow it.
I can see why we want players like Kenneth Faried and Iman Shumpert in the draft because they are the top athletes in the draft this year.
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www.GalloInGlasses.com
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
President of the AAA fan club.
TyRay Felton, where speed knows no boundaries.
Logic is only the beginning of wisdom.
You make really good points...
I’d agree with you on the Spurs but their players that have left the organization have also found success. So, the success seems to be a combination of the right system + the ability to identify better players.
Goran Dragic is a solid NBA backup, Scola is a legitimate starter that I would take in a heartbeat, same with John Salmons.
As far as the Nuggets, we’re on the same page. Part of what I was trying to convey in the article is that the Nuggets past drafts have sucked because of the lack of a systemic approach and a framework for what they’re trying to do and what skills they need at each position. The Nuggets don’t have this today and it’s one of the tenants of draft success I listed above and something I feel like good GMs do – Pritchard in Portland, Presti in OKC, Pop and Buford in SAS, Smith in Orlando and definitely Cuban / Nelson in Dallas.
As a GM, you can either say players like George Hill and JJ Barea won’t work and have 0 comparative advantage in the draft over every other team (if every team differentiates on talent, then the guy with the 1st draft pick always wins – unless he sucks at evaluation) or you can make a commitment to a system or philosophy, work with the coach to refine it and, if need be, hire another coach, and then build your team with a sustainable advantage going forward.
The best example of this I can give is Mark Cuban with Avery Johnson. Cuban made the NBA finals, and might have won if not for DWade and the refs and then fires his coach in the offseason. Avery Johnson didn’t have the thought process, system philosophies, and schematic design talent that Carlisle does and the Mavs felt like they were training him on the job. Instead, they wanted a guy who made good adjustments, was strong schematically, and would intuitively understand the quantitative feedback he was receiving from the front office. The point I’m trying to make here is if you don’t have a commitment to a system from either the front office, players or coaches, you need to make changes in order to get it, because the good teams in all of sports have that commitment and system.
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Good writeup and you present good analysis pieces
But there’s no context and and ultimately, no real conclusion. Don’t take that as a dig, I think you’re on your way to making a good case, but at the moment, it’s incomplete.
Like Agaliarept stated above, you need to be able to compare to NCAA players. Otherwise you’re examining foreign players in a vacuum and the draft is not a vacuum. It’s one thing, and a critical one at that, to be able to identify players which you think will have good NBA careers. However, it’s another thing to determine the value of that player compared to everyone else available. Just saying you believe “Foreign Player X” will be good in the NBA isn’t enough, you have to compare his abilities and ceiling to all other players, especially players that may be available at #22. If you’re saying you believe Macvan could be a good NBA player, does that mean we take him at #22 no matter what because he’ll be the best ranked player available?
If you want to take this to the next level and really present a complete picture, you would need to evaluate all players in the draft, or say the top 100 prospects, figure out their efficiency numbers, then weight them against the level of competition they’re playing. So if you’re saying the Euroleague is the highest level of basketball outside of the NBA, their numbers would be 1.0. If the D-1 NCAA is the next highest level, maybe multiply their efficiency numbers by .9. If D-2 NCAA is the 3rd highest, multiple their numbers by .8. It’s an imperfect system but to get the quantitative analysis down you have to make these types of assumptions to give us a complete picture.
As an addition, I think it’s shown at least with draft prospects, quantitative analysis is not enough on its own. It’s pretty good on its own once you have a large enough sample size in the minors or majors, but making the jump from amateur to professional, quantitative analysis is still not enough on its own, so you need to factor in the qualitative as well.
Agreed on all points
What I wanted to do was present a framework for evaluation and make the point that teams should spend more time scouting internationally. The other point I was trying to make is that, unlike the NFL draft where a good hit rate is 55-60%, the NBA draft can be a little more objective and quantified and there’s a larger gap between what the good teams and bad teams are doing.
Even spending a little bit of time on analysis, you can get a good picture of which players will be successful and which players won’t – at both an NCAA and an international level.
If I were an actual GM, I’d do exactly what you described above. It’d be a comprehensive study of what correlates with success at both an international and an NCAA level, how much should the stats be discounted, etc. Then I’d evaluate each of the top 150 players or so, immediately discounting a bunch of them via quick film study + stats.
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Always enjoy Chantech's analysis - bravissimo
I also like TChizza’s idea of factoring in a “competition level coefficient” to help evaluate international prospects. Kind of a blunt instrument, but helpful in deciding which guys to spend more time evaluating.
As Cloudburst says, great athletes are always tempting – especially to a team that plays fast, like Denver. But the only NBA -elite athlete on our squad was JR, before or after the Trade. Ty is fast as hell, but the others are hustling, not dominating thru athleticism. Lesser athletes like Justin Harper or Chandler Parsons could also fit into that context.
If you appy Chantech’s parameters to the prospects at 22, Faried and Shumpert probably don’t come out as well as Charles Jenkins, who does more things well and is super-efficient in all scoring.
I don’t know to rate the international guys who might be there at 22, but Chan’s point about Macvan is very well taken. If you can keep a guy like that under the radar and nab him in the second round, theen you have pulled a Spurs move.

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