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Breaking Down the Big Ugly Lockout

Nate, I know you enjoy a good intelligent debate; so this posting is for you!!!

Apples-to-Oranges
Comparison has been made between the recent NFL and NBA lockouts. I was more pro-owners on the NFL lockout; but I am more pro-union with the NBA. Reading my recommended goals at the bottom, I’d say I actually came in somewhat in the middle (give here, give there).

Star-divide

 

I believe NBA franchises are losing money and system reform is necessary. Where I differ, is my belief that much of the lost money, in the NBA, is a result of bad management rather than out of control player salaries and the economy; though these also play factors. Small market status didn’t get in the way of Sacramento being a contender a few years ago.

The Union
I wonder if the players union erred in taking a status-quo position. This has put them on the defensive on almost all fronts. Since negotiations are give & take by nature, they don't really have a platform to negotiate from; other than trying to not lose too much.

The Owners
Rather than "Hawk & Dove" or "Clueless and Have a Clue" in this posting I will group the owners by the following; Deliberately Cheap & Neglectful Owners (DCNO) and, Actually Gives A Rat's Azz (AGARA), and, the others.


AGARA owners I regard as those who are dedicated to trying to win. During the collective bargaining agreement (CBA) negotiations I enjoyed Mark Cuban's refreshingly honest approach where he said he would prefer the salary cap to be lower because that means he would spend less money. But if the cap is higher he said he's ok too; regardless of the cap he would squeeze every last nickel's worth of spending to deliver a title contender.


DCNO owners are those who are ugly deliberately cheap owners, those who truly do not care about team success and those who wouldn't mind the CBA to go nuclear; many of those owners also happen to own NHL franchises and believes the charred cinder that had become the NHL a few years back is the right move to go with the NBA. Poster children for this group include Donald Sterling, Robert Sarver and Enos Kroenke.

 

 

And now, The Issues

 

Contract Length
Maximum contract length of 4 years for players re-signed by their own teams (currently 6 years) and 3 years for players joining new teams (currently 5 years).

Perspective - I have no problem with this. Part of the mess the league is in is due to really bad and really long contracts to players not worthy (Eddy Curry, Kenyon Martin) plus even big dollar contracts to star players whose skills deteriorate much earlier than their contracts (Tracy McGrady).

If I Was the Union - I'd accept this; if I got what I wanted in other areas to make up for it.

Limiting Bird Rights (and the Melo Rule)
The owners are trying to introduce changes to the Bird Rights to further limit player movement.

Perspective - A tool for owners to suppress movement of players that have earned those rights by time served in the League. The owners want to label this the Melo Rule. Manipulation and intimidation by the franchises was what turned the trade into such a drama; not the player’s desires. Adding the Melo Rule, all that does is turn players into Deron Williams; force a team to trade you a year earlier. Trying to remove the sign-and-trade is only another method to try to restrict player movement which I would not be in favor of.

If I Was the Union - Tough Call; but I would hold for status quo and believe the issue falls by the wayside as progress is made on other issue.

Mid Level Exception 
$5.8 million to $3 million with a maximum contract length of two years.

Perspective – I agree with the contract length; but not the amount. For the non-stars, the MLE really is the bread & butter of free agent movement and probably should be going forward.

If I Was the Union - Agree to 2 years; but set the maximum contract amount to $4 million. Players who finish their 2 year MLE should then qualify for Bird Rights.

Amnesty
On the last amnesty, the amnestied money did not count on the tax, but still was part of the cap.

Perspective - In support of this; it's a win/win; players get paid and owners wanting it will get relief. Players can sign with another team or just disappear in the mist if they either are not able or not willing to play any longer.

If I Was the Union - Accept the amnesty if the amnestied money no longer counts against either the cap or tax.

Cap Reform 
I appear to be in the minority on this matter; but I’ve felt for a long time reform is needed if the league ever cares to introduce fiscal sanity in the NBA system. Neither steamrolling cost cuts or maintaining status-quo deals with the goal to provide a means for sincere owners to operate effectively without runaway spending and circumventing the rules. With the DCNO owners, sadly you can’t make them run a franchise in a sincere manner.

Two primary areas I see for reform are contract buyouts and injury exceptions. Both are facts of life that often times handcuff a franchise either by exploding spending over the cap and tax; or paralysis of action for fear of cost overruns.

 

Owners have insurance on players. If a player has a major injury the team gets insurance money back to cover the player loss. An Injury Trade Exception can also be available. Some owners choose to not use the trade exception but also pocket the insurance money; straight profit for the owner and the team & fans lose twice. Contract buyouts also occur, but the money does not fall off of the cap & tax even though the player is immediately able to sign elsewhere. Again, teams and fans lose twice (lose the player / cannot replace the player).

 

Perspective – I would address Injury Exceptions and Contract Buyouts. Injury Exceptions would be two-fold. 1) Players acquired via Trade Exceptions should not count against the cap, or at least not against the luxury tax. With agreed upon shorter contracts, this becomes less of a risk. 2) If a team chooses to not use an Injury Trade Exception they should not be allowed to cash in on the Injury Insurance money; though I would give on this point.

I would push for Contract Buyouts not counting against the cap; or at least not counting against a tax.

 

If I Was the Union – Change so insurance exceptions and buyouts no longer count against the cap; or at least against the tax.

 

Luxury Tax
Proposed - A luxury tax of $2 for every $1, then $3 for every $1 for hitting the tax line three times in a five-season span, and then $4 for every $1 for teams that stray beyond the tax line five straight seasons.


Perspective - Owners want this but also fight revenue sharing. This smells more like the DCNO owners wanting to pawn this off on the players because they can't win their argument with the AGARA owners.


If I Was the Union - Fight to keep status-quo. If other matters get resolved smartly, then this issue loses some relevance.

 

Free Agency

Interestingly, changes to free agency has not been brought up.

 

If I Was the Union – I would keep same framework in place; especially in light of other changes.

 

Contract Opt Outs

This is one subject I am in agreement with the owners ... somewhat. Throughout league history there have been horrible contract signings ... long term high dollar contracts.

 

Perspective - Except for cases of legitimate long term or career ending injury, players who benefit from these horrible contracts should not be exempt from change. If anything, the Eddy Curry’s of the league is where the biggest reform should take place.

 

If I Was the Union – Implement both team and player contract opt outs every two years of a contract.

 

Salary Cap
It had fallen under the radar a bit by the BRI; but this seems to always be an agenda headliner by the DCNO owners; a smaller cap, a harder cap, a cap with a straight bill rather than curved, a cap with a propeller on the top that spins in circles with the wind.


Perspective - Revenue is up but the cap must go down. Shortening the cap or hardening it makes little sense unless the owners are willing to address their failings through reform; such as handling of bad paper. Shorter contract length helps but owners in the real world still need to take responsibility for their mistakes.


If I Was the Union – Agree to keep the cap number similar to what it is today. Much of the runaway costs would be addressed with shorter contracts, shorter/smaller MLE. Give & take is needed. Not in favor of a hard cap unless the cap is higher and other reforms to remove bad money off of the cap are implemented.

 

BRI
This has been talked to death; 57, 47, 53, 43, 51, 49, 50, 50, no no nooo. That the players should have a smaller slice of the pie I think is fair; that the players should totally flop down to 43% I disagree with. The players are the product. If the owners want to spend less, they should expect a lesser quality product and in turn charge the fans less for a lower quality product. Of course that's not the case; though some owners may fantasize of paying the LeBron’s only  $2M a year, raise ticket prices and the cost of parking, nachos & beer (if they could get away with it of course) pocket all the money and never let any player move on their own.


Perspective - I believe resolution of this would be a byproduct of dealing with the other matters, rather than vice versa.


If I Was the Union - I think 53% is reasonable. If the owners want a true 50/50 then in turn it should be for the whole pie, including the slice the owners skim off the top before splitting with the players.

Contract Roll Backs

Look forward, not backward.

 

Perspective – Write this off as the price of doing business. If you don’t like the paper, amnesty or buy the player out. In turn you get shorter contracts, smaller MLE & opt outs to avoid bad paper in the future.

 

If I Was the Union – No opt outs.

 

Franchise Tag
Though not mentioned recently, I do suspect this is still on the owners wish list. Depending on whether and how bad they beat the union, don't be surprised if the owners try to push this through.


Perspective - A Franchise Tag is a bad thing. It is a bad thing in the NFL and will be just as bad of a thing in the NBA. This tag would give the DCNO another tool to generate more revenue by forcing to keep a player on the roster while refusing to invest in improving the team around him. This would have been Melo last year and Blake Griffin in a few years.


If I Was the Union - I would refuse this and fight it strong. It would be a bad tool to impact the players and have a trickledown effect to the rest of the roster.

Union Decertification
Major trap here; thankfully the agents finally understood just what the risk is and stopped trying to sell this to the players.


Perspective - This isn't a magic Ace card in the union's sleeve. The DCNO owners would love the union to de-certify; then they could take the argument to court and claim since the union was de-certified by the players all agreements as part of the union are now null and void ... including player salaries. And, it is distinctly possible the owners would win this argument in court and the NBA truly does go full nuclear.


If I Was the Union - Stay away from this unless the rank in file truly is prepared to lose everything in trying to win their argument.

 

Goals for Agreement:

Contract Length – Agree to 4yr/3yr
Bird Rights and the Melo Rule – Agree to no change
MLE – Agree to $4m/2yr annual MLE with player Bird rights after the 2years
Amnesty – Agree to 1x amnesty contingent on amnestied money does not count against the cap or tax
Cap Reform – Agree to positive reforms in areas such as Injury Exception, Contract Buyout and such

Luxury Tax – Agree to current luxury tax in place today
Free Agency – Agree to current free agency framework

Contract Opt Outs – Agree to player and franchise opt-outs every two years

Salary Cap – Agree to plan similar to what is in place today
BRI – 52/48, 51/49, possibly even 50/50 dependent on successful agreement on the other goals
Contract Roll Backs - No

Franchise Tag – No

Union Decertification - No

Write respectfully of your SB Nation community and yourself.

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An interesting but conveniently simplistic and pro-owner Denver Post article

Published by Dave Kreiger today.

http://www.denverpost.com/krieger/ci_19101316

Interesting points, but overly simplistic and put little to no responsibility on the owners.
In 2006 the new luxury tax provisions were put in place where teams pay a luxury tax if the team payroll exceeds 61% of the NBA average team projected Business Related Income (BRI).
Teams that already had questionable maximum contracts in place had little recourse to avoid the tax.
Was it really a re-awakening of judgment or just buyer’s remorse in mid-stream; and rather than try to fix the problem or commit short-term to title contention the decision made was do nothing and wait until all the contracts ended.
Injured players were not replaced though injury trade exceptions were available; but the owner still pocketed the injury insurance money.
Trades were not made to build the strength of the roster but instead were one player for one player trades; only minimum contract players acquired and roster moves were made solely for the sake of cutting salary. In short the product suffered and the fans lost.
True resolution requires commitment to change by owners and players; otherwise the risk of owners making long term bad decisions is still out there.

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"

by the word on Oct 13, 2011 4:20 PM MDT reply actions  

First off, FANTASTIC breakdown. It may look long folks, but it's a MUST READ!

If I would have written this breakdown, you would have captured what I would have wanted to say almost to a T.

Franchise Tag: I thought about this … sort of disagreed with you that it should be implemented, but in hoops, unlike the NFL, an unhappy player can sour a whole locker room. In the NFL, franchise guys seem to just sack up and play ball. Although you don’t hear too much about bad apples in locker rooms (at times you do, but not like in the NBA). So I agree, players need to fight to keep this out of the CBA.

MLE: I do think it should be rolled back a bit. Like you say, the MLE is basically the “middle class” of the NBA world. So if it’s gone completely then there would be too much of a gap between Max players and the rest of the league … the BRI the players get HAS to be spend somewhere so it makes sense to keep the MLE. I would like to see the lengths cut down and the amount, I think you called that right.

Luxury Tax: Will it ever effect teams like the Lakers, Knicks or Bulls? No matter what you try to do, those teams can afford to spend. There needs to be some sort of reward program, if you will, for teams like Denver, Indiana and others to spend money. I don’t know what it is, but I think it should be part of the Revenue Sharing issues … if you do X, Y and Z then you should get more % of the revenue sharing (if there was such a thing) … and teams like the Clippers or other bottom feeders who don’t try to improve their teams and keep a low payroll (see AVS in the NHL and Bears in the NFL) should not get very much of the % of revenue sharing to penalize them.

Contract outs: A must have. Denver should NOT have had to pay K-Mart all $90+ million. Yes, the owner screwed up giving it to him, but if injury keeps him from being able to perform … then there should be an out. A two year opt out would be great. A buy out that has some % that still counts towards the cap after like year 3 or 4 should be allowed as well. Then the chess game that is signing guys doesn’t go completely out the window because putting together a team is still a part of the game and should factor in, but you also shouldn’t have to pay for it for 6+ years.

I talked about a lot of these issues, not in total depth, in my latest podcast on coloradosportsguys.com #10 (free on iTunes … shameless self promotion).

Great points for debate the Word, love it!

by Nate Timmons on Oct 13, 2011 5:51 PM MDT reply actions  

More on that revenue sharing program idea … if they put it in, teams should get a larger % for winning records, making the playoffs and other incentives … ideas? Thoughts?

by Nate Timmons on Oct 13, 2011 5:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agree... ladies and gentlemen let me introduce... Donald Sterling

Man, just writing that name makes me want to take a shower!!!
And, sadly wearing the Silver Medal is Robert Sarver

I wish we could “Grandma Slap” Sir Short Arms/Deep Pockets and shake him back to reality. But I fear he’s more enamored with the shiney objects in St. Louis and North London and regards the Nugs the same way he regards the Avs… a means to fill the stands, parking lots and lines to buy nachos & beer.

I so sincerely wish I was wrong but fear I am not!!!

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"

by the word on Oct 13, 2011 6:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

I still don't get it

How can so many people bad mouth the owner when he has repeatedly gone over the luxury tax to keep the team competitive? If he was cheap, would he have paid for Harrington? Would he have paid for K Mart or Billups? Sure, he does shy away quite a bit and has short changed the Avs, but as far as numbers go, he has not been cheap in the slightest when dealing with the Nuggets.

NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!

by Army of Nugs on Oct 14, 2011 8:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

No

Everyone calls him cheap. The Nuggets have routinely been near the top in spending for the past few years, yet he is somehow cheap. We wont spend as much as the lakers, but that doesnt make him cheap. I would like to see someone from here spend $70M+ a year, every year, and then let people call you cheap. Oh, and he has about $70M in his soccer team, I would guess around $50M in the Rams, and quite a bit in the Avs as well. That does not constitute as cheap.

NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!

by Army of Nugs on Oct 14, 2011 11:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

You are spot-on, AON!

Gotta spend to contend, I say! You also have to know it’s always a gamble…

"All you fuckers who think we won't be good anymore, fuck you" - GK
Afflalo is Boss.

by love4nuggets on Oct 15, 2011 4:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

When was G Wallace a FA?

He was TRADED, not signed. Based on Harringtons numbers the year before, it should have been a decent signing, but foot problems and our depth makes us hate him. Also, Stan being cheap, if this was true, would he have offered a more than generous contract to Nene? or keep AAA? If he wanted to be cheap, he could, but he genuinely wants to WIN, and doing that means spending and he is almost always over the luxury tax. We don’t have big name free agents because we don’t have the same desire factor as cities like miami, new york, and los angeles. I know when a big name hits again that Stan will pony up his pocketbook and make an offer because he does want that Finals trophy in the Pepsi Center.

NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!

by Army of Nugs on Oct 15, 2011 9:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

It is not about wiser

Wallace was traded, Harrington was a FA. If they were both FA, Wallace would be the better choice, but at a much steeper price.

NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!

by Army of Nugs on Oct 15, 2011 11:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

You cannot compare the two

It is 2 completely different scenarios. It would be like judging the Felton for Miller trade to LeBron Signing in Miami.

NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!

by Army of Nugs on Oct 17, 2011 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Excellent point of view. I wish that would be the case

That way the sincere “try harder” teams would get rewarded and the Donald Sterlings would continue to get their bowl of gruel.
The difference would be the Michael Heisley’s (owner of the Grizz). He wants to spend to win but is leaning towards the dark side.
Rewarding sincere efforts like that would be huge!

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"

by the word on Oct 13, 2011 6:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

You bring up such a huge point about the Luxury Tax

I keep wondering if the effects of the luxury tax has not had a full chance to take effect.

Please note; in 2004 KMart is sign&traded for an obscene 7year max contract. In 2006 the luxury tax rules change to begin penalizing a tax per team per year (rather than the cumulative rule in the past).
If the 2006 rule was in place in 2004, would Sir Stan-ster have pushed for the KMart deal? Maybe/maybe not. But it definitely had a trickle down effect for years. And I fear the singular chance for the Nuggets to contend for a title fell by the wayside.
In hindsight, 2006 was waaaay to early to cut ties to KMart viar the 1x amnesty clause (though back then I wan whole heartedly in favor of it). Timing is everything; because of it sooo many decisions were made, or not made, because of the error that was KMart.

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"

by the word on Oct 13, 2011 6:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting. Very good write up Word

I’d also point out…in lots of cases it’s not the hard ceiling you need to worry about. It’s the floor.

Never give a bad owner the excuse to not spend money. They will take it every time. The cap floor should be within a very close margin to the ceiling…it forces teams to keep the faith with their fans.

I’d submit that teams can apply for a two year “floor amnesty” to clear bad contracts…but the team then must commit to spending in between the floor and ceiling. That’s my idea at least.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Oct 13, 2011 9:12 PM MDT reply actions  

Interesting idea Jeff, not really sure I’m on board with the cap floor being near the ceiling. If teams can win with less (see plenty of baseball teams) then I say they should be allowed to pursue that venture. Or if your team is made up primarily of young players (like OKC for now) then they, by way of rookie pay scale, wont hit that cap floor in all likelihood …

I do share your same fear of cheap owners not spending money, especially if something like revenue sharing were to come into play – so something does need to be done to create parity, but I don’t know if a high cap floor would be able to solve those issues.

by Nate Timmons on Oct 13, 2011 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

The NFL realized it had a problem with teams "going cheap"

when they revised their CBA they put in a provision that all teams must be within 90% of the cap ceiling due to increased revenue (it was collectively bargained with the players). Now, the NFL and NBA are two different leagues…but…

The NHL did a paltry revenue sharing package during their last CBA. Didn’t actually address their problems (much like the NBA is doing now) and two teams are AT the cap floor (one of them is the Avs) while another several teams are near the floor. These teams hover down there because they either have bad owners or they are not getting enough gate receipts.

To your point Nate…look at the Nuggets now. They have seven players under contract (with a payroll estimated between 28 and 35 million after Faried and Hamilton are signed which would bring them to nine) but they will have to spend an additional 10 million to get up to the last proposed cap floor. Does anyone expect them to exceed that? No. Which is where the floor amnesty idea comes in to play. A team who is rebuilding (like the Nuggets) can say, “We would like to be lower than the cap floor for two seasons to clear bad contracts and get our young players in line” then, after those two seasons they would need to commit to spending within say 85% of cap ceiling

This clause accounts for rebuilding…but also assures that the team won’t go cheap forever.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Oct 13, 2011 11:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Why do I feel like if they put a bunch of us Denver Stiffs in a meeting room we could create a much better league? Who is with me?

by Nate Timmons on Oct 14, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'd be in for a debate of points and counter points

I’m not an established contributor here but always a reader.

by remyrems on Oct 14, 2011 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well thank you

Sorry I’m a bit long winded in my responses. I’d love to see more posts like the above on the model going forward.

by remyrems on Oct 14, 2011 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Lets set it up

I will call the western conference players if you call the east

NotWorriedAboutNuggets and Army of Nugs for Co-Head Coaches in 2013!

by Army of Nugs on Oct 14, 2011 8:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

As soon as we are coherent!

Hayo! :)

"All you fuckers who think we won't be good anymore, fuck you" - GK
Afflalo is Boss.

by love4nuggets on Oct 15, 2011 4:04 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

I've always thought that.

There’s alot of basketball savvy folks on here and a few of them could also be GM’s in this league it amazes me the knowledge of Denver nuggets fans some of the best in sb nation and I’m proud to be apart of the stiffs nation.

by tknuckle on Oct 16, 2011 8:32 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions   2 recs

it must be something in the water you denverites drink

Hey, being in NY there is little reason for me to tune in to Stiffs age unless the talkers were intelligent because, frankly, if I wanted unintelligent sports talk, I could just have a conversation with my trained monkey or tune in to ESPN (Excepting Wilbon, Korny and a couple of others)

by sgiustra on Oct 19, 2011 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

Jeff I hear ya ... but:

With the current Nuggets it would be foolish to spend money on the current crop of free agents. Do you want them to ink Jason Richardson to a $40 million deal to fill the cap void?

Lawson, Gallo, and Afflalo will all be due raises soon enough so the Nuggets must keep payroll down to bring those guys back and to give them the teammates they’ll need to be competitive. I do hear your point though – something has to be done to keep teams from just flopping around in mediocrity. Like you, I worry about the AVS becoming the Nuggets. Was listening to the southstands303 podcast with a couple AVS writers and they were basically saying there is no reason to watch the team … would have to see our Nuggets end up there. But I do put a certain level of trust in Masai and Josh to not let that happen.

A cap floor is necessary for sure, but I’d hate to see it handicap teams that are trying to build a smart payroll … Sam Presti style – you gotta feel me on that dawg! (what was that last sentense???).

by Nate Timmons on Oct 14, 2011 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Could they even get to the floor if they want to?

I don’t think the problem will be finding free agents worth the money to get to the floor. It will be finding players who are worth the money and willing to sign in Denver. Nene and Marc Gasol are both worthy of good sized contracts.

Formerly KS and CS

by ThrowItDownBigManThrowItDown on Oct 14, 2011 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Nuggets are both a victim of circumstance and design

The trade gave them space. The Felton trade game them an expiring contract. But JR and Chandler signing in China hurt them. Now the Nuggets HAVE to sign someone to get to the cap floor.

It’s all well and good to have “young/cheap” roster…but this last offesason has bit the Nuggets in the ass.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Oct 14, 2011 4:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

cap floor

That’s more of my worry is that in a free agent class that yields nothing to gain over the current roster. We may be forced to pay someone to meet that guideline. As well harm what we can do in the future. If we get a partial season in it could be bad for us. However next off-season merged might allow the team to build far more quickly. Either way the next “off-season” will be huge.

by remyrems on Oct 14, 2011 9:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agreed Nate

The Nuggets have to be in sit tight mode because we really have no idea what we got until we see the parts working together from scratch.

Luckily, our competitiveness late last season is cause for optimism on a team with roughly a dozen ?s

by sgiustra on Oct 19, 2011 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

oh and a really good sign for us is

how our front office completely bamboozled the NY Knick front office/ownership

Maybe our front office is smart? or we really took advantage of the Knicks “limitations?”

by sgiustra on Oct 19, 2011 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

So far, so good.

I think they deserve a little trust moving forward.

"All you fuckers who think we won't be good anymore, fuck you" - GK
Afflalo is Boss.

by love4nuggets on Oct 19, 2011 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

L4N, perfectly put

It really is a matter of trust.

Trust in players who did pretty well late last year, trust in the front office who (dragging & kicking) managed to pull off a good trade, and, and this is really hard (dont crush me) … trust that GKarl can some how blend this stew of talents together to help make something real good.

by sgiustra on Oct 19, 2011 5:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Uh yuh

THE most important variable in the Nuggets success is not whether Gallo develops, Ty leads, Faried pulverizes, Moz plays tall, Nene returns.

THE biggest variable, or “IF” is whether Karl could coach this talented but young and motley crew.

I say “yes” but my fingers are crossed and I’m not putting u any money. Where are you on this?

by sgiustra on Oct 20, 2011 8:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

I have no idea if this is actually true but

I feel like in a way George’s hands were somewhat tied having Melo around. Of course Melo is a fantastic scorer and is very exciting to watch, but from a coaching standpoint he is a sizable cog to any machine and perhaps one that only fits with certain other cogs of specific shapes. Any sort of tinkering on GK’s part was limited to what worked with Melo.

Now that being said perhaps Im just a jaded fan trying to rationalize not winning the ship during Melo’s tenure.

by InboundingLobPass on Oct 20, 2011 11:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think you give a bit to much crediance to the last few Avs years

Prior to the NHL lockout the Avs were one of the highest payrolls with no requirement of spending. The Nuggets of past years (even last year) we’re over or up to the luxury tax. In fact were high payroll.

I agree the last years of the Avs have been puzzling with the cheaper nature of the team. But I think I realized what set management apart.

They don’t pay for marginal upgrades that don’t result to a larger impact. Right or wrong as it is. Last few NHL off-seasons have yielded no impact free agents. I don’t fault them for that. Could they absorb contracts? Sure. But I’ve not seen any trades/off season players that would give the Avs a quick upswing. Same with the Nuggets.

Nuggets I think adopted the same policy. Hence why after Al Harrington was signed a GM now residing in NY was let go. You could be entirely right they go on the cheap for a year or two. Under the current NBA model I see either the Nuggets have an impact player signing or an impact draft. I think draft might be our only solution. I hold out a glimmer of hope a system change could be favorable to us.

by remyrems on Oct 14, 2011 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Cap ceilings rarely have anything to do with how a team spends

it only affects mega spending teams. I’m saying low cap floors are an invitation to be cheap. I don’t think the people in Minnesota or Milwaukee will be satisfied with their teams under the new cap because they still won’t spend money.

Bad owners are bad owners…that won’t change with a salary cap

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Oct 14, 2011 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't dispute that

Bad owners are bad…

But the Nugs have give some credit that they’ll spend when oppertunity comes about. I do project that they will not repeat mistakes (high over pays for players that don’t set them apart). That part gives me a bit of worry on Nene.

I’d wager that if we see a rebuild the team will go on the cheap and try to build a core from the draft. We won’t see another Kmart like gamble. I have some faith, that can turn quickly. I just think our owner isn’t that bad. Or else we’d have seen a quicker trimming of budget then we did.

by remyrems on Oct 14, 2011 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

You beat me to it

the floor needs to be very close to the cap.

Formerly KS and CS

by ThrowItDownBigManThrowItDown on Oct 14, 2011 10:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

Nice write up

I agree with most of what you wrote, especially the part about the salary cap having a propeller!

by InboundingLobPass on Oct 14, 2011 1:17 AM MDT via mobile reply actions  

#1 Sportscenter Play of the day.

I CANNOT WAIT FOR THIS KID!!!! Actually it’s the only thing bothering me about the lockout right now. :)

"All you fuckers who think we won't be good anymore, fuck you" - GK
Afflalo is Boss.

by love4nuggets on Oct 15, 2011 4:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

yep! I am

locked, loaded and ready to go!

Sorry didnt mean to glorify violence but I dont even know what the firing sequence is.

I am very sad that I dont get to see KF rock some defenseless forwards, dont get to see how youngsters develop like Gallo, Lawson, Mozzy, how vets lead like AAA.

I’m holding on here but I dont like it one bit.

BTW, I dont see how any of my fellow Stiffs could feel any real sympathy for any of the 2 warring parties. My position is that, where I side with one party over the other on some discrete issue, it is only a case of my siding with the lesser of 2 “evil” (exaggeration here) parties.

But neither party looks, well.., heroic, here.

Players need to get a clue about the realities of the NBA, the economy etc and realize that those halcyon days are gone like techies realized their unlimited salad days expired in the late 90s.

Owners have to realize that you cant go from completely spoiling players to 0 just like that. Their proposals also sound unrealistic given what the split and other things were before. Sanity and responsibility can be reached but not in one year.

The CBA should gradually make revenue splits fairer, take into consideration the struggles of small markets, and it should be flexible, contingent on how the league develops. The owners seem to want to undo a bad agreement, for them, in one year and that is not really feasible.

I dont know how I got on this topic when I started with my feelings about our Nuggets but unfortunately we fans are in the middle of this mess.

by sgiustra on Oct 15, 2011 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

After listening to the podcast with Billy Hunter

You’re spot on with most of the assestments of what the union should request. In fact it sounds more like what they offered.

I was very annoyed after listening to the CBS podcast however with Hunter. It seemed like the unions not only acknowledges that they want the big markets to control the league they want it to continue. It just makes me wonder if the model is kept how long would the league sustain?

But a few things I had issue with. In particular cap reform. Injury exceptions aren’t typically utilized because they most commonly occur during the season. Off-season season injury exceptions are few and far between. It’s cut off is November 30th. There also are non transferrable. So you can take on a contract ,but rarely are there single year cotnracts that can be taken. Once the exception goes away you’re as well back liable for the salary cap impact of both players. Buyout without reprecussion will only further strengthen teams with money. If you give the teams the ability to buy out the mistakes, then the teams with higher revenue will buy out said mistakes. See Starbury ala New York. If you put that situation in Denver, OKC, Utah, and Indiana. He would have played his entire contract regardless of the results. Imagine a Dallas team that could buy out Haywood and Marion to be able to add Chris Paul to their core next year. Applying that ruling to tax may not be as impactful. As well could allow teams to cut players out to remain under tax rates.

Opt outs. With the 3-4 year model this seems redudent. Can you imagine if every superstar had 2 year opt outs in this model? If your team starts going .500 you’ll have rampenent rumors.

Far to often OKC and SA are pointed as the exception to the big market rule. But it’s not noted that OKC exists due to hitting on 3 straight lottery draft choices and will endure a tough financial feat going forward of retaining. SA exists because the core was primarily built from 2 #1 picks and then international scouting. Neither model can have a sustained success.

Well thought out. But in the above model, I think Denver is back to praying for the lottery to be generous and will consistently be a mid-tier team 5-10 range. I’m more of the mind set get a hard cap with a 53% revenue split.

by remyrems on Oct 14, 2011 12:19 PM MDT reply actions  

Thunder & Spurs are the same blueprint

Score with the franchise draft choice (Duncan, Durant)
Scout Smart, Draft Smart, Trade Smart
Get the steak, don’t buy the sizzle

Getting a franchise Center… errrr I mean Power Forward, does make it a lot easier to win 4 rings. But ya gotta love the Thunder’s potential

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"

by the word on Oct 22, 2011 4:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

Go Nuggets

Well I got a reminder on my Yahoo page that the Nuggets are playing tonight
at 9:00 PM EDT
.

by TakeFive on Oct 16, 2011 1:34 PM MDT reply actions  

Oh man this is gonna be awesome!

Miller is gonna be in the house! I can’t wait to see how NeĹ„e looks. Maybe Faried will get a few minutes too. JR is sure to impress with some above the rim action. Man the off season went by pretty quickly ; )

goes and makes popcorn

by InboundingLobPass on Oct 16, 2011 7:04 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

Luxury Tax

One way to have it affect the big teams could be to a 2.5:1 tax that is collected and totalled at the end of the season.
The money is then distributed among the teams on a percentage basis, sort of like lottery balls are allocated based on record, based on how little luxury tax each team paid but not how far under the tax threshold a team is.
For teams under the tax threshold, they should receive an equal percentage.

This money can be used for existing or additional player salary and would not count against the cap or is allocated as an additional MLE type of salary cap relief.

Wouldn’t stop the big teams from spending, but would aid smaller market teams to pay a little more possibly… AND the money goes to the players which should increase their “love for the game”.

Just a quick thought on a brain-fried Thursday.

by iamhe77 on Oct 19, 2011 11:35 PM MDT reply actions  

Good Progress / Bad News

Progress and near agreement was being made on the MLE and Amnesty clause

MLE – $5m and 3years…. not bad, even better than what I was proposing as a fair deal

Amnesty – 75% of the amnestied money would fall of the the cap & luxury tax (players still get paid in full)…… I think that’s fair; though I wonder if Orlando would still be motivated to amnesty Arenas if $5.2mm would still count on the cap each of the next 3 years… yeah probably so.

Bad News, Headlines and Tweets only so far, but talks appear to have stone walled on the BRI and no further negotiations planned… Rats!!!

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"

by the word on Oct 20, 2011 5:40 PM MDT reply actions  

You know the owners are lying when...

Peter Holt, owner of the San Antonio Spurs is quoted as saying

Holt said he wants the Spurs to have "an opportunity to be competitive and an opportunity to make a few bucks. We all understand that down in San Antonio I’m not going to make the kind of money that New York or LA is going to make. But we’re trying to get it where we have a system where all 30 teams have those opportunities."

Operating as a small market team the San Antonio Spurs have won 4 NBA titles since 1999 and play in an arena built with $145m in public money.

Really the wrong owner to march out on the stage and cry poverty!!!

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"

by the word on Oct 21, 2011 8:01 AM MDT reply actions  

BUT WHY??????????????

HAHAHAHAHA

"All you fuckers who think we won't be good anymore, fuck you" - GK
Afflalo is Boss.

by love4nuggets on Oct 22, 2011 2:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

Man, talk about dagger or arsenic, they are both equally horrid but loaded air pump pointed to my head...

I’d go with the Cavs owner. As much as he is just a great big dump, he did make a full court press to build the team around LeBron; I do give him credit for that.

Losing LeBron I don’t attribute to lack of effort, I attribute to failed effort. The Cavs tried sooo hard to trade for Amare; but Amare just did not want to go to Cleveland. They tried, they failed, no participation ribbons given but I do appreciate the failed effort.

Sterling is just a bitter bitter ugly miserable stain that has infected the NBA for decades.

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"

by the word on Oct 22, 2011 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

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