Potential extensionless Melo trade to the Magic
As time passes, our options regarding the Melo situation seem to be dwindling. While nobody can be 100% certain, it doesn't appear Carmelo is eager or willing to sign an extension with anyone but the Bulls or the Knicks. The Knicks have some tradeable assets, but would likely prefer to just wait out the year and acquire Melo in a sign and trade or as an outright free agent. Chicago could put together an interesting package involving Luol Deng and Taj Gibson, however many Stiffs balk taking on large long term contracts. Neither team has any attractive draft picks for us to rebuild with.
The question then becomes, what teams are willing to chance it and trade for an extensionless Melo? There are 3 candidates I've heard mentioned. Orlando, Dallas and Atlanta. Atlanta seems unlikely given they just threw an insane amount of money at Joe Johnson, a scorer similar to Melo. Dallas is an old team that lacks the young talent and draft picks the Nuggets are interested in. The best candidate I see is the Orlando Magic. Orlando is a small market, but the Magic have a superstar center in Dwight Howard and a willingness to spend money like a big market team (Magic have the 2nd largest payroll in the NBA). They have some interesting trade assets and a reported willingness to take a chance on Carmelo signing an extension there.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/2010/11/magics-ears-perked-to-make-trades.html
The one thing the Magic lack is an attractive draft pick. This is where a potential 3rd team could get involved. Given their ineptitude, we know the Clippers have a variety of good draft picks. Chris Kaman hasn't found his game when playing with Blake Griffin and has been a huge disappointment this year. He is also now injured again and scheduled to miss 3 weeks. They may want to move him for a more reliable defensive minded center like Marcin Gortat (who some people are very high on). Something like this could work:
Denver receives: Chris Kaman, Jameer Nelson, Al-Farouq Aminu, JJ Reddick, and the Clippers 2011 1st rounder
Orlando receives: Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups
LA Clippers receive: Marcin Gortat, Brandon Bass, JR Smith
The Nuggets receive a Clippers 1st round draft pick that could be potentially excellent depending on its protection, a young promising SF in Aminu (50% 3pt shooter) and a well rounded and relatively inexpensive point guard in Jameer Nelson. Jameer is known as a scoring point guard, but is underrated as a passer. He would be an excellent starting PG and would allow Lawson to come off the bench where he is more effective Kaman would likely be around only in short-term unless he regains his allstar form. JJ Reddick, while not having the most attractive contract, is a capable bench shooter that can replace some of JR's production. While Nuggets fans may not agree on whether Chauncey is in a slump or in a career decline, there is no question that Chauncey wants to close out his career playing for a contender. Not many people think Melo-less Nuggets would be a true contender, but a Melo+Dwight Magic team certainly would be.
The Magic would definitely be taking a risk that acquiring Carmelo and Chauncey would earn them a ring or at the very least put them in the Finals. As currently constructed, many doubt the Magic can advance past the Celtics. Since Hedo left, they haven't had a clutch scorer (Vince tends to disappear when needed). But if the Magic can make a deep playoff run with Carmelo, the idea of playing with friend and teammate Chauncey Billups and a possible NBA MVP center would force Melo to strongly consider signing an Orlando extension. Carmelo and Dwight would be a force in the Eastern Conference for years. Since Vince Carter and Chauncey both have team options next year, it gives the Magic the ability to free up space to sign an additional piece. This would definitely be a high risk high reward type trade for them.
For the Clippers, the pairing of Gortat and Bass with Griffin and DeAndre Jordan suddenly gives them an excellent defensive and rebounding front court with significant depth. They also add an explosive scorer off the bench in JR Smith. The draft pick would likely be protected (Top7 or Top 10 maybe) and they still keep the unprotected 2012 Minny pick which will likely be very valuable.
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No way we do move both Chauncey and Melo....just no
Optimism Warrior
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Because Chauncey is Chauncey and Denver fans LOVE him
Trades are not just about swapping bodies in and out. There is a marketing component you have to keep in mind.
I just don’t see Denver moving Chauncey.
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Billups is an interesting case
I believe due to his stature and reputation in this city, it would definitely be a case where we’d have to ask him what he wanted. I agree with SD in that there is an additional component to trading him.
Personally, I’d just be an adult about it and sit down with Billups. I’d tell him we were trading Melo (if that turns out the be case), going to be rebuilding and like to hear what he wants. If he wants to play for a contender, I’d move him about the same time as Melo to a contender for as much value as possible. Billups would then come out with the usual, “Thank you Denver fans, I love you, but I’d like one more chance at a ring” speech and nobody in Denver would anything badly about him or the organization. If Billups said he wanted to finish out his career in Denver, I’d tell him that we won’t be trading him but we would be buying out his 2011 year (he’s not gonna be worth $13M and change next year) and potentially be willing to resign him to something like 2/$10M-12M if he’s willing.
Um No
Billups has said, and I quote “Sure, absolutely. I never want to leave here again. I want to be a Nugget for the rest of my career, whether that’s four, five years, whatever. They know that.”
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he's also said and I quote "I want to be playing for something"
one can only imagine that ‘something’ isn’t referring to a lottery draft pick
i think playing for his hometown qualifies
Why live life on the edge, when you can jump off?
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Something to keep in mind … Donald Sterling has NEVER traded a #1 pick … ever.
He likes to keep them and leave the fans with hope.
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that's interesting
wasn’t aware of that. the 3rd team doesn’t have to be the clippers. the pistons are a possibility. basically another team that needs big man help and has a decent draft pick to offer.
if you wanna just cut salary then you could do
Nuggets receive: Nelson, Prince, Pietrus, Pistons 1st rounder (lightly protected)
Orlando receives: Melo, Chauncey
Pistons receive: Gortat, Bass
If you're gonna do that deal
You have a lot more options because essentially all you traded Melo and Billups for are expirings, Nelson, and a lightly protected 1st rounder. Basically a salary dump in the lines of Vince Carter, Pau Gasol. If that’s our haul for those two players, I’d rather just keep them (and jump off a tall building). Unless we get a youngster with superstar potential or multiple 1st rounders (and at least one of them non-protected), I don’t see any reason to make these deals.
at least you would get a good draft pick from detroit
i don’t know exactly what sets the limits on protections. but i don’t see a scenario where we are getting a good draft pick anywhere unless it’s from new jersey. and they aren’t making any trades unless melo signs an extension.
so yeah, we are pretty much dicked either way.
I dunno
I think even if you sold off Melo as rental, you should at least have one high impact youngster and a 1st. Or an solid young rotation player and two-three draft picks. That’s usually the going rate for rentals. If you throw in Billups too (who I agree, we should move if we move Melo), you can add another rotation youngster and a 1st or expirings + 2 1st’s. So if we’re moving both, I’d like to see one potential impact youngster, a useful rotation player, and two draft picks. Or two useful rotation players and three draft picks.
The deals I think would be palpable with Melo leaving as rental instead of as a sign and trade would be:
Orlando: Billups/Melo and a 2nd for Anderson, Orton, Nelson, Carter, and a coupla first rounders (knowing the 2011 pick will likely be mid-late 20’s and the 2013 pick with slightly more variance). Orlando is ready for a championship run now so I think they’d really be willing to move anyone not named Howard. Unfortunately, their roster just isn’t great to pick over for a team that wants to rebuild. We basically get expirings, a solid PG, the two other youngsters on their roster, and a couple of first-rounders. I’d call this deal a B- for the Nuggets but honestly, it’s all Orlando has to offer.
Houston: Melo and a 2nd for Battier, Jeffries, Hill or Patterson, and the 2011/2012 picks from NY along with Houston’s 2012 1st. Houston hasn’t played up to expectations and may be willing to move future assets for one last run with Yao. Also, Houston was on Melo’s original trade list so they might believe that with half a year there, they may be able to talk him into the extension. I’d call this deal a B+ for the Nuggets simply because we’d get a young big, 3 first’s, and maybe another trade asset in Battier (I could see a contending team trading a late 1st for him).
Dallas: Melo for Butler, Beaubois, Jones, Ajinca, and a coupla firsts. I think this would be very intriguing to Cuban. He’d get to throw out a Chandler/Dirk/Melo/Kidd starting foursome with Haywood, Marion, and Terry second unit. He might also believe he can talk Melo into an extension because he’s a helluva good talker and a fun owner. We get a nice expiring in Butler and 3 youngsters with varying ceilings and a coupla firsts. I’d say this is a B+.
Indiana: Melo for Dunleavy, George, Hansbrough, and a couple of 1sts. Indiana’s making a pretty legit playoff run this year and they wouldn’t have to give up anyone that hurts their current roster. The only question is whether Granger and Melo can both play at the same time. I think the gamble would be worth it as they could go Hibbert/Melo/Granger upfront to start and/or use Granger to lead the second unit for chunks of time at the 3. Nuggets get an expiring, a very risky but super high ceiling player in George, and a useful rotation big in Psycho T along with the usual draft picks. It’s possible those firsts will have more value than previous trades too because Indy’s W-L record probably has the most variance over the next few years compared to previously listed teams. I’d call this a B+ as well.
Milwaukee: Melo/Bird/Balkman for Redd, Illysova, Sanders, Mbah a Moute, and a couple of firsts. Milwaukee would be an ideal place to dump Bird and Balkman’s contracts because they don’t have the trade assets for Melo straight up so they would have to take back additional baggage and they have a huge expiring in Redd. Milwaukee could probably put together a pretty solid playoff push with Jennings/Melo/Bogut and they wouldn’t really damage their current rotations. I like Illysova but Sanders and Moute are likely late rotation players at best and their 1sts could be pretty useful after Melo leaves. I’d call this a C but I do like the idea of getting rid of our remaining questionable contracts.
Realistically, I can’t grade any Melo rental trade as a A as I just don’t think any team would be willing to part with a real impact youngster and multiple firsts (basically Favors + 2 1sts or Gordon + 1sts, or similar) because they’re too far out of the playoffs to make that gamble. There’s numerous trades I would grade as a A if Melo was willing to sign the extension with the other team but as we don’t know if he’d be willing (outside of NY), it’s too difficult now to even put together packages.
yea but half the guys you mention don't even play or are D-league callups
so clearly you put value in the number of draft picks received. i would honestly rather have one potentially high draft pick than numerous late 1st rounders.
you really think houston would give up 3 first round picks for a melo rental when they are struggling to even make the playoffs?
the only teams i see renting melo are playoffs teams that have a legit title shot. basically dallas and orlando. but any draft picks we receive from either team are late 1st round and unlikely to produce anything better than a rotation player at best.
Of course I'd rather have one potentially high draft pick. I'd trade Melo for the #1 pick in the 2011 draft immediately if that were offered.
But when you have a potentially high draft pick, it means you suck, which means you’re not going to be renting Melo for half a season. So all the teams we want to trade with (LAC, Minnesota, NJ, Detroit) have no reason to part with future assets for a half year of Melo. It makes no sense. The only teams we can try and trade with would be playoff contenders and title contenders, basically the teams I listed who have the assets and perhaps the willingness to make a trade (short of us moving Melo to the Lakers for Shannon Brown, Vujacic, and similar parts). It’s not that I “value” the number of draft picks involved, but simply a lack of options. No playoff contender is going to move their best player who’s under contract for Melo who has half a season. That GM would probably be fired on the spot.
As far as bringing up Houston, I do believe Houston may be willing to add a premium to make a Melo deal because they were on his original list of trade cities. They may be one of the rare instances where they’re willing to pay more now because they feel if they can get Melo in the city, in the organization, they will improve their chances of resigning him. Not to mention he could try and help salvage this season, a season Houston fans had very high hopes for.
Bottom line is if you’re moving Melo as a rental, your likely destination spots are minimal because as you said, only title contenders (and I believe playoff contenders) would be willing to make the move. In addition, these teams naturally have lower draft picks and usually fewer young assets as they’re more veteran teams, hence why they’re in the playoffs. That’s why I was so down on the original trade you posted, if we’re getting crap young assets/picks in return, there’s no reason to hamstring ourselves financially while we’re at it. On the flip side in regards to your other trade, if we’re really not getting value for our return, we might as well just keep Melo and make one more last push.
that's why a 3rd team with a decent draft pick needs to get involved
otherwise i agree we’re looking at late sts, guys with bad contracts or guys who can’t even break the rotations on their current teams.
Even if you involve a 3rd team
you’re under the belief that Team B (the team who acquires Melo) can offer Team C (the third team) something that we wouldn’t want in a straight up deal. Also, team C’s are the sucky teams so the only things they’ll likely want in a trade are the very things they don’t want to part with: young assets and draft picks. The only thing I can realistically see Team C offering that Team B may not have is a large expiring contract, similar to how Utah got involved with Kirilenko in the original trade with NJ that was shot down.
I forgot to mention in my previous post but the reason I have down 2 1sts in all the trade scenarios is that’s likely what we’ll get in return at the end of the season if Melo walks anyways, similar to the Bosh/LeBron trades. These are to appease the superstars so they can sign larger deals for more years (via S&T instead of straight FA) and I can’t see any reason why we wouldn’t get the same, or something similar. So in other words, the non-draft pick parts (or any picks over 2) are basically the “premium” we receive for trading Melo before this summer. While some of them might not be sexy, I think the ones I listed above offer at least some sort of value in terms of that premium.
orlando's got enough talent there's gotta be somebody willing to give up a 1st
for guys like Gortat, Bass, Pietrus, or Nelson.
might have to settle for late lottery or mid 1st round. detroit, phoenix, charlotte, philly, somebody.
It's certainly possible
I can’t pretend like I know the inner workings of any GM’s mind, especially in regards to specific players. I can only make overarching speculation based on logical decisions (which certainly is not always the case). If there’s a playoff or title contending team out there who needs help in the middle, I’ll throw PHO or Utah as an example, they certainly may be willing to move an expiring and a protected 1st (I’d say top 15ish would be in the right ballpark) for Gortat which they would the offer to the Nuggets. I’m sure there’s several teams that would offer a similar deal for Nelson.
However, I doubt any team that look to be firmly entrenched in the lottery would give up their pick for one of those pieces. Gortat’s contract is lengthy and seems a bit excessive. Pietrus is an expiring. Bass is a rotation player, probably not someone a struggling team would acquire at the cost of a future asset (but they’d be happy to sign as a FA, there’s a distinction), and similar for Nelson, but he’s more realistic. Then again, if my choices were between Nelson and a late first, I’d probably just take Nelson.
It goes back to your earlier statement that you’d rather have a potentially high pick than several lower ones, which I wholeheartedly agree with. It’s just none of the teams with a potentially high pick have the motivation to make that sort of move. Why would they? Unless some crappy team fell in love with say Daniel Orton, one of the few young, cheap, projectable assets ORL has , there’s nothing on the ORL roster that they’re willing to move that a crappy team would give up a late lottery-mid first for.
Agree
In the crazy unlikely event the lakers would get interested, they have to send Bynum and Odom back. But I really don’t want to see Melo go to LA. However, I’d rather take that than say, a package centered around Luol Deng – which is ritual suicide and makes us a .500 team for the next 3 years with the cieling of a first round exit.
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by runningdonut on Dec 11, 2010 2:42 PM MST up reply actions
Eric Bledsoe
Picked by OKC and traded to the clips for A #1 pick. Maybe not their #1 pick, cause I dont know the details, but they did trade a #1 pick for bledsoe.
I agree with Nate
I see no reason for the Clippers to give up Aminu and a #1 pick when they themselves are rebuilding… again. Not to mention with how bad they’re sucking at the moment, they wouldn’t give up a 2011 1st unless it was protected like crazy. Unless they get to dump Baron Davis’s walking corpse and contract somewhere, they’re not moving anything young.
Also, what is your vision for the Nuggets with this? We’re taking back quite a bit of money with Kaman, Reddick, and Nelson who all are signed beyond this year. None of them are real difference makers, nice players in right scenarios, but ultimately, complimentary. Those are the exact type of players I don’t want on the Nuggets if we trade Melo, unless we’re getting someone back that we can point to as, “Yes, absolutely, we’re building about (insert name here).” I don’t think Aminu fits that bill. Just doesn’t make sense to get supporting players to support an unknown superstar as opposed to trying to get a superstar and then filling in the pieces later. You don’t know what pieces you’ll need and as we all know, everything in the NBA is superstar driven (for good reason).
I'm sorry
but I think Denver gets completely hosed in this deal. I’d rather take Deng and Taj before a take that shit package and lose the entire team.
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2 things
Clippers give up their only all star in recent memory, their lottery pick from last years draft, a lottery pick in NEXT years draft, and all they get is a bunch of bench players with longer contracts. Second of all, no room to do this trade unless we waive Ely and carry the maximum 15 players. Stan has never done that in three years, George has never used that deep of a rotation and we end up paying a lot of money for too many players who are not going to see the court and contribute.
The other thing is, as I keep saying time and time again – slaughtering all of the cap flexibility we are going to have BEFORE a new CBA which is likely to help us a lot would be the worst move the Nuggets could make? Why? Because we would have a totally new team and there wouldn;t be enough time to evaluate them, make a serious run in the playoffs or really know how good we could be. That’s why in my mind, you want to compete you look at keeping Melo, otherwise you resign yourself to the fact that we are rebuilding and we all start watching college basketball and visiting Draftexpress.com religiously
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I think you over estimate Orlando's willingness to take a rental
I doubt they trade Nelson, Bass, Gortat and Reddick for two guys who could bolt at the end of the year.
And also this trade wouldn’t happen in a million years, too many players. Keep it simple.
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I'm on the flip side, I think ORL would pull the trigger immediately
I think they may have realized they went a little overboard with the Gortat and Reddick contract’s, especially seeing as how they already have huge dollars locked up in Howard and Lewis. If they can give themselves a better team this year (which I believe this trade would certainly do) and lower their financial obligations in the future, they’d jump all over it. If Melo decides to resign there in the offseason after learning he absolutely loves playing with Howard, which is certainly possible, it’d just be an even bigger slam dunk.
I don't see that happening man
Please remember that Jameer Nelson is still a very good player, who has had health problems. Orlando does this deal, then they have a monster sized hole at point guard next year, having given up their point guard of the future whom Dwight Howard likes playing with.
Then, imagine this team with Melo, Vince Carter, Rashard Lewis, and Quentin Richardson. That is a team way out of balance, too many wing scorers with too much overlap. Orlando is not panicking yet, they still have one of the very best teams in the East. They have a future as long as Jameer and Dwight are young and productive. So why give that up on a gamble that Melo is going to fall in love once you rent him?
NBA GMs always have to look down the line. When they make a spur of the moment decision to save money or try to get a piece they think will guarantee them a championship, it almost always turns out bad. Otis Smith is a very good GM and there’s no possible way he wants to “jump all over” this Carmelo deal unless the Magic are in serious trouble, and they aren’t
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by runningdonut on Dec 11, 2010 3:42 PM MST up reply actions
I don't believe the overlapping wings should play any part of it
Especially when you consider current and future financial implications. Rashard Lewis a pure stretch 4, and in a system with Howard, he works fine. Vince and Melo would certainly be redundant, but if Vince Carter is the reason you don’t make a trade for Melo, something is wrong with you. And Richardson is making too little money and plays too small a role to be a reason to stop this trade. He’s an 8th man at this point so who cares?
Say this trade happens exactly as stated above: Melo, Billups for Gortat, Reddick, Bass and Nelson. For this year, ORL can now look to move Carter’s contract for anything that would help this team in the immediate future. And they’re able to because they’ve shed future guaranteed salaries with all four players. The players they’re acquiring, make $30M while shipping away $35M. They save $10M immediately this year (with luxury tax). And other than Nelson, can you honestly say they’re giving away any portion of their team that can be defined as “core?” I certainly can’t. And they’re replacing Nelson with Billups, whom for the immediate future, wouldn’t be a massive downgrade, certainly less than I believe the improvement between Vince and Melo would be (not including whatever you could trade Vince for).
Now, as you stated, GM’s need to look into the future. This deal also helps them in that regard. With this deal, they’ve traded $25M guaranteed next year for $3.5M guaranteed (Billups’s partial guarantee). That means if they make this trade and decide for future financial flexibility, they’ll have shaved off $21.5M off their payroll for next year (not including any luxury tax). If they resign Melo and released Vince (which would only make sense) and use Billups’s option for next year, this team would STILL be cheaper than it is this year.
I honestly believe from ORL’s viewpoint, this trade would not only make them better immediately, but they’d be in a far happier place salary-wise having lopped off some pretty substantial guaranteed contracts for players who aren’t, and possibly (even likely) will never play up to them. What’s the downside?
Vince isn't expiring
He has a partial guarantee. Without knowing what you can for him, why trade for Melo now? Maybe you get a player like Iguodala for VC that makes you look at a Melo trade differently.
Ask Orlando fans what their core is. I guarantee almost all say Jameer, Dwight, and possibly Rashard. Jameer Nelson was very recently an all-star. He is very productive and there’s no indications he won’t produce excellent value for years and years relative to his contract. I would argue he is as good as Chauncey now, with a lot of upside left whereas Chauncey is on the decline. Jameer Nelson is an important part of Orlando’s future, period. He’s just not a throw in for a one year mental of Melo.
Any great GM is taking a huge gamble renting Melo 90% of them won’t consider it unless they aren’t giving up anything more than a few expirings and maybe a pick. Trying to think we can make a good trade for a rental of Melo is a longshot – the New jersey deal will always be there if Melo is willing.
The downside is, you take a contender like Orlando, trade away some good young pieces for expirings, and then face some tough questions next year if Melo doesn’t sign and you lose to the Heat or Celtics. Too much unnecessary risk, not enough potential reward – unless you want to just save money. But Orlando wants to win, that’s why they’ve stuck to their plan and continue to spend a lot of money, just like the Nuggets have
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by runningdonut on Dec 11, 2010 4:37 PM MST up reply actions
You trade for Melo now because you believe he's he piece to put you over the top
And you won’t be able to trade for him again, likely ever. It’s certainly no guarantee a player of his caliber will come up in a situation like this again while ORL is still near a championship level team (injuries, Lewis’s imminent decline with huge money left are key factors).
I have absolutely no doubt ORL fans would say Nelson and Dwight are core pieces. But if you have to move Nelson, certainly the lesser of the two, for someone who has a pretty solid track record in Melo, don’t you roll the dice? The entire point is to win a championship, something I don’t believe the current ORL roster can do. I don’t want to say their window is closing simply because Howard there, but as Lewis keeps making more money and producing less, you have to wonder how long ORL’s immediate championship window is.
And you say trade away some good young pieces, which pieces are you referring to other than Nelson? Gortat? Reddick? Bass? If you can trade any of those players for someone who can help you immediately and happens to be expiring, I don’t see that as any sort of obstacle.
Also
Billups couldn’t “bolt” at the end of the year, at least not by his decision. The option next year is a team option, so ORL could absolutely guarantee themselves another year of Chauncey if they so chose to.
Yeah but do you think they will pick up his option
I doubt it. Chauncey is very overpaid, why would anyone pick his option up going into a new cba?
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Also
That directly contradicts your earlier statement of how they would do it to get rid of overpaid contracts. If that’s true then they certainly wouldn’t turn right around and pick up an overpriced option
Why live life on the edge, when you can jump off?
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The dfiference is Chancey's contract is non-guaranteed
There’s a huge difference between a team option with one year remaining, as in Chauncey’s case, vs. players with multiple guaranteed years left, as is the case with Gortat and Reddick. Even if Billups contract is overpaying him at the moment, it’s still the team’s option for next year. Also, as we’ve learned, any contract in its last year, no matter the size, has value attached to it simply due to the fact its expiring. This will be the case with Billups, not the case with Gortat and Reddick for several years.
Right i get that
But then you are going right back to the rental player dilemma
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Yes, but it's the team's option
Having that option is everything. If Melo’s option next year was a team option, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. It all comes down to flexibility. Despite the fact Billups’s contract is overpaying, it’s still the team’s option to make that overpay. They’re not locked into it which means everything. In addition, even if they let Billups go, they’d be saving themselves a ton of guaranteed money next year by making this trade.
Right I get that
I think though you find yourself in an ogre’s choice with this deal. Giving up a lot of players to either get two rentals or get two guys you will have to pay a lot of money.
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But does it matter?
If you’re giving up a lot of players who aren’t vital components of your team (going with the assumption that using Billups as a replacement for Nelson is not a large downgrade), then who cares? It’s not like they’re trading Howard in this. You’re giving up your bench fodder, many of whom have numerous years left at salaries they’re unlikely to give value at so what does it matter? Would you give up Chris Anderson and Renaldo Balkman, two bench players with monetary obligations exceeding their playing value (I’m equating them to Gortat, Reddick, and Bass in this scenario), for Marc Gasol, despite the fact he’s expiring and will command a hefty contract next year? Of course you would. If Gasol turns out to be a rental, you’ve cleared out future guaranteed money for guys not playing up to their salaries. If Gasol resigns, you pay the guy a lot of money believing he’ll give you proper value, at a position that you need no less. Similar to Melo with Orlando.
While not trading key pieces
You are trading key rotation players. Did Dallas give up key pieces last year for Butler and Haywood? No. Did it get them any further last season? No. In fact you could argue it hurt them more than it helped, especially when you consider how Butler and Haywood are playing this year. There’s something to be said for chemistry and direction. Orlando runs the risk of losing a bunch of players who have been together for a while for two very good players, then losing those said players and being in an immediate unknown situation at the same time their franchise player goes into a contract year. I just think it would be way too much of a gamble.
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Does it matter to Dallas though?
Like you said, even though Butler and Haywood haven’t been great, what did they give up for them? The trade didn’t hurt them in any way so why not roll the dice?
I absolutely agree that chemistry and direction are critical to a team’s success. But at the same time, if the current chemistry and direction aren’t leading you to where you want to be (playoffs, title, different for each team), then doesn’t it behoove you try something different?
Well consider that they misread Haywood, but couldn't just let him go
So they gave him a huge contract (much like Orlando would have to do with Chauncey) and now are saddled with a bad contract for a declining player
Why live life on the edge, when you can jump off?
Quitter's People United Member #20
But if your owner is willing to spend the money, who cares?
It’s not like Dallas is a team that’s locked in at a $55M payroll. Cuban has shown his willingness to spend to try and improve his team, so Haywood’s lack of production for his salary doesn’t hurt them nearly as much as it would a team which a frugal owner, we’ll say the Clippers. Orlando has shown a willingness to spend, especially with their new arena on the horizon, so if they want to spend the money, go nuts.
It’s like the Yankees and Rockies. If the Yankees make a 5 year/$80M mistake, who cares? They’ll just spend more to get around that. If the Rockies make that sort of mistake, it can have some serious ramifications for the team in future years.
Now, if there is a hard cap in the new CBA, that absolutely changes everything. But I can’t predict something like that so I have to make assumptions under the current system, or a system that will be similar to the current system.
There are other ways to save money
Chief of them, don’t trade for a player like Chauncey, who is more expensive than Jameer Nelson, and whom you have to pay $3.7 million to have the option to walk away from him next year. Great NBA owners understand you have to spend money to win. That’s why you trade for Melo thinking you can sign him to a max extension this summer, not because you want to clear cap room for the future. It makes no sense for Orlando unless they are keeping Melo
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Quitter's People United Member #13
by runningdonut on Dec 11, 2010 4:40 PM MST up reply actions
Melo leaving is worst case
in this trade scenario for ORL, but who have they given up for him? Gortat? Reddick? Bass? I certainly understand Nelson is a solid player but it’s not like he’s Chris Paul or anything. You don’t make this deal wanting Melo to be a rental, but even if he is, how are you really worse off? You’ve improved this year, which is certainly one of the priorities for an ORL that has championship aspirations, and if he resigns, you’re set for the rest of the decade. If he leaves, you haven’t given up much in terms of your core, so why not roll the dice? It’s not like they’re trading for a guy with 3 years and $60M guaranteed left that has serious question marks. I don’t see why that doesn’t make any sense.
They have given up part of their core
Chauncey leaves, Melo does not re-sign. Chris Duhon is their starting point guard. That’s a down grade from Jameer. Bass, Gortat, and Redick were signed to those contracts because they have great potential Magic are counting on down the line. Redick will start when Carter leaves. Bass is starting some games now (and he’s pretty good by the way). You act like Orlando did themselves a favor by shedding those three guys. How do you replace them if Melo leaves and you are Orlando? No cap space, no good draft picks, and no depth thanks to the fact you traded it away on a gamble that didn’t work out. On one hand you say they make a great trade by saving future money, but then say the real reason is because they want to spend more money and keep Melo. In that case, why not just do a sign and trade for Melo if that’s the ultimate goal?
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Quitter's People United Member #13
by runningdonut on Dec 11, 2010 4:52 PM MST up reply actions
I have no doubt that would be their ultimate goal
but that’s entirely dependent on Melo, not on what Orlando wants. And you say they signed those players to those contracts like they’re guaranteed to perform up to those contracts. Feel free to poke around Philly’s forums and see how much guaranteed performance they got from Elton Brand. Or Washington with Arenas. Or hundreds of other examples. Sometimes, contracts are mistakes. I believe the contracts ORL handed out, to Reddick and Gortat in specific, were mistakes. I thought so then, I think so now. Too many years, too much money, for guys who don’t play up to the value of them.
And again, Chauncey doesn’t have to leave. That’s the team’s option. If they don’t want Duhon running point next year, they don’t have to make him run point. If you can’t find a way to replace the production of Bass, Gortat, and Reddick, their 6,7, and 8th men, then I’d argue you have much larger problems with your team makeup.
Also, I didn’t say they make a great trade by saving future money. I simply said this is a great trade because the worst case scenario is they save a ton of future money. Big difference. If the best case scenario is locking up Melo to team with Howard for the better part of the decade with Billups giving two years of solid production and the worst case is you shed a lot of “excessive” contracts, again, what’s the downside? Yes, you have to replace the players you traded, but other than Nelson (who only has one more year contractually than Billups, 3 vs.2 ), who is that difficult to replace?
I don't agree that Bass and Gortat's contracts are that bad
Now Redick, that is one hideous contract. No hiding that. But as far as those other guys go, there is a difference between not producing and not getting the opportunity to produce. The Magic are one of the deeper teams in the league and Bass, Gortat in particular struggle to get minutes behind Dwight and Rashard. On different teams, they could become very productive players who are slightly overpaid (but not so much that it hurts you long term).
I don;t know if you’ve noticed, but Bass is a legit 6th man of the year candidate this year. He’s starting some games now, but he’s been incredibly solid for Orlando having got the opportunity to play (Ryan Anderson is shut out of their rotation because of it). Marcin Gortat plays behind the best Center in the game who is a lot more ball-dominant this year. You think he’s overpaid – Go look at Diop, Nazr Mohammed, Eddy Curry, Brandan Haywood, Darko Milicic and any number of others. You generally overpay for size in the NBA.
Bass, Gortat, and Redick aren’t poor enough players or overpaid to the extend you can say they are THAT bad of contracts. Bass and Gortat, in particular, could really help the Nuggets if we were able to somehow trade for them. Look at what Kenyon Martin and Al Harrington are making. You seriously think Bass and Gortat’s contracts are bad? I don;t even wanna know what you think of the Nuggets signing Harrington.
Orlando has some bad contracts. Vince Carter, Rashard Lewis in particular. Other guys aren’t their problem
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Quitter's People United Member #13
by runningdonut on Dec 11, 2010 5:28 PM MST up reply actions
You're right in that there are varying degrees of bad
Arenas’s contract with Wizards? That’s a 10 on a scale of 1-10 in bad contracts. Kenyon? He’s probably a solid 8.5-9. I’d rate Gortat at a 6.5, Reddick at an 8, and Bass at a 1 (he doesn’t make enough money or long enough years for it to be bad). To get off topic a second, I don’t think Harrington’s contract is that bad because it’s only 3 guaranteed years. Once again, he’s not making enough per year or for enough years for it to be really bad, I’d rate him like a 4.
Back on topic, I completely agree Orlando has much worse contracts on their books, particularly Rashard Lewis. However, he’s likely untradeable, certainly in a package that returns Melo to them or any sort of impact player. As a GM, you basically have to write that down as a sunk cost and do what you can with whatever else is on the roster. I don’t consider Bass a bad player at all or with a bad contract, the only reason he’s been included my discussions is because he was in the original trade idea. I’m sure Orlando, and maybe the Nuggets also, would be much more partial to Orlando including another first rounder instead of Bass. It’s not like his salary is needed to make the trade work, in fact, the Nuggets would probably prefer it not to be included. So the trade then becomes Melo/Billups for Gortat, Nelson, Reddick, and a 1st. From ORL’s perspective, I see even less downside now.
I also agree that you have to overpay for size, but that doesn’t mean it’s right or healthy for your team. I also agree that the contracts are THAT bad, but if you can get rid of them, why not? It’s not like Birdman or Balkman’s contracts are THAT bad but if you could move them for someone who upgrades your team, why wouldn’t you?
Harrington
The last 2 years are unguaranteed, so if you go that route It’s a 3 year contract at $9 million per, which is a bad contract for a 31 year old jump shooting 4. Gortat is still young, capable and has produced when given a starting role and big minutes. If Harrington isn’t making enough per year to be considered bad, then neither is Gortat. They got the same deal. 5 years full MLE. Gortat is fully guaranteed, but he’s younger and probably has another contract to look forward to after it. Harrington, should be good for about 15 pts and 5 rebounds for 2 more years, then he could be pretty bad. I’ve already seen a few bad signs he’s not gonna age well in the next 5 years, and wouldn’t be a great fit on a young rebuilding team.
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Quitter's People United Member #13
by runningdonut on Dec 11, 2010 7:42 PM MST up reply actions
Actually I have a 9 player trade which I can argue makes sense
So here it is
Nuggets-Trade Melo, JR Smith, receive Eddy Curry, Landry Fields, Andray Blatche, Wiz #1 pick, protected as they always are
Knicks- Trade Eddy Curry, Landry Fields, Danillo Gallinari, Ronny Turiaf and a pick for down the road, receive Melo, Yi Jianlian and Kevin Seraphin
Wizards- Trade Andray Blatche, Kevin Seraphin and #1 pick, receive JR Smith, Danilo Gallinari, Ronny Turiaf and NY pick.
Why it makes sense:
Denver- The Nuggets essentially get what the ask for: two young players, a big expiring contract and a top pick
Knicks- They get their man in Melo and don’t really give up all that much back, not to mention the trade out Turiafs contract which has a player option for next year (one he will be taking) for Yi’s contract which expires at the end of the year. They also get a young prospect in Seraphin. They also don’t gut the team, they still have Amare, they still have Felton and they still have Randolph and Azubuike (who btw are the second and third highest PER on the team behind Stat and ahead of Felton)
Wizards- the one who is most unlikely to pull the trigger. Why? well because they give up a fair bit of talent for sure in Blatche and a pick and a young prospect. However, can you think of a team more desperately in need of wing scorers? In this scenario they get 2, one who can come off the bench for Gilbert (JR) so that you don’t overload on ball dominant guards, and one who is at his best scoring off ball (Gallo). Also get Turiaf and the knicks pick helps offset the loss of Blatche and their own pick.
Will it happen? no of course not, too many players, too complicated, someone is bound to find something they don’t like about it (probably Washington).
And before you start screaming that there is no way Washington gives up Blatche keep in my mind he signed a long contract for 5mil+ per year that he isn’t exactly living up to (trust me, I have him on my fantasy team…I know).
Why live life on the edge, when you can jump off?
Quitter's People United Member #20
he's averaging 17ppg and almost 8 rebounds
what exactly are his expectations? he’s not a good defender sure but still those are good stats.
I think Washington was expecting something like 20-10
Which he’s close to. I did just read an article on him though a few days ago that said he was under-performing. Who knows. I agree 17-7 is a good line at only 5 mil per year. Like I said Blatche is kind of the sticking point in it. Just trying to think of three team deals that make sense. Seeing as how the only thing of value NY has are scoring wings thats where I went with it
Why live life on the edge, when you can jump off?
Quitter's People United Member #20
Like you said earlier, keep it simple
And I agree, the Wiz definitely don’t pull the trigger on this. You say they need more wing scorers but this team is already overpaying at the position with Heinrich and Arenas. So now instead of having two ball-dominant guards, you have three (Wall, Arenas, JR). Also, they’re giving up a lot of young talent, talent that they wanted or drafted, for an expiring (JR) and a worse draft pick.
Is anybody having problems viewing the Nuggets vs Knicks preview? Every time I try and read it. It says the page does not exist.
Also Melo said today that he is thinking about signing the extension. Don’t know if anybody has read the article but here it is.
http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/26364574
Meloooooo!!!
JR Swish From Way Down Town!!!
Stop Snitchin!!!
The time for convincing him we can win is now
No reason that the Nuggets shouldn’t go 7-3 over the stretch of games that started last night to end December. No reason they shouldn’t go 13-4 in January. No reason they shouldn’t go 6-2 over the span in February leading up to the Melo has to sign by the 15th deadline. No reason the Nuggets shouldn’t be 39-17 when it comes time for Melo to make the be all and end all decision.
Why live life on the edge, when you can jump off?
Quitter's People United Member #20
Whoops I guess its the 24th not the 15th
That said there is no reason for the Nuggets not to be at 40 wins by that time, and anytime you hit 40 wins in February you’ve got a damn good team
Why live life on the edge, when you can jump off?
Quitter's People United Member #20
I saw that
I mean Melo himself indicated that he has given Masai a lot more than he has in the past. What that means about him actually signing who knows because he doesn’t seem in any hurry to do it.
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Quitter's People United Member #13
by runningdonut on Dec 11, 2010 4:57 PM MST up reply actions
Basically not reading too much into this cause there isn't anything new thats solid
I just want to beat NY tomorrow on the road
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Quitter's People United Member #13
by runningdonut on Dec 11, 2010 5:04 PM MST up reply actions
Well, my internet had issues(again)
My oh my, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
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