Can we end the LeBron/D-Wade vs. Melo debate now?...
by Andrew Feinstein on Mar 15, 2009 9:28 AM MDT
41 comments
More than at any other time in their respective careers, this past week showed me how wide the delta is between the games of LeBron James and Dwyane Wade and that of their fellow 2003 draftee, Carmelo Anthony.Beginning last Friday, all three players' teams desperately needed to win every game as home court advantage was (and still is) on the line. LeBron's Cavaliers are fighting for the NBA's best overall record, Wade's Heat for home court in the first round and Melo's Nuggets for home court in possibly two playoff rounds.
During this time span, LeBron and Wade have gone above and beyond the call of duty to keep their teams positioned for playoff success, each leading their respective teams to four wins in five games. Meanwhile, Melo's Nuggets lost three of five, and the two wins were home games against two of the NBA's worst teams...each of whom just happened to be without their best player to boot.
In his last four games (all wins), LeBron James put up three triple-doubles, including Tuesday night when his Cavaliers found themselves down 19 points to the Clippers with nine minutes to go in the fourth quarter. And in the fourth game - Friday night at Sacramento - in place of a triple-double LeBron had 51 points, nine assists, three blocks and two steals while leading the Cavaliers to yet another come-from-behind victory. With his Cavs down 14 to the Kings in the final period, LeBron decided to turn on the jets and go for 22 fourth quarter and overtime points combined. I don't remember exactly what Melo did while the Nuggets were losing in Sacramento five days earlier, but he certainly didn't will them to victory like LeBron did.
Meanwhile, Wade had another fabulous week. Yesterday morning I watched Wade single-handily take down the superior Utah Jazz in three overtimes. Wade needed 50 points, 10 rebounds and nine assists to get the job done, in addition to numerous dives to the floor to secure a loose ball and/or cause a steal or loose ball. And three days ago, Wade led the Heat to victory over the NBA Champion Boston Celtics with a 32-point, seven assists and four steals effort, two days removed from a 48-point, 12 assists, six rebounds, four steals and three blocks effort in leading the Heat to victory over the Chicago Bulls.
During this same time span, Melo hasn't shot the ball over 50% once. Hasn't pulled down more than seven rebounds in a single game. Hasn't dished out more than three assists once. Hasn't managed a steal or a block in two of the five games. And has gotten to the free throw line an average of 5.4 times per game.
I'm bringing this up because in the comments, virtual chats and emails written by the readers of this blog I continue to read things like: "if only Melo played the game like LeBron and D-Wade." Additionally, we have our seemingly annual ESPN.com piece (this time written by Stephen A. Smith) asking why Melo hasn't matched the success of his fellow 2003 draftees LeBron James and Dwyane Wade.
What's the point? The point is that with his sixth NBA season about to conclude, Nuggets Nation needs to accept that Carmelo Anthony will never be in the class of LeBron James or Dwyane Wade and it's time to stop bringing it up. Does this mean drafting Melo third was a bad idea? Absolutely not. Anytime you get a bona fide All-Star you have nothing to complain about. Does this mean that a team with Melo will never win? Double absolutely not. And as I've said on this blog many times before, I cringe to think of a Nuggets team without Melo. After all, the Nuggets have made five (and soon to be six) straight playoff appearances after an eight-season playoff drought for a reason, and we should always keep that in mind when discussing Melo's value to the team.
Simply put (and pardon the cliche), comparing LeBron/Wade to Melo is comparing apples to oranges. And rather than wish for Melo to develop into a LeBron/Wade-calibre player, we should start looking at him as a piece in the Nuggets puzzle, not the solution to the puzzle (if that makes sense). You can compare LeBron and Wade to the likes of Magic, Larry, Michael and Kobe - players so unbelievably good, you only need to type their first names. But the Melo comparisons should be kept to the likes of other shoot-first offensive threats such as Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Alex English, Dominique Wilkins, Mark Aguirre, Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson and Antoine Walker. Of that group, only Dantley, Aguirre and Walker competed for a championship and only Aguirre and Walker won one, but as the third option late in their careers after their skills had diminished (thanks largely to poor off-season conditioning, by the way).
This doesn't mean Melo won't compete for a championship sooner than his predecessors did and won't do so at the peak of his talents. It just means that if we as Nuggets fans think Melo is carrying the team to a championship on his own, we're fooling ourselves. Six NBA seasons is a pretty good sample size. Fortunately for Nuggets fans, Melo has players around him that could be the right pieces for a championship run in Chauncey Billups, Nene and J.R. Smith. I'd take Chauncey, Nene and J.R. over LeBron or Wade's top-three teammates any day of the week. But because Melo is who he is - an All-Star but not a superstar - the Nuggets clearly need another piece or two, or simply more depth (and probably a different coach) to get to the promised land.
So let's end the LeBron/D-Wade vs. Melo comparisons and just be glad that with the Nuggets third pick in 2003, we scored a perennial All-Star and not another Raef LaFrentz.
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Here are three problems with you mentioning melo vs lebron wade talks.
1. Melo has been fighting injuries
2. Had a short summer
3. Plays IN THE WEST.
by Riso on Mar 15, 2009 11:25 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by E on Mar 15, 2009 11:27 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Watch a game and compare their usage to Melos. Melo gets most of his assists from cutters going to the basket while standing still, LeBron/Wade drive and kick or unleash alley oops. As Wade said in a recent interview, He along with LeBron were lucky to be placed in a organisation where the ball was in their hands as creators from their rookie years. Melo was unlucky to be placed in a situation where the ball was permanently taken out of his hands when Iverson came.
There is a large percentage of Cleveland/Miami/Laker plays where the ball is never out of LeBron/Wade/Kobes hands. In Denver the Fans hate seeing Melo do this, and Melo (as well as jr smith) still has an ISO mentality when the ball is in his hands- a side-effect of the iverson era.
by Anonymous on Mar 15, 2009 11:58 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
It used to be sad to see how much better Wade and to a lesser extent LeBron is, but I've gotten over it.
Thank God for Chauncey. Melo will still probably choke in the playoffs.
And to the turdball that is crying about the West and how Melo will go back to scoring 30 when he's healthy.. shut the hell up. He's made huge strides this year to quit focusing on jacking up bulk shots. He's becoming an overall player, which is what Wade and LeBron already were.. but they can keep their points up while also doing other things. Melo can't.
So, do you want buckets? Or do you want defense? He can't provide both consistently. He was a Glenn Robinson/Antoine Walker hybrid up until this year. But with career numbers that will end up around 23/8/5 he's playing more like his hero Bernard King.. and that's fun to watch.
by My name is Luke. on Mar 15, 2009 12:07 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Lebron's block on J Rich was a huge time foul that should have been called. And given the past couple seasons where the home team gets practically all the whistles. (See Utah Jazz) I was very surprised it wasn't. But it's Lebron and wasn't called, and ultimately put the nail in Phoenix's coffin.
by emptytwo629 on Mar 15, 2009 1:33 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Why is it when Melo has diversified his game so much this year (we all rightfully complained about that last year) he still get's pounded on? Melo threw about 3 or 4 fantastic passes to cutters last night and yet we see a post about how much he's not carrying the team.
Lebron has had HORRIBLE shooting nights this year...yet you don't see people constantly piling on him. D-Wade had a TERRIBLE year last year (all be it on an awful team) but he's held up as a god.
Melo's injuries have contributed to his poor shooting, but his rebounding and assists are much better.
Dunno....maybe someone else can explain this to me.
by Jeff on Mar 15, 2009 4:39 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Mar 15, 2009 6:16 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by nuffsaid on Mar 15, 2009 6:29 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Additionally, Milwaukee beat the Celts and the Bulls took the Heat to 2OT last week. Now those two Nugget losses don't look soo bad. Just the one to Sacramento is totally inexcusable and we'll avenge the beat down we received at the hands of the Nets this week.
by emptytwo629 on Mar 15, 2009 7:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
And, as the other posters have discussed, the discussion has many aspects.
My two cents boils down to this: LeBron and D-Wayde will go down as some of the very best in ever in basketball, and, anyone compared to them barring a select handful throughout history would fall short.
Oh, and all three have had short summers, and, I'm sure that those other two have nagging injuries as well.
And, granted, the East as a whole sucks, I don't see the Cavs losing to Sacramento and getting blown out by 600 points to the Nets.
by GeneralPhysician on Mar 15, 2009 7:35 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
We are not as proud of him as Miami of Wade or Cavs of Bron.
I really believe Melo can be at Wade's level in next year or in 2010 if Billups has a possitive impact on him.
Unfortunately, he will never be at Bron's level...
by sepioes on Mar 15, 2009 8:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by Goldennugget on Mar 15, 2009 8:49 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Every year he has held his own. This year he has had injuries and has had to deal with a different point guard and to work on other areas of his game. Which is a good thing.
Let just give him a break. See what happens in the playoff and hope that from now to the end of the season he can dominate the game as needed because that will be invaluable in the playoffs. Until then we'll have to see.
We have alot to be grateful for.
by Anonymous on Mar 15, 2009 9:01 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by CBG on Mar 15, 2009 11:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by josh K on Mar 15, 2009 11:30 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by andrew fisher on Mar 16, 2009 12:58 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by Jack on Mar 16, 2009 1:09 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by Jack on Mar 16, 2009 1:15 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Melo will recover from this season, but I'm willing to admit that he's nowhere close to perfect. I think he just needs to believe that the organization he's with wants to win as well.
Bron and Wade have situations that are quite different from Melo's. Both players have young coaches with fresh philosophies. And they have coaches that put the balls in their hands and gives the players surrounding them instructions on how to play off of them.
Wade happens to be on garbage team with a young coach so he gets free reign to tear it up each night. Lebron is obviously the cream of the crop, but he also has a young coach who looks to his star's strengths as a guideline. The Cavs organization also put talent around LeBron that plays to his strength. Playing in the East obviously doesn't hurt. Wade is obviously talented, but all of this MVP talk for a guy who's team has been "tearing it up lately" but has a record of 36-30 makes me want to vomit a little. The difference between LeBron and Wade is that LeBron does his damage within a system and Wade does his dirt freelance (Of course, LeBron can fly solo if he so chooses). In both cases, the players have Young coaches who want to see there respective stars succeed. Remember when Paul Silas was coaching the Cavs? Now they have injected more youth. The Heat had a "young" coach in Stan Van Gundy, then he was forced out so Pat Riley could take the credit. Now, the Heat are back to a young coach. In contrast, Melo Has had an organization that has done everything to keep the ball out of Melo's hands as a a distributor. I think this is a mistake. I think Carmelo is the best passing forward not named LeBron. As for Melo's new coach... ehh.
LeBron and Wade also different treatment from the league. Wade is notorious for living at the line with the help of officials (Donoghy reprises the role of guardian angel for Wade on YouTube) and the NBA is literally looking to revise their "traveling" rules (to suit James). No, I'm not joking. Meanwhile, Melo is here on the Stiff List because the refs don't call the fouls when he's hacked down the lane. And to make things worse, they'll also throw multiple charge calls to up Melo's turnovers. I'm not saying that the refs have a special assignment to hold Melo back. But I would argue that the refs might just have a special assignment to boost the games of Wade and LeBron.
I will also point out that Melo has had his most injury-riddled season this year. Fortunately or unfortunately, when Melo goes down it's not for long. He's never had the opportunity to just shut down and tank the second half on a season as Wade has. The elbow injuries seem odd and the broken hand was highly unexpected, but Melo has been a trooper and has never shown any desire ride the bench for a check. Sometimes I think he should rest more though. I remember when Lebron had issues with his hand and was seen on the bench clapping and laughing it up with teammates for what seemed like weeks. When questioned about his condition in relation to his actions on the bench, he explained to the media that he knows his body better than anyone and that he'll be back when he's 100%. Maybe Melo needs to learn when to shut it down when his body needs it.
Something I've always had a problem with, particularly with recent seasons, is folks continually saying how fat Melo his and how poor his conditioning is. First of all, no one here knows the first thing about Melo's workout/conditioning plan. Secondly, he's been playing nearly 4 years of basketball without rest. Couple that with the fact that since '05 he's been USA Basketball's best player overall and that let's me know that this guys is not out of shape. I really don't know where the "fat" part is coming from. I know his face is round, but he is obviously slimmer than "Big Baby" Davis or Antoine Walker. The average NBA player isn't etched in stone anyway.
I could go on for days about this but I'll try to round this out fairly quickly.
Remember that Melo went from averaging 20.8 ppg in his second season and then 26.5 in his third and 28.9 in his 4th. Do confuse what he is able to do now with what he is capable of doing when 100%. Also remember that Melo was averaging about 18 ppg this season before the trade and fractured hand and all that jazz. He's now up to 22 ppg. He's been putting in work.
I've always said that Melo would thrive more in an actual system that is tailored to the game of a versatile point forward. Otherwise Melo needs to be taught and trusted to create more. I do find it disheartening that Melo has yet to be officially named team captain, yet he was quickly named a co-captain of Team USA with two other guys. Sure it's not NBA basketball, but a system tailored to Melo's strengths with a leadership role being applied resulted in the best basketball I've seen him play.
So basically, until LeBron gets his ring(s) and it's all said and done, no this debate is not over. People, including myself, wrote D-Wade off last season. Now he's back. I honestly believe that Melo is fully capable of doing the same. Time will tell.
by E on Mar 16, 2009 2:16 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I do understand that you like to write long comment to make sure that everyone out there can see you point and maybe change their mind about some stuff you share with us but Dude let me tell you something straight, Melo isn't from the same mould as LB23 and Flash, theses 2 dudes work hard each summer on not just being a superstar ball player, nope they work hard to become the best player in the game and win NBA ring, the reason why Melo is so good with the USA team is because the system suit pretty well his game but when I see Flash be able to come from the bench last summer and still finish as the top scorer and best player in the team, I say this is about the work you put on your game to become a more dominant and consistent player not just a scorer who can even get 8Rpg....
No disrespect to Melo, because he is one of the best player in the league and an awesome FIBA player but he is not at LB23 and Flash level and I don't thing he will ever be...
God bless the Nuggets
by The Peace Blogger on Mar 16, 2009 3:53 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Let me close on saying that I agree with you that the system you play in and the coach you play for make can make a different on how you respond and play your game. The same thing happen with the debate around CP3 and DWill on who is the better point guard in the game today, with everybody going for CP3 most of the time but what most people forgot is that both of them play in a different system which made CP3 playing in a system where he can enjoy the freedonm to do what he want as long as his team win when on the other side DWill needed a year (his rookie one) to understand J. Sloan system and play through it which ultimately affect their numbers and make CP3 look like the better player. But when you look at it closely you see that first Utah since both players were drafted are by far the better team and that DWill seem to be a huge hurdle for CP3 to jump over (look at their head 2 head)....
My point here is that "maybe" Melo would be a better player in a different system or with another coach, where the ball would be more often in his hand for him to make more play instead to wait for someone to pass him the ball.
I maybe wrong but here 2 similar case of player who went to the roof with a new system and a new coach :
Devin Harris & Charlie Villanueva
Take care...
by The Peace Blogger on Mar 16, 2009 4:07 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by Maxie Miner on Mar 16, 2009 8:58 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
What about Avery Johnson.
He has my vote for a future new Nuggets coach.
by Anonymous on Mar 16, 2009 9:12 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Mar 16, 2009 9:15 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Another problem is that Melo truly believes he's better than he is, leading to his consistent no pass, dribble once or twice, stutterstep and throw up a brick mentality. Quite frankly he believes he can lead a team to victory without putting in the work ethic or buying into the team concept. Unfortunately he's just not good enough to do that and the only one who seems to not know it is him.
Don't get me wrong, he's still good, and we wouldn't be as good without him, but there are some days where I wonder if he's even an all-star. There are days when there's no question that he is, but there are too many days where you kind of look at him and how he plays and you have to wonder what is up with him.
I hope he wins a championship with the Nugs, because I love the Nugs, but I'm glad that Andrew wrote this, because in my opinion it's about 4.5 years late.
Andrew - great blog - thanks a lot for the dedication.
by grantarchy on Mar 16, 2009 10:06 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
If only Melo could play the Wizard in the 1st round of the playoffs 3 years in a row. Bottom line is Melo has a bad rap w/ the media and PR so he will never be "good enough"
Melo is the only one to have made the playoffs all of his years in the leauge, he is a clutch shooter (how many game winners does lbj have) One playoff series win and everyone will change their tune.
I also think it's valid to point out that these 3 play different positions. Wade and James are face up guards, while Melo is a back to the basket post player.
Melo is already great, he's not LBJ or Wade, he is Carmelo Anthony. As long as he keeps that in his head, he'll be alright!
by melonugg on Mar 16, 2009 10:15 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
DUI's, weed, hanging out with thugs in "stop snitchin" videos, punching Mardy Collins, etc. He's actually had a pretty embarrassing career thus far.
Compare and contrast that with the career paths of D-Wade (Marquette grad, zero legal issues) and LeBron (zero legal run-in's aside from his mom getting a Hummer or something while he was still in high school)
by Eric K on Mar 16, 2009 10:31 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
1.) Melo is a forward, LeBron and Wade are guards! Melo does not get the ball enough to create for his teammates.
2.) Karl's "system" consists of several different types of iso's and a pick and roll every once in a while. No real plays.
3.) Melo's been playing ball for 4 years straight and is hurt this year.
4.) Melo's all around game has improved this year.
5.) Melo gets the benefit of very few calls. I know he shoots a lot of jump shots (and why wouldn't he with his stroke), but he spends a lot of time in the paint, too. He's not the NBAs golden child like LeBron and Wade.
6.) Melo does need to be more assertive, go up strong, and not expect the call.
7.) 3PT shooting:
Melo: 05'-06'-24.3%, 06'-07'-26.9%, 07'-08'-35.4%, 08'-09'-37.8%
Pierce for his career: 36.5%
Look's like Melo's improving there, too.
Bottom line, he's not LeBron, he's not Wade . . . he's a different player in a different position. He should never have been compared to the other two. He's in a system that doesn't fit him at all and he's still a career: 24/6/3 guy and improving. He's a hell of a player! No reason he can't be 25/10/5 if the team would ever lose Karl.
by Anonymous on Mar 16, 2009 10:40 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
On an unrelated note, who is going to be the one to start up cutlerisacrybaby.com?
by Zachm219 on Mar 16, 2009 10:50 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Melo does have a bad rap and it's not just w/ the media. Players do pullups off Melos arms and he doesn't get the calls. Instead they give him some bs offensive call on the other end.
I'm personally glad he punched the knick, it showed me he would stand up for his teammates. I would have been more upset if he did nothing at all.
Like I said, one good playoff push and all this nonsense will disapear. I can already hear it now - "wow melos has really turned is game/life around" MEDIA HYPE!
by melonugg on Mar 16, 2009 11:01 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
He made steady improvements when 'Dre was here to the point that, in the first 30 games of '06-'07, he was the best player in the league (yes the brawl that changed everything and 15 games out washis fault . . . NBA is so hypocritical, 2 games for Randolph last month? WTF).
Then they trade for AI and everything became iso's and take your shot before any and everyone else does.
Now Chauncy's here and, for the first time under Karl, the team is preaching defense. He's figuring out this too. Wait until next year, he will be 25/10/5.
by Anonymous on Mar 16, 2009 11:01 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Until he achieves these goals he will always be a step below Wade and Lebron.
After all, isn't this what the NBA is *really* all about?
by Do We Have Any Plays? on Mar 16, 2009 11:31 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
That is the biggest difference and you could see it when he was an Orangemen.
He is a smooth scorer, capabale rebounder but does not show the drive or killer instinct it takes to reach that "upper echelon" of players.
by Anonymous on Mar 16, 2009 2:37 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Trade him.
by galoshes on Mar 16, 2009 2:53 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Grantarchy said "Another problem is that Melo truly believes he's better than he is" and that's it in a nutshell. He looks at himself, then looks at Wade and LeBron, and he sees no difference. Meanwhile, Wade looks at himself, then Jordan, and Works harder. LeBron looks at Magic, and tries to add to his game. It's about wanting to improve, and that's an urge our guy doesn't have.
I think it was on this very blog where I read how Melo wanted to make some changes this year... so he hired a new PR firm. Kobe hires staff to help him with his health, his shot, etc. Wade and LBJ stay fit year round, especially in the off season. Even those of us who love the guy have to ask: How often does Melo hit the weight room in the off season? How about DURING the season? Stephen Jackson does an hour of weights after practice and put himself on a diet. he's older, and less naturally gifted than Melo, but he's in better shape and wants to improve--this, a year after he got his big contract!
It's not about the position he plays or the conference he's a part of, it's about effort and what you want out of yourself. Melo is content, Wade and LBJ aren't. It doesn't make Melo a villain.
by keeperdesign on Mar 16, 2009 3:14 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Mar 16, 2009 4:21 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
D-Wade is not as squeeky clean as you want to believe either. He just has a better PR rep if you ask me.
LeBron is amazing. I would be too if I could travel on every trip to the paint. He has the refs looking the other way all the time. Stern wants to make sure his golden egg goose stays spotless even on the court. If it were Lebron in the fight with the Knicks, they would have suspended whoever was on the recieving end of an LBJ knuckle sandwich, not Lebron.
Nate Robinson was a bigger factor in that fight than Melo, and he gets his own Kryptonite colored Jersey for All-Star weekend. He has more market-ability than Melo, because he's 5'2" and can dunk. It's funny how Stern's leagu works huh?
by joelsopinion on Mar 16, 2009 4:32 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I like Jeff Van GUNDY
by 1NUGS1 on Mar 16, 2009 5:22 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
remember when lebron went to the finals? yeah yeah big deal he has been to the finals and melo has not been out of the first round, but look back, cavs were swept in what was the spurs easiest series of the playoffs, they had a tougher time against the nuggets in the first round! hmm the first round tougher then the finals? yeah thats what happens when the conferences are so out of wack, if the cavs had been in the west, their 50 wins would have been down to the same 45 the nuggets had, then they could have been swept in the first round. If the heat were in the west this year, they would not even be in the playoffs. then there is the issue of teammates, lebrons points and boards would go down if he was playin with nene, martin, and camby, god don't even mention iverson, don't forget melo used to average 29 a game, he can score with the best of them, he plays on a team that doesn't just give him the ball and have him do everything
not to mention lebron plays more minutes per game so that gives his stats a bump, and both of those guys are given every call by the league-wade's finals mvp was a joke, again if that team was in the west no way they woulda won
by Anonymous on Mar 16, 2009 6:33 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2005.html
by Anonymous on Mar 17, 2009 7:28 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
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