Dominant Big
The Case for a Big
Looking at the Nuggets going forward I had a couple thoughts. First item to deal with is the components of a championship team. Things needed are a good coach, good bench, either two or three stars and lots of good role players or five guys who are top ten at their position (Pistons). Also necessary is management that is willing to spend money, a savvy intelligent GM who knows the business and of course, most importantly, a dominant big man. Previous champions for the past several years have these pieces.
The Nuggets have a hard choice going forward. Carmelo has made a decision to leave and is forcing the Nuggets to try to rebuild on the fly or tear it down and build through the draft. To answer this I think we should look at the team that has done the most with the same attributes the Denver has. In this scenario I am leaving out LA, NY and Miami specifically because they are regarded as top free agent destinations and are located on the coast. In other words not a good comparison.
In January of 2000 a new owner purchased a NBA team. He choose to get actively involved with his team and decided that his team wasn’t going to rebuild through the draft but go the free agent, good trades route to build a contender. He spent plenty of money building a good scouting system and did all the little things that needed to be done.
This team also had a nine-time all-star who won the MVP in 06-07. Management had no problem spending big money to surround this all-star with great players, always willing to overpay to bring in talent. Management worked hard to bring in a dominant big man but never quite succeeded. A couple times they brought in decent centers but never good enough to dominate a playoff series.
The team of course is the Mavs. I believe every team in the league would like to add a 9x all star power forward and MVP. I believe most fans would trade owners in a heart-beat with Cuban, an unconventional thinker who cares and is willing to spend big money. The question, after all this team has done right, is how have they not won a championship? Those who follow the NBA closely know the answer, a dominant big man. Not just serviceable, not a Stiff, an honest to goodness dominant big who plays close to the rim. Dirk doesn’t count.
I don’t really care if we rebuild through the draft or on the fly. What is absolutely necessary is that we have to acquire a dominant big. However that happens so be it but it’s the only thing I care about. Until that happens we are wasting our time if a championship is the goal.
Those of you interested in what exactly a dominant big makes please read on. Right now Nene ranks in the top five of NBA centers in PER. Is he dominant? No. Is Marc Gasol dominant? No. Dominance has to include defense and the ability to intimidate opposing teams at the rim. It includes the ability to play man to man D on the other teams center so they don’t have to double. Okur, Miller, (even in his prime) Dirk and Bargnani don’t count because they play away from the rim. Duncan and Shaq, although playing well right now, will not be able to keep up this level of play forever(I think). Gortat, Bogut, Gasol, Okafor, Nene, Noah, Lopez, Horford, Hibbert, Perkins and Chandler are all critically lacking in one or more of the following areas; strength (ability to hold position or move towards the basket), size, offensive ability, foot speed or leaping ability (shot-blocking).
The only centers that have the physical tools to be dominant who are in the league right now are Oden, Howard, Bynum, Yao. In my opinion McGee and DeAndre Jordan, have the potential and size to be dominant someday. The problem in acquiring these big men is that everyone else wants them and the teams that have them don’t want to give them up. Also injuries plague these guys and the final straw is that often times these big men don’t come with an appropriately sized attitude and don’t want to dominate. (Nene, Jordan)
My premise is simple. More than a good coach, more than draft picks, more than cap space, more than multiple stars the one thing the Nuggets have to start with is a dominant big man. Do whatever it takes and go get one.
Write respectfully of your SB Nation community and yourself.
45 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Counterpoint
Boston didnt have a dominant Center type like you are saying. They had a good PF and a strong Defensive C, perkins. By the stage a Noah, type could play C if you had an appropriate PF.
True but Garnett is almost a dominant big by himself and handled big man offense.
I would rate Boston in the Pistons mold. Top ten player at every position. Also Perkins is very close to dominant when fully healthy.
Also with Perkins Bostons’ 1 – 4 could create their own offense. Most teams can’t say that of their players.
Can't disagree on the premise too much
And I agree that if a championship is the goal, that first and foremost a dominate big should be a top the list. But I don’t think it’s an absolute must. I’d argue that as long as you have a few great defensive minded bigs, you’re fine as long as you have all the other pieces. But this in a way is kind of why I want Favors, because I know how important bigs are and how we’ve needed one for so long. If he could turn into a dominant defensive force in the paint, all we’d need to do it build around him and Ty to make a push for a title.
Know when to fold em'.
Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of Denver Stiffs.
I got people nicknaming their kids after me.
I'll reserve the optimism for the 17-win seasons; now is the time for scrutiny.
Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!
I've been watching Favors every chance I get,
and I don’t believe that at 6-9 he can be a defensive force in the paint. Unquestioned potential, but not dominant. Has a great motor though and I like his athleticism. Also love his maturity and the way he conducts himself.
Favors
also has extremely long arms, with a 7’4" wingspan and a 9’2" standing reach. I feel like defense and rebounding is more about passion and effort, and Favors has as high of a motor that I’ve seen in a while. He’s also strong enough to hold his position in the post.
by higgyhoops12 on Dec 30, 2010 1:37 PM MST up reply actions
Good lord it's slim pickins on bigs these days.
I actually think Marc Gasol kind of sucks, even when you compare him to Nene. I would actually like to pick up Javale McGee as he’s crazy long and athletic. That’s about the only big I feel has huge upside and isn’t playing for the local leading surgeon most of the time. I would probably be ok with Bogut or Noah, but doesn’t seem likely. Either way I would want to keep Nene as our starting PF because I just don’t think it’s going to get any better than him.
Agree
I don’t get the deal with Marc Gasol, he’s super soft and slow…. not a good fit on our team.
I would however LOVE to get McGee, but I doubt he’s goin anywhere. Looks like Wash. is actually trying to move Blatch but not McGee
hows this
Washington is said to be shopping Andre Blatche… how bout we say we’ll take him if the give us Mcgee too
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=288ruem
Den gets Blatche and Mcgee for Anderson/Balkman/Ely
okay, so we need a dominant big
but so does every team. the list you mentioned of bona fide dominant bigs is ridiculously short: oden, bynum, howard and yao? i wouldn’t go anywhere near oden or yao, howard is forever untouchable so bynum is the only one on that list that is even possible. so do we trade melo for bynum? what is his contract situation?
easy to talk about needing a big, but which one is actually gettable? would brendan haywood count? mavs would surely unload him. of course he is not dominant. but to get a dominant big, you have to go through the draft, right? with such a hot commodity.
Think of this...
Trade Melo to NJ for Favors, Murphy, and a couple good firsts…
Hopefully use one of the firsts to get Jared Sullinger. He’s a man among boys in college basketball, yet he’s only a freshman.
A frontcourt of Nene, Favors, and Sullinger would be by far one of the best front courts in all of basketball.
Sullinger lacks athleticism and height,
If he grows a couple inches we’ll take him otherwise he’s Al Jefferson or Big Baby Davis (gonna be a good player, but not dominant). Also average height of players in league is 6-8. A player 6-9 isn’t going to dominate, no matter how long his arms are.
Err, your argument is anyone under 6-8 can't dominate?
Pack your bags Kobe. Please return your rings MJ.
If you mean big men, I suppose Kevin Love, Blake Griffin don’t qualify.
Or do you mean prototypical size for position? Chris Paul, too short. Dwayne Wade, too short. This game is never-ending.
You’re literally talking about 1 inch. Does that include hair? Sneakers with a higher sole? Padded socks? Was he standing a little on his tippy-toes during the measurement? People get so insanely blinded by measurements, and while I absolutely believe they can tell a lot about a player’s “potential to dominate,” it gets insanely out of hand.
by TChizza on Dec 30, 2010 7:56 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you.
Blake Griffin w/o shoes: 6’8.5" tall, 8’9" standing reach, 35.5" vert.
Kevin Love w/o shoes: 6’7.75" tall, 8’10" standing reach, 35" vert.
Derrick Favors w/o shoes: 6’8.75" tall, 9’2" standing reach, 35.5" vert.
by higgyhoops12 on Dec 30, 2010 11:12 PM MST up reply actions
Uhhh...
Kevin Love can jump as high as Blake Griffin????
by love4nuggets on Dec 30, 2010 11:15 PM MST up reply actions
Sullinger lacks athleticism and height?
While hey may not be able to jump the highest, I guarantee he’s the strongest player out there, and no one is going to move him around in the post. He has a jump shot, and he finishes strong and dunks just about everything.
Favors is actually 6’10.25" with shoes on, and that’s plenty tall to be a dominate big man.
Where do you suggest we find this big man that’s talented and bigger than 6’9"? They don’t grow on trees.
by higgyhoops12 on Dec 30, 2010 10:59 PM MST up reply actions
I like Sullinger a lot
But I don’t know if he can be a franchise big due to lack of elite athleticism, at least from what I’ve seen. Don’t get me wrong, I think he can be a very productive player, but I would set his ceiling at maybe an All-Star game appearance or two, not multiple, and certainly not in MVP discussion. I think he could be an above-average #2 on a contending level team, maybe just a tick below Chris Bosh level. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, that makes for a terrific player, just not “franchise-level” in my personal opinion.
Right,
but how many players are considered MVP caliber? There’s maybe 3-5 each year, and often times they’re the same players over and over again, and they usually aren’t big men anyways.
by higgyhoops12 on Dec 30, 2010 11:43 PM MST up reply actions
That's the vicious cycle of NBA
If you don’t have one of those 3-4 players, you probably aren’t winning a ring. Unfortunately, one of those 3-4 players probably only come out once ever 4-5 years .
And for clarification?
What do you consider a dominant big? A player that rebounds, blocks shots, and plays well with his back to the basket? Or does a finesse player like Dirk count?
by higgyhoops12 on Dec 30, 2010 11:45 PM MST up reply actions
Great question
To me, a dominant big is someone who owns the defensive paint area and has some sort of definitive skill set on the offensive end. I don’t really care how you do it on offense, so long as you’re very efficient (FG%) and you get offensive rebounds.
It’s kind of like that whole “elite” vs. “franchise” argument. I consider numerous big men elite. Dirk, Pau, Bosh, Horford, Love, Stoudamire, etc. I only consider a small handful as franchise. Howard (I waffle on him due to his offensive game), Shaq in his prime, Duncan in his prime, KG in his prime.
For the sake of this argument, I’d probably include all of them as I don’t believe you need a “franchise” big to win anymore. An elite big with a franchise wing, or an elite big with two other elite players can wing a ring.
The problem with this is that then there has to be an excellent coach,
excellent role players and big money spent by a caring owner. I don’t believe Denver can pull all that together.
Starting with a dominant big makes everything easier.
IMO as stated earlier, Dirk doesn’t count.
After this statement
and gleaning a little more from your previous posts, I now realize you’re not looking for a “dominant” big man. You’re looking for a transcendent big man. You’re looking for Duncan. You’re looking for Shaq.
In that case, let me go ahead and tell you, Bynum is not in that category. He never will be. If he was going to be, he’d have already done it. Pray for ping pong balls, because that is the ONLY way we will ever get a transcendent big man. Also, pray for timing because those guys come out once a decade.
that's my whole freakin point,
We don’t have to pray, Bynum is only a little bit worse than Howard and could be just as good, His per minute numbers, age, and PER back this up. IT IS NOT MY OPINION. Look up the numbers.
He very well could be transcendent, but probably not, but will probably have a very good career even if injured.
I have already described my definition of dominant and it would be exactly how the word is used. If Bynum sucks we can always hit the lottery again.
I looked at the PER numbers as you asked
And I see a pretty large difference. Howard’s career average is around 24. Bynum’s is about 20.
To put that in perspective, that’s the difference between Kobe and any of the following: Ray Allen, Vince Carter, and Kevin Martin.
I’ve followed Hollinger for ages and a per of 24 is when you’re getting to the elite rarefied air of potential MVP candidates. 20 makes you an excellent player, likely top 5-8 at your position, but there’s a pretty large distinction.
Again, I’m not bagging Bynum, I think he’s an excellent player. However, I don’t believe he’ll ever be top 10-15 in the game which is basically what you have to have in order be a title contender (as well as the complementary pieces of course). I’ll gamble that Favors can become similar to what Bynum is now and hope we get lucky with the extra picks to pick up a top 10-15 guy either by getting lucky in the lottery or packing up multiple picks to try and get him. Yes, if Bynum sucks, we can always hit the lottery again but when else are we gonna have the chance to potentially suck and have that many extra picks? Melo is that scratch ticket.
Ok, now factor in age, Howard was 19 when he came in the league, Bynum 18.
Howard is 2 years older so we don’t factor in the last two years. Probably the best way to look at it is from age 20 – 22 Howard posted just over a 21 PER average. From age 20 – 22 Bynum posted just under a 21 PER average while battling injuries. I believe Bynum’s ceiling is higher than Howards due to the extra inch in height.
Bynum, fairly healthy will be dominant. To use your word he could be transcendent if everything comes together just right. Favors potential is Kevin Garnett if everything goes just right for him. Garnett never won without a very good center next to him, even while being a consistent MVP canidate. PF’s, in other words, can’t be nearly as influential in a game as C’s can. Favors has a poor handle and a barely acceptable jumper. He has potential but he also has a lot of work. I’d rather take the guy who has already proved himself by the numbers. Favors PER isn’t even the best of the rookies, in fact coming in in 9th.
Sullinger is going to have a damn good career in the NBA
Height is overrated. As long as you have the tenacity needed to dominate the glass and the desire to be a great defender, you’re good. No, Sullinger isn’t going to be MVP caliber, but any team who gets him is getting an All-Star caliber player, I gurantee that. And last time I checked that’s not that bad.
Know when to fold em'.
Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of Denver Stiffs.
I got people nicknaming their kids after me.
I'll reserve the optimism for the 17-win seasons; now is the time for scrutiny.
Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!
by GoldenNugget on Dec 31, 2010 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
Enes Kanter

H: 6’ 9"
W: 250 lbs
Bday: 05/20/1992
(18 Years Old)
he could grow a little bit more perhaps, he’s certainly got “dominate” potential too.
by InboundingLobPass on Dec 31, 2010 3:44 AM MST reply actions
Fabricio de Melo
7’, 270#, presently a freshman at Syracuse. Could one of the picks we get for Melo be used for another Melo? This Melo will probably be a #1 pick when the time comes, probably ’12 or ’13.
I'd pass
When was the last time an Eastern Eupopean actually panned out to be a great NBA player?
Know when to fold em'.
Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of Denver Stiffs.
I got people nicknaming their kids after me.
I'll reserve the optimism for the 17-win seasons; now is the time for scrutiny.
Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!
by GoldenNugget on Dec 31, 2010 12:56 PM MST up reply actions
It's hard to forecast
You can’t just use history because you have to understand, many players of the past didn’t pick up a basketball until their high school years. In the U.S., guys pick up a basketball at a very young age. As basketball continues to globalize, these foreign athletes have begun shunning other sports at a young age for basketball. The biggest difference between U.S. players and foreign players is their basketball development, namely, how long they’ve been playing. It wouldn’t surprise me if in the very near future a wave of Euro players started coming into the league and being very productive because they were all kids when they started hearing about Gasol and Nowitzki and high draft picks like Skita and realized it can be a way to a very good life. Am I willing to bet Kanter is one of them? Certainly no more so than I’m betting Favors will be a great player, likely less because as you said, you’re betting against history and don’t know when the “tide will turn” so to speak. But at the same time, if you’re looking for a market inefficiency, that may still be one on the immediate/near horizon.
It's true
And I’m not ususally one to judge the future based on the past. I’m just saying, I don’t trust high draft picks on Euros unless I’m totally sold. Look at how many busts there have been from Darko, to Skita, to all the way down the line. Dirk and Pau are really the only ones to pan out great and Pau was obvious while Dirk was still a bit of a gamble at the time. I’m just saying, if he was around I’d pass if there were other options still available.
Know when to fold em'.
Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of Denver Stiffs.
I got people nicknaming their kids after me.
I'll reserve the optimism for the 17-win seasons; now is the time for scrutiny.
Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!
by GoldenNugget on Dec 31, 2010 3:17 PM MST up reply actions
Agree, too many busts,
however with the way scouting is these days there should be enough info to make a good decision. Even someone like Tiago Splitter is providing some decent play and size for SA. Definiteley not dominant though.
He's Turkish
first of all it’s a flawed argument to say he won’t pan out simply because of where he was born but even so Turkey is hardly considered eastern Europe and often times more Asian(Middle East). There have been a few good Turks to play in the NBA.
"I just want to say fuck you, and I mean that in the most professional way" -Brandon Llyod
Quitter's People United member # 42
Ok, last I checked, Turkey is in Eastern Europe, correct?
I mean, I’m not a historian or anything but from what I’ve gathered in school Turkey is in Eastern Europe. If that’s the case, I see nothing wrong with my statement about him being Eastern European.
And yes, you are correct, technically my logic is flawed. But it was a joking statement about how it’s a gamble to take players from Eastern Europe becuase other than Hedu Turkoglu and Peja Stojakovic (not sure if Yugolsavia is considered Eastern European), I can’t think of a lot of dudes to come out of that part of the world who have panned out well, much less even panned out at all. I’m just saying, if he were on the board by the time I was picking any any of these guys were too: Kyrie Irving, Jared Sullinger, Perry Jones, Harrison Barnes, Terrence Jones or even Kemba Walker, then I’m taking them no doubt about it.
Know when to fold em'.
Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of Denver Stiffs.
I got people nicknaming their kids after me.
I'll reserve the optimism for the 17-win seasons; now is the time for scrutiny.
Josh McRoberts you STIFF!!!
by GoldenNugget on Jan 1, 2011 10:29 PM MST up reply actions
Apparently the guy has practically has groomed his talents in the US
if Turkey is eastern Europe than so is Greece and Cyprus, doesn’t quite sound right. Strictly geographically speaking it sort of is but culturally it is fairly distinct from your typical eastern European country. And yes the former Yugoslavian countries are considered east Euro. Anyway gotta see what he has to offer, he’s suspended for now for taking money from the pro club he played for last year or something. Yet Newton can play, fuck the NCAA’s hypocrisy.
"I just want to say fuck you, and I mean that in the most professional way" -Brandon Llyod
Quitter's People United member # 42
Let's see E Euro players I would love
Vlade Divac
The 7’3" Russian who was with Portland for awhile Arvidas Sabonis
Pau Gasol
Detlef Schrempf
Dirk
Tell me you would not want one of these right now. Especially Sabonis in his prime (Pre-Portland).
Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth
by IgorBStrange on Jan 4, 2011 12:56 AM MST up reply actions
I think your definition of East European is getting a bit out of hand
Gasol is from Spain. That’s about as west as you can get. Same with Dirk and Schrempf who were both German. Even Sabonis is pretty questionable, nobody ever refers to Russia/Lithuania as Eastern Europe.
You’re right about Vlade though.
would you count Kaman?
We just might be able to tempt the Clips with expiring contracts. Kaman plus Nene is tough stuff.
GN, I agree about Favors. To me he looks like a defensive replacement for KMart, but longer, with better range and a better attitude.
Happy new Year from Italy to all Stiffs !
Sorry, defintely don't count Kaman
He is too much of a borderline Stiff and with his age should be having his best seasons. Just looking at his career shows he won’t be dominant. Agree about Favors, (but still not dominant)
Careful on that vino

by 




















