where does chauncey rank amongst the greatest nba point guards?
howdy nugg fans...
i visit the dime magazine website pretty frequently. in between blowing kobe and lebron through print they occasionally find time to focus on some of the other players in the league. yesterday they ran an article on chauncey and where he ranks amongst the great nba points. if youre bored at work or on the john looking for something to read, this article and the following comments will help you kill a few minutes.
http://dimemag.com/2010/03/where-does-chauncey-billups-rank-among-the-all-time-great-pgs/
this will probably be covered in the nuggs/wolves recap, but jrs 360 dunk off the oop from billups was ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING. check it out here...
http://dimemag.com/2010/03/j-r-smiths-incredible-360-alley-oop/
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Sick Dunk
I remember he did something similar a couple of years ago against Dallas. He didn’t dunk the ball but he did a 360 in the air after the catch and laid it in. I was at the game, sitting about 10 rows behind the basket. It was nice!
I was at that game against dallas too
and when i got home i promptly turned espn on to see if it made the top plays list
7 straight conference finals appearances as the leader of 2 different teams
That puts him ahead of Nash and Kidd in my opinion. I am an anti stat guy though. Nash and Kidd put up big numbers but don’t win, enough said.
I would put Thomas, Magic, and Stockton ahead of him for modern day players. I am not too sure about old timers though as I am in the camp that most old timers couldn’t hold a candle to the players of today. Todays players are absolute freaks and the best athletes in the world. Old timers were competing with American born players almost exclusively and the weight room wasn’t nearly as important.
So, I am sure there are old timers out there that deserve spots ahead of Billups so I cannot accurately rank him all time. However, I can say that is the 4th best point guard in modern times. 7 straight conference finals appearances with 2 different teams, a championship, an NBA finals MVP, and his clutch performances rank him there for me.
Remember this about Chauncey
He was a 5th option on all of his teams (maybe 4th option on Minnesota playing SG next to the Great Terrell Brandon) up until going to Detroit. However, his play since then has been better than Jason kidd’s. Nash was also a late-bloomer, and I know that his crazy fast pace inflated his stats, but just look at the stats of the players after playing with Nash. If there was a universe of NBA point guards, Nash and Billups would be on the same high space-time plane, with Kidd floating off to the side. He’s just such a different point guard than Billlups.
We should open a debate over whether or not Fat Lever was better than Billups. From looking at his stats, Lever seemed to be Jason Kidd before Jason Kidd existed, except with more scoring. In his prime, around 17 ppg with 7-8 rpg and 9 apg. With that being said, Billups > Kidd, but Lever…
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
""He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"We're just tough, man" - Chauncey Billups
A lot of people around here like to say Lever was better than Billups
But I don’t. Not a chance. As I said, stats don’t really matter in basketball.
The comments in that Dime article hurt my stomach
Comments like “It’s about what the public perceives…” and “The east was weak when they won the championship” make it hard to take anyone on that site seriously. What does public perception have to do with winning? What does the east being weak have to do with him winning a championship? Didn’t he play against the WC champs to win the title?
Nash, Kidd, Stockton, CP3, etc never won when they needed to…in the Finals. Nuff said.
detroit beat the 3 time nba champion lakers in 5 games
i do not consider that weak.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
I have followed the NBA for 34 years now . .
And Billups is the best PG ever on the team I rooted for (26 years in PDX and 8 in Denver), so in my mind that puts him ahead of Terry Porter (best PG Blazers history) and clearly better than Rod Strickland. By definition, better than Junior Harrington as well.
Lever was a good basketball player but not really in Billups’ class while the Nugs pace and NBA style inflated his #‘s. Billups’ eff in scoring is pretty impressive – the mix between the the high FTA, high FT% and high 3FGA high 3FGA% is pretty uncommon. Over the last 8 years he is perhaps the most unusual 3pointer/FT shooter in the league. Leadership skills and wanting / taking big shots are also present which adds to his value.
Having said all that, for peak year he is no better than top 20-40 (this is probably his peak year) as guys like KJ, Michael Ray, Gus Willaims had a higher peak; but for overall career I would put in the 10-20 range:
Cousy, The Big O, Tiny, Frazier, Stock, Thomas, Kidd, Payton. Probably Timmy Hardaway and AI.
Nash is up for discussion . .much better offensive but Billups’ D means you don’t have a gaping hole of that end even when you are forced to switch.
So that puts him in the 10-20 range with:
Checks, Cassell, Lenny Wilkins, Terry Porter, Mark Jackson, John Lucas, Derick Harper . . seems about right to me depending on how you feel about all those long lived, productive PGs.
Future: D Williams, D Rose, and possibly Paul are likely to pass him.
Billups on the same level as Cheeks, Cassell, Lenny Wilkins, Terry Porter, Mark Jackson, John Lucas, and Derrick Harper?
I’d have to say he is a few levels above any of those guys…
Sam I Am and Porter are great comps . .
Sam started 690NBA games and played 30,000 minutes. Over that career he averaged 19Pts and 7assist per 36 minutes and career PER of 19.5 and total shooting % of 54%. He played and intergal role on two championship teams (although not as important as Billups) and was the starting PG for two different conference finalist.
Porter started 735 games and played 35,000 minutes. Averaged 16Pt and 7assist over 36 min and was strong defender. PER of 17 and TS% of 58%. Staring PG on two NBA finals teams (second best player on the team) and 1 WCF. Played 120 playoff games.
Billups started 800 games and 29,000 minutes. Average 17pts and 6 assist over 36 min and is a strong defender. PER of 19 and 58% total shooting %. 2 finals apperance (1 MVP) and 133 playoff games and counting.
I’d say he’s gets the nod on them , but that is certainly the right company.
7 conference finals in a row with 2 teams
How bout that one? I imagine there have only been a few players in history who have accomplished that one. He may be the only one…
Yeah.
Chauncey is the only non-Showtime Laker to go to at least seven straight conference finals. Kareem went to eight I believe, which is the highest. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Stop getting worked up over the outcome of something you can't control.
~Anonymous
by billybobjoe22 on Mar 11, 2010 4:34 PM MST up reply actions
Yet he gets verbally shat on by the national media every chance they get
Fuck em though, I know what’s what.
Go to ESPN's NBA section
I can guarantee you that they is going to be multiple “analysis” articles that kiss the l*kers’ ass.
From now on, all of us stiffs should call them the l*kers. No capitalization, with the “a” replaced with an asterisk
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
""He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"We're just tough, man" - Chauncey Billups
This looks about right. I'd also put Chauncey at just outside the Top 10.
Nice post, frontrange.
by Uh on Mar 11, 2010 7:53 PM MST up reply actions
He is in the same class as Kidd and Payton but with his winning ways at the leadership position it vaults him above them
Tim Hardaway doesn’t deserve mention alongside Billups.
Not yet . .
Open to Billups v Timmy discussion although Timmy was first team all NBA once, 2 times second team, and 2 times third .. Billups only has 1 second and 2 thirds.
Sorry . . not even close to Payton. 9 Consectitive years All-NBA, Dfensive player of the year from the PG position is unheard of . . That guy was amazing.
I have to disagree with some of your statements
Only for the reason that I think that the talent level in the NBA is much higher now than in years past. The players are smarter, and frankly better athletes. I never liked these discussions much because it’s comparing apples to oranges. A lot of those old school players were ahead of their time, but behind the current times.
In his prime Oscar Robertson was an anomoly and down right amazing, but like Gasus said above, the players of yesterday don’t match up with today’s pro athletes. It holds true in every sport. The sports world is ever evolving, and so are it’s participants. For an experiment: Ask yourself if babe Ruth would have had as many runs, RBI’s etc if he were facing Tim Lynsicim and Mariano Rivera? Would Bart Star have won a Superbowl if he had Julius Peppers and Dwight Freeny hounding him?
PER’s don’t count when players play in different eras. So the answerable question is, if CB is compared to players at the same position during the same time frame, would he come out at or near the top?
by Joelsopinion on Mar 11, 2010 2:48 PM MST up reply actions
Ha Ha
You are comparing All-NBA and DPOY awards of one guy versus another. I guess you think that shit has any relevance to a players greatness. I don’t, that shit is a joke and always will be as long as the media is voting for it. LOL!
Horry is not a top ten PF of all time . .
Steve Kerr is not a top ten PG of all time.
Playing for winning teams is part of the answer, not the entire answer.
Paul Silas was a leader who played in 163 playoff games
won 3 NBA titles . . does that make him better than Dirk?
Do you think Karl Malone is not a top five PF of all time bcs he didn’t win in the finals?
I think Malone was great and played in the current age of basketball
He was on a lot of winning teams but never won the championship. I don’t have a problem with that. What I do like though is when the undisputed leader of a team leads them to a championship as well as 7 straight conference finals appearances. Silas was probably under rated but I don’t hardly know anything about him so I doubt he was the real leader of winning teams.
It isn’t like Horry even really mattered much on his teams. Bill Russell on the other hand won a ton and he was the undisputed leader of his team. MJ as well. Billups may not have all the championships but 7 years in a row of conference finals appearances as the leader of his team is more than enough for me to classify him as better than guys that put up huge stats without winning or got acolades from the grossly biased press.
Being a good player on good teams is important, but, getting stuck on average teams
or running into MJ shouldn’t be a determining factor . .
Let me give you another example: DJ . .starting PG on 9 conference finalist and five NBA finalist on two different teams, MVP of the finals in 1978 . . but, I would rather have Billups over him. (althougjh I wouldn’t be surprised if some Boston fans disagree)
Sometimes chance plays a role . .if Det hadn’t traded us Billups, he wouldn’t have that 7 in a row.
I think you have to put Dennis Johnson in any conversation about best point guards of all time
Winning should be more important at the point guard position than any other. The point guard is the quarterback. Has the ball by far the most and is in control of the offense and often the defense. I get your point but I’m still putting Billups as a top 5 point guard of all time.
Also
You have to put Billups ahead of DJ because Billups is the clear leader of his teams whereas DJ clearly was not.
hardaway was way better than billups
throwindg a tv monitor 2 hands over the head onto the court. timmy was old school too. none of this flat screen modern era stuff.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
DJ was the clear leader in Seattle . .
Sikma, JJ, Downdown Freddie Brown and Gus Williams compared to Wallace, Wallace, Rip, Tay in Det. That seems like a similiar comp.
In Boston . . .well I can only hope we are comparing ’Melo to Bird someday.
Bird was much better at rebounding than Melo is today
Not to mention that Bird was a 6´9" smooth shooting SF in a time when there just weren’t any players like him.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
""He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"We're just tough, man" - Chauncey Billups
Well how about a PG who started in 3 finals in four years . .
Lead his team in assists and played for two different teams in those finals?
Would that make him a great ball player?
On another note, doing 7 in row is kinda cool but why is that better than doing 5 in row and 2 in row? Or 7 in ten years? Or in CB case 7 in 14 years? Also is it better to play in 7 conference finals or 4 Championships?
All I am saying that winning is tool of measurement, but not the only measurement.
BTW . .the player above is Tom Hendersen (Wash, Wash, and Houson), never to be confused with an all-time great.
I doubt Tom Henderson was the leader of his team
I don’t know though, like I said with the old timers, I really don’t care for the brand of ball and I don’t think many of them would even play in the modern day game.
I hate(d) Horry with every bone in my body
He flopped, he was able to get away with some physical play that certainly would be called by the refs had he not been a l*ker/Spur. He bandwagoned his way to 7 NBA championship rings, and was a bigtime slacker except in the last few minutes of close games.

Haha, take that from the Mailman!
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
""He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"We're just tough, man" - Chauncey Billups
I think all-star in bunk and yes there is political element in awards ballots . .
Still . . if a player is thought of as one of the 2 or 3 best guards in league for 9 straight years . . that has meaning. For nine straight years Payton was viewed as one of the best three PGs in the league (Kidd had a similiar run). Even today in Billups best year, it is still not clear that he is better than Paul / Williams or for that matter Rondo / Nash / Parker / Rose (although I think he has had the second best season of any PG this year behind Williams).
If you don’t believe, go watch the tape of Seattle vs MJ in finals or Kidd vs Boston in the 2002 ECF. Those guys were really, really, good for a long time. Doesn’t make Billups chopped liver, but you ain’t being fair to them.
You can have a different opinion, but just bcs you say something is so, doesn’t make is so. Find something to support your argument.
Joelsopinion:
The question was where does Billups rank in all-time gaurds and you have to consider the environment those players played in. The question wasn’t could Billups dominant Cousy (‘cause I think he could), but that doesn’t mean he had a better career than Cooze.
The leader of the team in 7 straight conference finals appearances with 2 different teams
That is all I need brother. I don’t need media perception and advertising of a player to make my opinion. I think Payton was great and I think Kidd is great. When I am talking great I mean damn near the best in the world. I would give CB the nod over either of those guys though due to him being such a great leader at the leadership position on the court. That is all I need my man!
I read the question right
Best of all time is not really quantifiable. You just said CB could dominate Cousy. So is CB not better than Cousy? Why would CB be place beneath Cousy? Exactly it’s not a fair comparison, and therefore has no valid answer. Back to my original point, the question and debate are bogus.
It’s all very subjective and full of opinionated ideas none of which are right.
by Joelsopinion on Mar 11, 2010 4:05 PM MST up reply actions
I think CB was better, but hasn't had a better career (yet)
There is a lot of mental mastrabution in the world . . your can argue with facts and without facts and still have opinions. Sometimes people like to think about it . . I thought it was interesting to think about CB compared in a historical context. You can choose not to.
Of Course he could dominate Cousy… because Cousy is like 87years old.
In comparable primes, yes Billups would have his way with Cousy…. but, Cousy would also make Billups look pretty bad too
"I was here for Brown, Moe, Westhead & Bernie... what do you bring to the game?"
"Maxie Miner Rules"
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
I'm fine with Melo getting that award
or Nene, or JR, or Bird, or Kenyon, or Ty, or AC, or Balkman…
I think two things are worthy of note … in a “star” league, Chauncey has never (until perhaps recently) gotten the benefit of “star” calls. And Chauncey wasn’t even really considered a “true” point guard until he got to Detroit. So even to think of him as one of the greatest of all times at his position, is amazing in itself.
Oh, and he’s not done, either.
Yeesh…. lots of Billups haters on there.
by InboundingLobPass on Mar 11, 2010 8:46 PM MST via mobile reply actions
cb1 is a hall of fame combo guard
statistically billups assists numbers will never reflect his true passing talent. chauncey gives any team what it needs. the teams he has played for always needed his scoring. the best example of his greatest pass ever happened last season at the pepsi center against toronto. the raptors were blown out by 40 points and the toronto coach was fired the next day. cb1 had the ball in the corner at the base line, by the toronto bench, he was double teamed and trapped. he threw a no look behind the back pass to kmart in the paint for a 2 handed slam. i had walked into the arena and was standing next the toronto bench just before the play. i was standing behind the behind the back pass. there was not a single person in the entire pepsi center that anticipated that play. it was not an attempt to show off or to be fancy. it was the only play cb1 could have made without turning the ball over.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
Nice to see local objectivity is alive and welll
riiiiight….
simply put, Billups is a great great great player and the greatest ever to come out of Colorado (sorry Michael Ray).
But…
Billups is not better than Fat Lever (if you didn’t see Fat don’t even pretend to argue)
Fat Lever is not one of the greatest PG of all time
Fat Lever (as much as a I love him) is not a Hall of Famer
Billups is not a Hall of Famer
Really, the world did exist before ESPN was invented.
Billups probably top 10 for the last decade… but other than Kidd & Nash, this wasn’t a stellar decade for point guards in the history of the NBA.
"I was here for Brown, Moe, Westhead & Bernie... what do you bring to the game?"
"Maxie Miner Rules"
"Remember the Alamo", "Remember the Maine", "Remember the Hunter Trade"
"Contenders commit to building a champion; pretenders end up getting bit right on their pick axe"
Lever deserves the hall of fame JUST AS MUCH as Jason Kidd does
Is this “the word” guy a Nuggets’ fan? Because he seems to have attempted to surplant my role as pessimist.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
""He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"We're just tough, man" - Chauncey Billups
That being said Billups probably is better, but the difference is leadership.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
""He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"We're just tough, man" - Chauncey Billups
I saw Lever . .
And I disagree . .
1) Lever’s peak years last only ~6 years long, wherein CB is at 10 a counting
2) Lever was a high vol player but not a high eff player and honestly, I was never worried he would beat me when he played for the other team (’cause I was raised in PDX and the Blazers drafted and traded him), now Billups is player you have account for as far as controlling and dominanting the game in the fourth quarter against the quality teams.
3) Statistically despite playing in a faster, less defensive era, Lever’s stats don’t compare favorably to Billups, he shot worse, shot less, got to the line less (and shot a lot poorer from the line), they had similiar assist rates. He did get a ton of steals and rebounded very well (but part of that was by design . .if your lining up Blair and Danny at center, your gaurds are going to find a few balls). Remember that TR Dunn was also one of the best rebounding gaurds in the NBA.
4) Since those Nugs played so fast ~107 poss per team per game compared to ~95 team per game . . there was 20-25 more rebounds in play and more shots, more assists, more steals, more everything. Lever was a good, perhaps great basketball player but not in CB’s class.
You could argue that his peak in 1986-1990 (18pts, 9reb, 7ass, 2.5sts) was better than Billups peak and maybe that is true, but as far as career accomplishments, I think CB is well in front of him.

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