A Sheep in Wolf's Clothing: 2009 Nugs edition
by runningdonut on Nov 30, 2009 9:28 PM MST
23 comments
Well first off let me say I'm not throwing the towel in on the season after a single loss to the T-Wolves. I'm just trying to express how remarkably sad it is to see potential greatness go down in flames knowing there's very little the Nuggets can do to avoid it. There are too many things working against them, the worst being they took the forbidden fruit of buying into their own hype and a taste of the spotlight just wasn't enough. These guys feel entitled to greatness for losing the WCF and there's just no logical reason or excuse for it whatsoever.
It's funny how everyone started dickriding the Nuggets so suddenly. Going into the playoffs last year they were an afterthought, a cool story but more likely to be pretenders than a serious threat to LA. Barkley then has a momentary lapse in stupidity and now it's cool to like the Nuggets. Everyone drank the kool aid, sportswriters, local media, fans and worst of all the Denver Nuggets themselves
I said even during the wins this team showed nothing inspiring. They are pretty good and should be, the payroll is quite high and luckily we got great talent for all that money. There is no identity to this team, no continuity to how they win because every night someone different is trying to shine, hit a new career high or get themselves on Sportscenter's top plays. The only Nugs I really enjoy watching are Aflac, Ty Lawson, Joey and Naldo because they play with a chip on their shoulder and play like they have something to prove when they do get minutes. The rest of them act like they are god's gift to hoops and opponents are going to piss themselves with fear upon witnessing them. Ego is killing this team and it's fucking killing me too
Normally I would be able to hold out hope for a turnaround but where does George Karl fit into this? Yes, he is playing the right players now but he is so helpless to deal with the coming implosion it's not even funny. The players have no discipline, no structured gameplan, and if you watch games it's easy to see that Chauncey and Kenyon have free reign - their egos are running the team, nothing more. Why were the Nuggets so tragically flawed during the Iverson era? Because Allen did everything on his own terms in Denver, GK was just there to watch. Karl can't handle the personalities on this team once reality sets in, he will lose the team quickly when they do get challenged and subsequently slaughtered by a squad more dedicated to championship TEAM basketball. Thank God it's the last year of his deal.
Honestly we could still win the division and shit, win a series in the playoffs or something too. For me I don't really give a damn. Maybe we should let Portland have it, and when they lose to LA perhaps it will turn them into a bunch of selfish conceited assholes like us. Well, Melo should average 30 shots a game and be on TV a lot - he may get some MVP votes too so there's always that. Good God basketball got shitty quick. I almost believed they had the heart of a champion.
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Are you kidding me?
I get what you’re saying, but god man. These posts of ultimate demise are so fucking tiresome. And it starts with Andrew going a little bit overboard with the recap.
We are 12-5. 17 games in. 65 left. And you say you’re not throwing in the towel. OF COURSE NOT!!! they don’t have the heart of a champion? Really? How would we know that?
Because we’ve played a couple of shitty games I don’t quite see the reason for the panic button. I usually don’t reach for that until we’re down 3-0 in a playoff series.
I keep looking at all the posts: “fire George Karl!” “Get rid of Anthony!” “There is something wrong with Billups!”…come on guys(and gals)! Is there a slight possibility that we’ve put a little too much expectation on this team who is CLEARLY going through what someone with a little perspective might call a phsychological slump.
As a Denver fan (of ALL our teams) since birth, I’m well aware of where we go as fans with one of our teams struggling. We turn into these wierd “reverse phsychology” freaks. We think that if we send a message out to the universe saying: “Might as well call it a day on this season! We aren’t ready for greatness I guess. Someone else deserves to win, but not us, we don’t have the heart of a champion”…as if we’re waiting for this magical response of “wait a minute. These fans deserve a championship” and then this incredible run happens and we fund ourselves pleasantly surprised!
Like I said before, I get where you coming from. I do. But it was just one game. And yeah it stings. And yeah. I get the argument that that game was a symptom of this greater disaster lurking beneath the surface. But don’t you think we should see how these guys respond before we start crushing them, the coaches, and our chances at being a champion.
We knew the personality of this team going in. We’ve always known. And as frustrating as that makes us, it’s also the reason last years playoff run was so special, and why we ultimately LOVE these guys. They piss us off cause we see ourselves on them on some level. The mistakes, the emotion, the joy, AND the pain.
Let’s see what happens…and if it continues to go downhill in the same way the next few games, then I will happily join in the panic. Trust me.
Side note: I always love reading your posts and comments and enjoy the way you put things, just so you know…mad props fellow nuggets brother.
Go fucking Nuggets!!!!
by SternfluffsKobe on Nov 30, 2009 10:04 PM MST via mobile reply actions
Totally agree
The year (1996, I think) the Broncos lost to the Jags in the playoffs everyone reacted the same way. “I can’t believe they lost to such an inferior team at home.” Losses like that always get remembered. Hopefully, the Nuggets will watch the tape, listen to the coaches and staff, learn from it, move on, and get back on track.
Go fucking Nuggets!!
by NuggetsLife on Nov 30, 2009 10:53 PM MST up reply actions
the thing is it isn't one game
they lost to the clips. they tried to lose to the knicks. we’ve seen them routinely coast through games knowing they could turn it on at the end and win. except sometimes you cant. some of us saw this coming and that makes it much more frustrating-we cant brush it off as “just one game”.
by Rainbow skyline on Nov 30, 2009 10:56 PM MST up reply actions
Yes. I see what you're saying
But remember when we got crushed by the Nets last year by like 42 points towards the end of the season? And I’m not here to make excuses for them, but after the clips game they weren’t as concerned. But now after this, and I mean, directly after this game, you can FEEL some sort of change about to happen. So I’m saying, let’s wait and see. Plus we HAVE to “wait and see” because there is a lot of season left. We should be able to recognize our personalities as Denver fans and admit that we overreact sometimes in a special/unique kind of way. I love being a fan in colorado! Cause we celebrate our teams and players just as uniquely!
by SternfluffsKobe on Nov 30, 2009 11:21 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I just finished re-reading a lot of the comments made after the T-wolves loss
And maybe you should consider changing your name to “RAINBOW SYLINE IS FALLING”… the stuff you said like: a chance at a number one seed is impossible etc…is a little crazy.
I’m gonna chalk that up to pure passionate, blind anger, which you are ABSOLUTLEY entitled to. But I’m giving you a pass, because what if we do?
Listen, other teams are gonna lose too! We aren’t the only ones!
I don’t like the inference that this team doesn’t wanna win. That would be wierd. I mean, when you consider the amount of ego and pride on this team.
by SternfluffsKobe on Nov 30, 2009 11:57 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed 100
Way too early to even consider dumping the season. The TWolves game was one of the worst this team has put together in a long time but it was just 1 of 82
bleh
Get over the T-wolves lose. While they might be an inferior team. Please realize that they play in the NBA and have NBA talent which can come up big in situations ( see Nuggets game)
It's been 17 games
We’re still waiting for them to “respond” to the Clipper loss and the poor play on the road and I have seen nothing. There is a lot of potential here but every game is a crap shoot when you approach it like you should win by just showing up and your plan is play hard. I have seen enough ball now to look at all the 4 and 5 loss teams and spot who the phonies are. Look at the games the Nugs lose asnd tell me there isn’t a pattern. I really hope they turn it around in the face of more pressure, adversity, and better competition and hey I hope I win the lottery too. I like this team more than version of the Nuggets in recent memory, so it’s a tough pill to swallow knowing we are looking at a season in the middle of the pack and praying for good luck come playoff time. Again.
There are 65 games left. 65
That’s more than three quarters of a season left. Keep the faith brother! See how they respond tonite. Just do me that favor. Stop looking at other 4-5 loss teams and comparing them…just for now. Wait until the actual middle -end of season before instead of prognosticating. The timberwolves loss is WAY different than the Clipper loss. I just say, after hearing people absolutely panic, they might feel a little more urgency…
by SternfluffsKobe on Dec 1, 2009 10:00 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Follow my reasoning a bit
I think it’s good we’re getting these god aweful losses out of the way early on. I know some fans will say it’s the writing on the wall, but come on guys really? Remember last season after the all star break when the Nuggets had a huge lead for the 2 seed then squandered it all by losing 6 of 8 including that embarrasing loss to the Nets? I’d rather the Nuggs get that taste of losing done and over with early on in the season and not when playoff positioning heats up. Anyway that’s just the way I see it.
True that there are some glaring faults this team HAS to mend, but nothing to mail in a season over. Like their pick and roll defense and boxing out in the paint. I just don’t thik that the panic button should even be an option for a fan right now. After 17 games we’re 12-5. Winning 60% of our road games and damn near 90% at home, there is no need to panic.
I'm with runningdonut here
I’m really disappointed so far. I loved the first 2 games, loved the win over the Gasol-less Lakers, but otherwise it’s been frustrating.
I guess I had some Nuggets Kool-Aid myself after the playoffs last season. I was hoping we might have a 60-win season on our hands in 09-10. Having home court in the first two rounds last spring was huge. Oh man, if only the Rockets could’ve upset the Lakers in the 2nd round, the Nugs would’ve had home court for the WCF too.
The Nuggets’ best chance of making it to the Finals is to have home court, and they’re gonna need at least 60 wins to compete for that. 54-28 is not going to be good enough this year.
What we’ve seen so far seems to indicate that this is not a 60-win team.
bulls 72 wins 10 losses
when chicago set the all time record for victories one of their defeats came against denver. nuggets had the worst record in the history of their franchise at the time. a great team will have a bad game and lose to a bad team. THE T-WOLVES GAME IS NOT THE SAME THING. there have been a pattern of bad habits that go back to last season. 3 point shooting was one and is still a problem. melo changed his game and averages 2.6 3 point attempts per game. earl is averaging 5.9 attempts. when he first went into the nets game the first time he touched the ball he shot a 3 pointer. there is a time and a place for everything and earl has not figured it out yet or he does not care. smith needs to be in the starting line up or denver needs to trade him. nuggets have an 8 player rotation and it needs to be at least 9. the 3 player rotation at the center and power forward position needs to go to 4. the 2 ideas behind it was to give andersen more minutes and give nene a chance at forward. neither one has worked out. kmart played 17 straight minutes to start the t-wolves game. have graham back up kmart and andersen back up nene. shorter minutes at a time will increase energy and effort. it seems like nene, kmart and andersen try to ration their fouls by playing less aggressive. three keys to denver winning is rebounding, free throw shooting and executing the half court offense. last season denver had the most free throw attemps, 2nd in free throws made and 20th in %. this season they are 1st in attemps, 1st in makes and 2nd in %. last season denver was 15th in team rebounding and now they are 17th. going to a 4 player rotation at center and power forward may help. nothing wrong with a 3 point shot as long as it is in the context of the half court offense. right now denver has improved in only one of three areas they need to excel in. rebounding and half court execution are doable if the players are willing to work.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
Can't be silent any longer
You keep posting this crazy idea that Joey Graham should play at the 4. A guy who is a natural 2 and floats to a 3 and you want him to play the 4? I don’t understand what makes you think Nene can never be a successful 4 but you think Graham can be. He’s a career 3 reb and .11 blocks per game average. He’s 6’7" 225 lbs. Let me ask you something how many successful 6’7" power forwards do you know of in this league? I agree that the three man big rotation is not going to work because it will wear our guys down and will hurt us at the end of the season but Graham is not the answer. What about when we play the Lakers? Would you have Graham defend Pau or Bynum or even Odom for that matter? If we were silly enough to insert him at the 4 guess where every team is going to go with the ball every possesion, right at the post, right at Graham and they are going to dominate him. I’d rather have Malik Allen, Renaldo “the most overhyped D Stiffs player of all time” Balkman or hell even Petro at the 4 than Graham, that would just be begging teams to dominate us. You talk all season long about how we need to rebound to win and you want to insert Graham at the 4? Ugh
dejuan blair
how is that for a 6’7" player that can rebound AND he has not been in the league for 20 games yet. there are many posts on this web site about how people feel about a 6’7" rebounder that denver and other teams past up in the draft. there is a difference between being a starter at power forward and a back up. check out graham’s free throw percentage. it is 89% and he is over 80+% for his career. graham was brought in to replace kleiza a 6’8" player that subbed at combo forward. graham can put the ball on the floor, drive to the basket, draw a foul AND convert the free throws. that is one thing nene cannot do. nene has post moves which means he can score with his back to the basket. nene has an accurate SET SHOT from 15 feet. that is the only move he has to score facing the basket besides dunking the ball. he has a big advantage against slower centers. nene does not hold his ground when setting a pick because he does not like to take the contact. one of the best pick and roll combos in the history of the game was stockton to malone. with players like billups and lawson denver should be doing that several times a night with nene. he is not the defender kmart is on the perimeter or defending the pick and roll. very few players in the nba can go one on one with dirk, amar’e, garnett and players like that. kmart can. allen, petro or balkman will not block out any better then graham on defense. graham knows how to set a pick. if you had to choose player to run in to from denver’s bench which guy would you choose? if the game was on the line and you had to pick between balkman, allen, petro or graham to shoot free throws which guy will you choose? last season on the first play on offense of the first play off game nene goes the wrong way. he was the starting center for 78 games and he does not know the play. what can you expect from him when he is playing 2 different positions? his first half stat line from the gs game is 14 points, 9 rebounds. the third quarter he had 4 points and 3 rebounds. since the season started i have watched and kept track of his play with the 3 player rotation at center and power forward. in general he gets off to a great start and his production tails off. that does not make nene a bad guy or an inherently evil person. that also does not mean i hate him or am ripping the way he plays. in order to have the 3 player rotation for the bigs kmart is forced to play at least 14 minutes to start the game. nene and kmart both have a history of leg injuries. with 64 more games to go just exactly how much longer does denver stick with a 3 player rotation? i can see going with 4 players in the first half specifically in the second quarter. if needed shorten it to 3 players in the second half depending on the opponent or the circumstances of the particular game. to sum it up nene has his hands full being a starting center in the nba. he has a history of injury and illness. he is not tearing up the nba like a lot of people thought he would at forward, nene and me included. after the t-wolves game coach karl had a major issue with effort and energy. people think andersen’s production from last season has dropped off. will limiting the duration of how many minutes are played at any one time increase their overall production during the game?
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
Dejuan has 40 lbs on Graham
And since when does a power forward put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket. I’d rather have one who has one of the quickest post games in the League, Nene, has the body to box out opposing 4’s, nene, and actually has a chance to defend against opposing 4’s, nene. You say Nene can’t defend the likes of Amare, Garnett, and Dirk, so then when Graham is in you expect him to do a better job then Nene would? Like I said I agree the 4 man rotation is needed at 4 and 5 but Graham is not a 4 in any way. I wouldn’t want graham,, patro, allen or balkman to be at the line with the game on the line, luckily for us none of them ever wil be because none of them would be in the game if it were on the line so its a moot point to bring up. I disagree with you about Nene but what I was interested in was how you can defend the stance that Graham would be useful in the 4, citing examples like Kleiza, who performed horribly in that role, and Grahams ability to be perform as a 3 or 2 (driving to the basket foul line etc) don’t really justify how he can be successful at the four, I still fail to see how he rebounds, plays better in the post or sets a pick and roll better than even Petro or Allen
try checking your facts
first read the nba scouting draft report on gram from DRAFT EXPRESS. here are some highlights- impressive sculpted body….at 6’7" and 225 lbs., he looks like he can play in the nfl…..first tier athleticism and superior strength……uses his leaping ability and long wing span to convert with ease near the basket……where graham’s potential really shows is on the defensive end. HE IS A CONVERTED POWER FORWARD, AND HIS TENDENCEY TOWARDS PHYSICAL PLAY COULD ALLOW HIM TO DEVELOP INTO AN ABSOLUTE TERROR ON THE DEFENSIVE END. there are other examples of 6;7" power forwards in the nba. the nba leading rebounder is 6’7" gerald wallace of charlotte. shawn marion has been in the nba for 10 years and has a 9.9 rebound per game average. jason maxiel 6’7" plays forward AND center for detroit. paul milsap is 6’8" and plays power forward for utah and has a career rebounding average of 6.4 per game. there in a stat in the nba called PER 36 MINUTES. graham has a career 3 rebounds while playing 17 minutes. for 36 minutes it comes out to 6.4 rebounds. melo has a career 36 minute per game average. his career rebounding average is 6.1. kmart career minutes per game average is 34 twice of graham’s average. his career rebound average is 7.1. graham is a better rebounder than melo and right behind kmart for per 36 minute average. CHECK THE STATS YOURSELF. graham can defend players on the perimeter because he can also play the 2 and 3 positions. you used the example of lamar odom and the lakers. lakers run the triangle offense. odom play a position called the point forward. scottie pippen played the position with the bulls. denver played a back to back against the lakers in the preseason. the first game odom took kmart on the perimeter and drilled 3 pointers. kmart struggles with odom on the perimeter what do you think nene will do? anytime you want to see a power forward drive to the basket watch dallas play. dirk will be on the perimeter if you do not play on him he hits a 3 ball. get to close and he drives to the basket. last season against the suns nene was kicked out of the game and suspended for the following one because he allowed louis amudson to get inside his head. nene cannot even jog down the court against a 6’9" white guy that comes off the bench without losing his composure. the reason for that he has NO BASKETBALL I Q. he comes from brazil and started out playing soccer. he relies on his athleticism instead of the fundamentals. graham played high school basketball in the united states. he played 2 years at central florida and transfered to oklahoma state. he had a red shirt year and played 2 years. that is playing and practicing 3 years for hall of fame coach eddie sutton. he competed for 2 years in the big 12 conference which is where chauncey billups had played. graham is a fundamentally sound, physical player with a basketball iq. a good place for you to start is checking stats and facts. no wonder you fail to see anything objectively because you do not know what you are talking about. playing the four graham has been there and done that before he was ever in the nba. arron afflalo was brought in to replace dahtay jones. jones is an inch taller and had a 42’ vertical leap. afflalo does not jump as high but has done a better job. graham was brought in to replace kleiza. the one thing i will agree with you is i thought lk sucked. graham is not going to be shooting 3 pointers then jogging down the court instead of following his shot. graham can succeed where kleiza failed just like afflalo did with jones. dejuan has 40 lbs., on graham. graham has 2 acl’s and dejuan has none. i have cited blair, wallace, marion, maxiel, kleiza and milsap as all under sized players that can play and compete at power forward. it happens all the time in the nba going back ten years with the start of shawn marion’s career. i understand where the idea sounds silly and crazy to you because you do not know what you are talking about. the idea is not silly and crazy to basketball hall of famers like joe dumars, larry brown and jerry sloan. the idea is not silly and crazy to coaches like greg popovich and mike d’antoni. you cannot see it . why am i not surprised?
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
nba leading rebounder
dwight howard 12.3 rpg recently over took gerald wallace 11.6 rpg. my bad.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
jones vertical leap
42" not 42’. my bad.
pick up a calf every day pretty soon you will be picking up a cow
Don't mean to get into the middle of this but
Amen about Balkman. I like the guy, budespitees he really deserve 20 minutes a game? Maybe he wouldn’t be so awesome as an impact player if he was in the game for a long period of time.
Maybe George Karl knows his team better than we do…
Ok. Continue.
by SternfluffsKobe on Dec 2, 2009 1:20 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
The biggest problem imo
is like Runningdonut said, this isn’t just one game, it’s the way we have been playing for the entire season. We didn’t even have a chance against the Hawks or Heat, both teams that arn’t really THAT good. We barely escaped the Bulls, lost to the Bucks, lost to the Clippers, etc. But imo, the way we played the Heat and Hawks was especially dishearting because we played them like we do against the Lakers most of the time, which is with no heart or fight. This all points towards a lack of discipline, and that’s on the coach. I’m tired of people saying they are tired of hearing people jump on Karl, yet here we are with some obvious problems that need to be solved, and last time I checked the head coach is in charge of solving the problems. I’m definatly not hitting the panic button, or even close, because I know the type of negative energy George harnesses over this team, and has for a while. But lets face it, George isn’t going to bring us a title, so why do we continue to defend him and ask for his extention with this club if our aspirations are a title? Thats the question you need to ask yourself.
Totally
I hear what you’re saying. And am in agreement about the George Karl needing to discipline this team and that that is absolutely on him. But what does Karl need to do to keep just plain silly mistakes from happening on the court. I’m not a big believer that in basketball a coach can “make” his team hustle, you know? When Karl is reportedly saying in the huddle, “We need to stop taking shots at the top of the shot clock, we need to stay disciplined in holding our offensive and defensive rebounding positions and we need to stay aware and get to the help side on d quicker”…(don’t know why i used quotes, cause i just paraphrased)
Coaches coach, and OF COURSE Karl needs to shoulder that responsibility, of course he does. But players play. They need to start commiting to execution and stop setling for he lazy way out. On offense and defense. This game is about hustle for the most part. at least the parts that arent marked on a stat sheet, and usually if you look at the team who “hustles” thats usually the intangible that wins games…
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