Melo-Drama
by the word on Sep 7, 2010 12:34 AM MDT
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PrintI wish I could take credit for coining that phrase, but alas. Though I was beaten to the punch it is still fun.
So what direction is the wind blowing this week? It appears towards the Nugs not dealing Melo and trying to get him to sign the extension. Reading between the lines of everybody’s quotes (Karl’s, Ujiri’s, etc.) all point towards getting Melo to sign the extension; but none specifically state to keep Melo for the long term.
Until the day Melo is gone I’ll keep holding hope towards the Kronk’s growing up, become real NBA owners, dedicate towards a title and keep Melo through their action and not rhetoric.
This will require a fundamental change in the Kronk’s thinking… decide to make a move proactively to improve the team rather than reactively because you have no choice in the matter. And the Kronks need to commit to spending money; not necessarily more money this year; but more money in the longer term.
Translation being if the deal is there to make and make the Nugs a title contender the Kronks need to be willing to trade expiring money for a skilled player who has a longer contract that will help the Nugs win a title. That’s the commitment Melo is looking for before he commits… if the Good Ship Melo hasn't already set sail.
Truth be told the Nugs are no longer a title contender. In 2009 they were a legit contender for 2 to 3 months. In the 2008-09 season the 2nd seed Nugs were in fact in a 3way tie for 54 wins (Nugs, Blazers, Spurs) and got the 2nd seed by way of a tie breaker. Last year the Nugs finished the year in a 2way tie with 53 wins (Nugs, Jazz) and got the 4th seed by way of a tie breaker. That's benefitting by circumstance and not being a run away silver medalist in the "Class of the Conference" derby.
The Nugs going into this season are still a team with holes very similar to Nuggets teams in the last several years. The Nugs lack a 2nd legit starting Big, need another legit shooter, the team’s depth is thin and their trading options are limited by a cap structure missing a middle class… nearly everyone is either part of the top heavy have’s or the bottom dwelling have not’s (young player contracts included in that group).
Here is the proposed 2010/11 Denver Nuggets as it is currently constructed. At the moment Harrington should be the 6th man if the Nugs find another big; because Harrington is one of the best 6th men in the NBA for the last several years. I do regard JR & Kmart more as trade pawns rather than actual rotation players. If the Nugs regard either of those as rotation players (especially Kmart) then frankly kiss Melo and the Nugs being a contending team good bye.
Rotation:
SF – Melo
PF – Ideally another big (either PF or C)
C – Nene or another Center & Nene moves to PF
PG – AAA
SG – Billups
6th Man – Harrington
Swing – Open (was JR in the past)
PG – Ty
C – Birdman
PF – Williams (is that really good enough)
So, how to fill the holes? Scour the other teams and see what’s available. I look at Detroit, Cleveland, Charlotte and potential partners. If Indiana changes their direction they could be a partner. A longshot could be Phoenix if their team falls apart and ownership decides to go a different direction. Toronto, Philly could be options plus maybe Milwaukee if they fall backwards rather than forward. The 3 Pacific bottom feeders (Clips, GS, Sac-town) keep getting mentioned but I don’t see much potential with them; GS because they do not have much value to offer (no Biedrins & Ellis are not value acquisitions) and the Clips & Sac-town may not be interested partners if a Denver trade does not include Melo. I rule out the Northwest because division competitors aren’t going to help each other and the Southwest all have playoff contenders except for NO and the Hornets have committed to CP3 so they won’t be doing any housecleaning in the near term. Amazingly Memphis has decided to be a money player for I don't see them dealing at least for a year or so.
Detroit for example I could envision a package deal where the Nugs could get the shooter (Rip Hamilton) they need but would have to take back players they would either need to roll over to a 3rd team such as Prince or take on a big who I would not like on my team (Villanueva). I just don't see Prince as a PF, even in the Western Conference. And playing Melo out of position simply to make room for Prince is bad judgement. Rule of thumb, you don't play your best player out of position; you build the team around him.
I still wouldn’t rule out the Cavs as partners. The Nugs aren’t going to get Hickson or Varejao from the Cavs (because the Nugs aren’t going to offer value for them); but the Nugs could come away with Antawn Jamison which would give the Nugs 3 very skilled SF/PF types to rotate. You could get Jamison straight up for Kmart, actually save a little money get a player more reliable throughout his career than KMart and only have to eat one more year of salary. Regarding the Offense/Defense argument... Jamison may not play strong D; but, KMart can't play defense from the training table and Jamison's overall basketball skills makes KMart's skills look sad.
All deals out there will have some risk. Will career workhorses like Rip or Jamison continue to deliver or will they break down like Kmart and become Training Room All-Stars? It is Ujiri’s job to sift through find what makes sense and identify a deal that will deliver a legitimate NBA player to the Nugs rather than a Roster Sheet Superstar (like DJ Mbenga) and convince the Kronks to Step Up or Shut Up.
In other words... Welcome back to Denver Masai Ujiri and good luck!!!
Write respectfully of your SB Nation community and yourself.
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Which, BTW, the ESPN Trade Machine (for what it's worth) puts the Nugs with Rip & Jamison with 4 more wins
I used the Jamison & Rip scenario as a for instance, but truth be told, I would trade JR & KMart in a heartbeat to get back Rip & Jamison for the Nugs. With this lineup:
Melo(6’8") Jamison (6’9"), Nene (6’11"), Rip (6’7"), Billups (6’3")
Harrington (6’9"), Bird (6’11"), AAA (6’5"), Ty (5’11")
My Nuggets team would beat whatever Nuggets team you can realistically come up with. This team, though not a tall nor as defensively skilled as the Lakers (with Gasol & Bynum) would be smarter and more skilled than any other team they would go up against.
We all know Rip; but Jamison has averaged 18 points, 8 rebounds and 72 games a year during his career. Jamison is also a 2time All Star (2004, 2007) and was the 2003-04 6th Man of the Year. Cleveland will likely want to trim salary without giving up young players and the Pistons would like to be rid of Rip’s longer contract.
That’s a solid, sturdy 9man rotation that at worst would finish 2nd in the West… and I’d give them a fair shake against the 2time champion Lakers. But will the Kronks man up, belly up to the bar and pull the trigger? I guarantee Melo would be on board. This would be Melo’s team and if he pulled it off and won it all. He’d have something LeBron & DWade will never have… the triple crown: NCAA, Olympic & NBA titles. And he would have done it without the “Superteam” status!
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
Like this?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=26bjw7y
I’m not so sure on Rip’s contract, but Jamison would be really nice
Quitter's People United Member #35
No on Jamison
Too old.
Chris Andersen could be in a porno with his 'stache. Too bad he still wouldn't know how to box out.
"I don't want to be like Brett Favre. I don't want to be like Old Yeller, when they take you behind the barn and shoot you." -Hines Ward-
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
Im not such a huge fan of Jamison
Mainly because he is pretty much the same player as Harrington, a tweener forward with a good jumper that can use his waning athleticism to occasionally get to the cup. I’m all for pairing Rip back with Chauncey. Detroit gets a younger more problematic version of Rip back but whether or not they had long terms for JR I feel like they do it for the cap savings alone, pretty much the same story with the Cavs getting K-mart so I definitely think this is a doable trade. My only major concern is it still leaves us really thin and undersized upfront and, like you said, we will struggle with the bigger defensive teams like the Lakers or Houston if Yao is able to get on the court. That said I still think that trade improves the team and gets Melo to sign the dotted line
Why live life on the edge, when you can jump off?
Quitter's People United Member #20
I don't think we can keep using bandaids...
to fix our roster. All we do is turn into Cleveland by taking chances of other veterans. For every Chancey we find, we’re gonna find an AI. For every happy JR we get, we find a bad JR. That’s the name of the game when you try and build through other people’s leftovers. They might even be prime rib leftovers, but at the end of the day, they’re still leftovers.
I truly believe if we’re going to keep Melo, we need a real 3 year plan. Not a “let’s see what comes up and we’re figure it out from there” plan. Sure, you always keep your options over if a true difference-maker like Chris Paul hits the open market, but otherwise you hang onto your assets. Melo and his handlers aren’t stupid, they can see the writing on the wall with this current Nuggets team and then what’s coming up with teams like OKC, Sac, Port, Miami, and a few other young intriguing teams. If he’s going to stay, it’s because of what future promise our team holds, not what 2010 holds as a one-and-done year.
My 3 year plan is pretty simple:
1. Stop taking on veteran contracts. Unless it’s a true difference-maker or a legit big man, don’t be tempted. Jamison looks shiny but he’s flawed underneath and he’s basically Al Harrington, whom we already have. Rip is getting old, might be a good shooter with healthy enough legs but regardless, his defense is atrocious. Even if this means we let K-Mart and JR expire without return, so be it. I’d actually be targeting deals that net us young assets, even draft picks, with those two expirings, not immediate help veterans. I would absolutely try and move Bird and Chancey as well. I believe the three building blocks of this team are Melo, Lawson, and Nene (and I’m fine with Harrington and his contract as a 6th man), everyone else is tradeable.
2. Let Melo lead. With Chancey on this team, Melo can and never will be the real leader. He’s not a true alpha dog and he doesn’t have the winning pedigree in the NBA to sway teammates. He might also be a tad immature (debatable). The best way for Melo to lead is surround him with youth so he feels attached and responsible for these guys. If he can’t take ownership in that type of situation, he never will. As much as I love Billups, I’m willing to trade his last two years to try and keep Melo.
3. Start targeting your FA’s now and tell Melo. We need a real plan going into 2011. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I really believe Al Horford might be in play next summer due to ATL’s financial mess (thanks Joe Johnson!) and I would dump any player on this roster short of Melo for him. If we’re able to move Billups, we have enough money next offseason to throw a max level contract at Horford. Other guys I believe we should target include: Kendrick Perkins, Brandan Wright, Marc Gasol (just to make Memphis match a big contract if nothing else), Greg Oden and Samuel Dalembert (short contract is fine). A lot of those guys are restricted FA’s but it’ll be interesting to see what their current teams do with them.
I might be in the minority but I believe in order to keep Melo we need to sell him on our future, not our present. We can’t keep trying to fix this team like a 3rd grader with a glue stick and construction paper. We need a legitimate plan where we map out our steps for the next 3-5 years, despite how painful it might be this year. If Melo knows about this beforehand and understands what we’re trying to get to, I think he might buy in. If he doesn’t, then just decide if you’re gonna go for one last shot at glory or rebuild while we still have some assets that other people want.
good advice
Melo’s not looking to play with people who are much older than he is, and nobody would be impressed if our cap situation is as inflexible over the next few years as it is now. Who would want to sign on for that?
I agree the goal should be “let’s give ourselves a great chance to win in the next three years” and not “let’s take on huge contracts in order to look like contenders now in a desperate effort to sign Melo”
Double-plus on Horford. He would be a huge gamechanger on this team.
problem is.....if you're going to take on that strategy is 3 three years enough time?
what you guys are saying….if I’m reading it correctly….is a rebuild on the fly. Which sounds good in theory, much harder in practice. It’s intriguing but guarantees mediocre basketball for two of Melo’s three years.
"If there's a new way....I'll be the first in line. But it better work this time...." Peace Sells....but Who's Buying
Proving that you can be gay and not like Madonna, and rock out to Metal. .
Quitter's People United Member # 78
I believe this can work....
because of our contract situations. Most rebuild-on-the-fly situations involve a lot of contracts for a lot of money so you’re destined to trade your junk for someone else’s junk and hope it’s shinier in your garage than in theirs. We can avoid that because we don’t have guys with 3/$40M left or similar types. The worst contract we have is Bird which is 4/$20M which at least isn’t catastrophic. After that the worst we have is Balkman who makes too little for it to even be considered bad. We don’t have to build a world-beater this year so long as we can leverage what assets we do have into the right type of new assets (ie. younger, cheaper, faster). There’s not a ton of examples of getting a real difference maker with just expirings (which is all we have really) but there’s tons of examples of teams willing to move young assets or picks for cap relief. We can provide that.
If my “plan” works at all, 2010 would be a somewhat wasted year. Playoff contender for a 7-8 seed realistically on the backs of Lawson, Melo, and Nene. 2011 would be a return to relevance as a mid seed in the West thanks to one of the pieces we got back in a trade turning out to be good (that’s a leap of faith) + a major FA move (one of the ones I listed above but also a leap of faith). 2012 would realistically be when we look to become a true championship contender as the Lakers will be two years older and our pieces will have two more years to develop and mature. There’s a lot of unknowns and risk involved in a move like this but I’d argue there’s a lot of risk involved in any move we make right now, just due to the Carmelo situation.
leap of faith?!!
+5 mana, Tchizza!
I’m all for this plan, though I’m a little more optimistic about this season and next.
I’ve been smitten with the Horford idea since it’s been brought up, but there’s a decent number of other legit bigs who we could get either by trade or in FA (as you listed) next summer. I think there’s a lot of opportunity for the Nuggets FO to accomplish the goal of immediate relevance without sacrificing our future.
My optimism re: this season – with some luck everyone gets healthy and stays healthy, and with one smart roster move we can push from playoff maybes to darkhorse contenders. That would be a huge success.
One problem
THERE WONT BE A 2011 SEASON. Unless its a 50 game shortened season
Quitters People United
Quitter #96
by The U.N. Fab Five on Sep 7, 2010 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions
It's hard to forecast that...
but you’re right, it’s certainly a possibility. And if that’s the case, we need to prepare ourselves for the new CBA and not getting ourselves into a mess before it assuming there’s going to be a downturn in player contracts/player power. So many variables.
No Playoffs either!
BBBBOOO!!!
Chris Andersen could be in a porno with his 'stache. Too bad he still wouldn't know how to box out.
"I don't want to be like Brett Favre. I don't want to be like Old Yeller, when they take you behind the barn and shoot you." -Hines Ward-
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
I like perspective, though they need to demonstrate today as well as tomorrow
I have doubts that the Kronks would actually commit to team success; but if they did they would have to demonstrate committment today as well as the future; otherwise Melo would belive them… and neither would I.
The Kronks have a whole lot of trust they need to re-build among the fans and the players.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
I just rewatched every game of the WCF in 09....
our perception of what the Nuggets is very skewed. We didn’t lose that series because of a lack of “size”. The Lakers have a huge problem with transition teams (as evidenced by the Nuggets and Phoenix) and for all intents and purposes the Nuggets were clearly the better team through 4 1/2 games of that series. The Lakers size wasn’t the problem. I just looked like the Nuggets ran out of gas in the final game and a half.
The Nuggets issue is Nene is a power forward playing center. He wants to transition and get out on breaks and not bang with the big boys. If the Nuggets found a guy who was inclined to play center (doesn’t have to be someone huge….just a guy who considers themselves a center….remember how well Petro did?) and allow Nene the freedom to play both center and PF would free up the Nuggets alot.
I think everyone needs to rewatch the series against the Lakers….you will see that the Lakers were legitimately scared of the Nuggets coming in to last season and with reason.
"If there's a new way....I'll be the first in line. But it better work this time...." Peace Sells....but Who's Buying
Proving that you can be gay and not like Madonna, and rock out to Metal. .
Quitter's People United Member # 78
that's supposed to say "our perception of what the Nuggets accomplished is very skewed"
"If there's a new way....I'll be the first in line. But it better work this time...." Peace Sells....but Who's Buying
Proving that you can be gay and not like Madonna, and rock out to Metal. .
Quitter's People United Member # 78
I have no doubt in a perfect world
we can still put up a legitimate fight with anybody in the league. We have a veteran PG with championship experience, we have two gifted scorers that can basically do anything they want to with the ball, we have athletic bigs with size who each have their own strengths, and we have a very good bench.
The problem just comes down to age and injuries. Can Chauncey play at a high level for another full year + playoffs? Will we get anything close to the 2008 K-Mart and Bird who are both coming off serious injuries/surgeries? Will JR self combust? Can Ty Lawson take the next step? Will Melo be able to block out all the noise and just focus on basketball? There’s a lot of questions, none of which we can be entirely sure of the answers. In all the answers turn out positive in our favor, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we returned to the WCF.
+1 each
I’m still all for getting a legit starting center (please, more in the Biedrins run and gun mold than the Shaq immovable object mold).
Pleeeease no more Biedrins
We need an on court producer… not a roster stat sheet all star (he’s 7feet but can’t stay healthy, has little to no basketball skills and makes Shaq look like a freethrow machine)
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
In the NFL Bill Walsh (you've heard of him) said the key to success is a 4th quarter pass rush
I believe the key to success in the NBA is 4th quarter rebounding. In the 2009 WCF Nuggets 4th quarter rebounding shriveled up and died. It had less to do with Ariza and the bone-headed inbound plays by the Nugs. What killed the Nugs was their inability to stop the Lakers in the 4th quarter because they could not stop them nor get a defensive rebound in the 4th quarter.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
I agree...
What killed the Nugs was their inability to stop the Lakers in the 4th quarter because they could not stop them nor get a defensive rebound in the 4th quarter.
And this is why Gordon and Jamison don’t help the Nuggets.
True, my point about Jamison is I'd rather have him than a poor substitute at PF or C
In a perfect world my starting C would be Noah; but that ain’t going to happen. So I’d rather have Jamison than that Biedrins and Gortat’s or the world.
Jamison is a real life honest to goodness NBA player who has averaged as many rebounds per game through his career (8.1 vs 8.2) as Biedrins; but Jamison is a real NBA player, has real NBA skill, has real NBA smarts, is on the court a helluva lot more than Biedrins (72games/yr for Jamison, 58games/yr for Biedrins) and if Jamison doesn’t work out his contract expires 3 years before Gortat.
I’m not comparing Jamison with Dwight Howard or Amare; I’m comparing Jamison to far inferior NBA bigs that the Nugs would consider trading for.
In the 2009 WCF, Jamison would have helped the Nugs much more than Biedrins would have… if Biedrins was even healthy enough to be on the court.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
Jamison’s 8.1 R/G is in 36.8 mins. Biedrins 8.2 R/G is in 24.1 mins. Big difference.
Also, I think you’re overlooking the point of having Biedrins. It’s not really to compare Biedrins to Jamison, but to compare Biedrins/Nene to Nene/Jamison, and to a lesser degree, Nene/K-Mart. The entire point of bringing in Biedrins is so Nene can slide over and play his more natural PF position. Adding Jamison would just give us another PF to go with our hoard of PF’s but no C’s. You say you’re comparing Jamison to far inferior NBA bigs but not all bigs play the same position or the same style. That’s a big difference. I think the combination of Biedrins/Nene would have very comparable stats to Nene/Jamison but I also believe they’d be FAR, FAR superior defensively.
I clearly understand Biedrins’s faults as a player. His range is about 3 feet on a good day. He can’t shoot free throws. He likes to hurt himself. However, his positives match up pretty well with what this team needs. His range being 3 feet is a good thing to me as he never even bothers taking jumpshots (I’m looking at you K-Mart) and we have enough scorers. A center who’s career FG% is .603 makes me very happy. All he does is stand under the hoop, dunk or tip in the ball, rebounds at an extremely high rate (one of the best in the NBA), and he’s a decent shotblocker. Perfect for what we need next to Nene. Also unlike Jamison, Beans is still quite young, he’s only 24, so there’s certainly still room for growth there.
+1
The guy was a 10/10 Machine two years ago at the C position. Nene would bump his reb stats up +1, maybe 1.5 just from the switch, 1-2FG%, 2-3points would be my prediction. He would go from 14-7.5 to 16-9 on 60%FG. big difference, he would be in the all-star conversation, his confidence would skyrocket, etc. Amare is in the east, and I think Zach Randolph was a one timer. Beadrins isnt my favorite, Emeka Okafor is, but he is available and very good, I think it would be crazy not to get him.
well done on that sir
You’ve sold me on Biedrins with that. I would love to see him next to Nene. He is a true center we need and I like that. Only thing I would be concerened about is his chemistry with the rest of the team I find it a bit difficult seeing him fitting in as a nugget and chemistry is very important in a team. does he have any tatoos? haha
true
That comment also made me definitely feel a lot better about trying to get Biedrins.
And it’s good to see some more Nuggets support below the Equator.
Nuggets are quite popular over here
New zealand and Australia really take to the exciting style of play by the nugs. That and we absolutely love Colorado! But you can thank Carmelo for the overseas exposure to anyone who undervalues his importance. I wish I could see more of their games though this sites the closest I get to the Nuggets really
Not so sure on Rip or jamison
But Biedrins and Gordon, now that I could do.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=23wrmow
We get Beidrins, Wilcox and Gordon for Kmart and Jr.
I have a tough time buying into Gordon on this team and whether Detroit would even be willing to move him for the sake of moving him. I think they’d have no problem dumping Rip (love to probably) or even Villanueva due to their depth at the forward spots, but I would imagine they’d want some return on Ben. I’m also not crazy about Gordon on this team because of defensive and usage issues.
if GS is willing to just pawn off Biedrins for expirings, I’d be all over that as I think he still has quite a bit of value in this league and specially, to our team. As long as we don’t get stuck with Ellis too.
Gordon yes, but Biedrins... really? why?
He’s limited basketball wise and he can’t stay healthy.
How is he better than a proven workhorse who’s been an all star, 6th man award winner and whose contract ends 3years before Biedrins?
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
My reasoning
First off, Gordon has 3 years left, Biedrins has 4 so there’s only 1 year difference in years left on contracts.
I just don’t see how Gordon can possibly fit with this team. He can’t be paired with Lawson unless you’re ready to see the most defensively-abused backcourt in the NBA. Even paired with Billups we’re still small. And Gordon can’t play PG, at all so that’s not an issue. Also, his usage rates are pretty high and he doesn’t get to the line. The Nuggets already have tons of scorers who can’t play defense, why would we want another one who’s undersized on top of it?
Biedrins, for all his faults, does two things very well and one thing decently well. The two things he does extremely well are shooting a high percentage around the basket and rebound, both things the Nuggets can use. He also blocks shots at a decent enough clip. Most importantly though, Biedrins allows Nene to move to his more natural and probably more productive position of PF.
In a vacuum, I’d agree Ben Gordon is a better player than Biedrins. However, he doesn’t fit this team better.
If you want to talk about abused
See Nene. Beans would stop that. Do you really think Rip is a better defender than Gordon at this point, let alone three years from now? Gordon> Jr on both O and D. Also, why does it matter if our backup SG is a bad defender, we have All-d material at starting SG, who is big enough to play spot minutes at SF.
Fair point about Gordon
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
i can see the argument about Rip, but the Jamison argument is real naive (not meaning to offend anybody).
There’s a time to step away from the ESPN wannabe stuff and focus on real life what does a player do on the court.
Jamison is a legit NBA player. He’s a workhorse and he’s delivered… year in and year out. He’s a real NBA player and not a training room all-star.
KMart can’t say that, Biedrins can’t say that. Some are pretenders… Jamison is a legitimate professional.
And, his contract expires after next year rather than in 4 years.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
Why would we possibly want Jamison...
when we have Al Harrington? They the exact same type of player.
You keep pointing to who the better players are and I don’t disagree at all but you’re making all these judgments in a vacuum. You’re not considering the team that’s already in place.
You can either have 2 legit NBA players with similar skills
or get a 2nd player who can’t play blind.
I’ll take the multiple players with comparable and legitimate NBA skills. Harrington & Jamison can both play PF. Jamison is a much more proven and reliable NBA player than KMart. Jamison stays healthy, KMart cannot.
If you can’t get a real NBA quality Center, I’d rather go with 2 NBA All-Star quality PF who can also play SF and play alongside Melo and get by with Nene & Bird rather than bringing in some hack that can’t play dead
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
All-Star quality?
Is this 2007 and I forgot where I am? And did Al Harrington suddenly get really good? I’m confused.
Jamison has been an All Star and continues to perform at the same level he has his entire career
Harrington is exactly what he’s always been; one of if not the best 6th man in the league. Harrington also has performed at the same consistent level his entire career.
Harrington’s limitations is he’s really not big enough to be a true PF and he’s really not skilled enough to be a true SF. So when he starts at one or the other his game isn’t as good.
Whenever he’s been the team’s 6th man, he has excelled. That’s THE role for him in the NBA and would be the best role for him on the Nugs. But if the Nugs don’t have a suitable starting PF then Harrington will have to start.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
Why do I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone?
Let me tell a story:
Team X has a superstar SF. It also has a borderline All-Star PG. It has one above-average big man and a couple of older, injury-prone big men. The team also has a good defensive SG to round out its starting lineup. Management hasn’t really spent too wisely so the team is well over the cap with only one young player that can be regarded as an asset. However, management is desperate to keep its superstar SF who will be a FA at the end of the year. Management has decided that another move or two will be the difference in not only winning a title but also keeping their superstar SF. Moves to put them over the top have been made in the past but this time they’re confident they’ve hit it perfectly… trading for a stretch 4 who’s been very productive over his career. Granted, he’s getting pretty old, never been on a real winning squad, and he’s being well paid but his game should hold up reasonably well. Success is imminent.
No, no vacuum
The Nugs the talent and depth. And I am considering the team in place… the team in place isn’t good enough because selective players either aren’t good enough, mature enough or cannot stay healthy.
JR will never grow up… replace him
KMart will never stay healthy… replace him
What am I missing?
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
Err..
You want to replace JR Smith with Ben Gordon and Kenyon Martin for Antwan Jamison from what I’ve gathered here, at least out of the options presented here.
So our 9 man rotation is:
Guards: Billups, Lawson, Gordon, Afflalo
Fowards: Melo, Jamison, Harrington
C: Nene, Andersen
The team would be entertaining, I’ll give you that. We may as well rehire Paul Westphal and just hope for 168-164 type scores.
Not bad
but the money doesnt work I dont think. Here is my idea:
Kmart +Jr for Maxeil, Gordon, Beans.
How is: CB1, AAA, Melo, Nene, Beadrins
worse than: CB1, AAA, Melo, Kmart, Nene
And how is this not a HUGE improvement
Ty3, Ben, Harrington, Bird, maxeil
vs
Ty, Jr, Balkman, Harrington, Bird
Okay, The Word, how is Rip a better player than BG?
Look at these stats, and then tell me Rip is better… And if you still think that then who would be the better player, Rip as a 35YO, or a 29YO Gordon?
How? Gordon may be a younger player but RIP has proven he's a better player throughout his career
Rip is bigger, better and smarter than Gordon. RIP has proven himself to be a winner through his career.
Gordon is a pure shooter and is younger. That’s all I can give towards Gordon. He’s a PG sized SG with no PG skills and has not proven himself to be a player committed to winning.
Both players have similar career averages as players though Rip has a little better collection of numbers in the non-scoring stats; plus he’s bigger and Gordon has never and won’t ever play D.
That’s a great debate!!! Do you take a better player at the end of his career or a younger player? And I do like Gordon.
To me the tiebreaker really was more just it was more realistic the Nugs could get Rip for just expiring contracts. Gordon would take more to get and I’m not as sure Detroit would get rid of him.
Like you wrote I think the tie-breaker is the Nugs would not be able to get the 29yo Gordon without giving up a lot to get him. Rip is older but he’ll give at least 3more good years.
Fair enough?
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
I would take Gordon
And I think he could be had for just expirings. He is smaller, but I think he is better all around. Also, 32yo rip is NOT the way to convince melo to stay if that is the goal. Gordon is proven, thats why DET gave him that paper, because he carried both the bulls and his college team down the stretch. With beans and gordon, we would be Laker killers. Look at the matchups Cb1>Dfish, Kobe gets stopped by AAA, Artest stops melo, Nene dukes it out with Pau, and Beans holds his own against bynum. Then Ty, Gordon, harrington and bird come in and run them out of the building. Obviously, Pau, Bynum, odom > Nene, Beans, Harrington, but… Nene Beans Harrington > Nene Kmart Harrington. BG>Jr.
I dont think rip has even a good full year left, that would be a bad acquisition.
what do you reckon?
We should really try to get Jerebko, but I don’t know if the Pistons are willing to give him up.
I came up with this in a hurry.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3a38sz8
If Melo stays...
You can kiss JR goodbye (thank god!)
But we will keep Kenyon until trade deadline to deal for a big and the other team will most likely buy him out and Denver can resign (aka like the Big Z situation last year).
word is Melo likes Kenyon so for those who think if Kenyon stays Melo leaves, that’s not it at all. The best case would be like I said before. Trade Kenyon at the deadline only to resign him again.
Good Point on JR, him & Melo have supposedly really drifted apart
I wonder as well about KMart. If Melo was sincere about wanting a dedicated committment by the Nugs he’d have to know that would mean getting rid of KMart.
You can’t be like the Yankees and just print more money; you have to operate within the framework of the NBA CBA; no matter how bad it is.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
Good article on Birds' Rehab
http://www.nba.com/nuggets/features/andersen_recovery_20100908.html
"If there's a new way....I'll be the first in line. But it better work this time...." Peace Sells....but Who's Buying
Proving that you can be gay and not like Madonna, and rock out to Metal. .
Quitter's People United Member # 78
Probably... and that's not a good thing. he'll be at risk of running himself down again
I’ve always thought Birdman is the perfect 4th big. He comes in and hustles full tilt for his 10minutes a game. But if he plays too much then his limitations become exposed.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals." Butch Cassidy
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
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