This is a good trade for both teams...
by Andrew Feinstein on Nov 3, 2008 9:33 AM MST
65 comments
For those of you who think this trade came out of the blue, read the Denver Stiffs August 11th article on trading Allen Iverson. At that time, I suggested an AI-for-Chauncey Billups-and-Antonio McDyess-trade and gave it a 5% chance of happening. And now today, according to ESPN's Stephen A. Smith, the deal is almost done.If only I could predict stocks this well!
If true - and as much as I hate to see AI leave Denver - this is a good trade for both teams.
Even though the Allen Iverson/Carmelo Anthony experiment sort of worked, it's become clear to most of us that they weren't going to win a championship together. Especially not this season. And by bringing in Billups and McDyess, the Nuggets now become a more traditionally constructed basketball team.
In fact, if George Karl knows what he's doing (which remains to be seen), he has a chance to replicate the success of the recent era of the Pistons by starting Billups and J.R. Smith together a la Billups and Rip Hamilton, with Nene and Kenyon Martin taking on the Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace undersized but effective front court and Melo playing the Tayshaun Prince small forward position. Of course, this requires preaching defense which will be a tall order over the entire season.
Adding Billups enables the Nuggets to spread the floor and gives them a better defensive presence in the backcourt. Moreover, Billups will be a good setup guy for Melo and give Melo a reliable outside shooting option when those double teams come. And defensively, after seeing Kobe Bryant torch the short Nuggets guards on Saturday night, I think we all agree that the Nuggets needed more size and defensive toughness at the guard spot.
As far as adding McDyess goes, ESPN's Ric Bucher is reporting that - even though McDyess likes Denver - he may want to retire before making another move in his career and this is why the deal isn't done yet. Huh? Assuming the deal gets worked out and McDyess comes to Denver for his third stint with the Nuggets, he's a great insurance policy for the oft-injured Nene and K-Mart (although McDyess is practically guaranteed to get injured again once he's in a Nuggets uniform per the Nuggets power forward curse...I'm just saying).
With Billups and McDyess back in town, I see the Nuggets hanging on to their 8th seed (at least) in the playoff race and remaining competitive among the NBA's best teams, but still don't see a championship coming our way with this squad. Billups is on the wrong side of 30 and McDyess is just a backup now. Even worse, Billups is on the books for two more seasons beyond this one meaning that if this new incarnation of the Nuggets doesn't work out, we won't have the cap space flexibility to right the ship. In other words, we're casting our lot in with K-Mart and Chauncey for the next three seasons. However, if Billups can somehow return to the "Mr. Big Shot" version of himself from two seasons ago, the Nuggets could be pretty dangerous in the half court game.
For AI and the Pistons, this is deal works out well for them, too. Detroit was going nowhere as presently constructed and in the Eastern Conference, AI is much closer to returning to the NBA Finals than he was with the Nuggets out West. Also, in Detroit AI can go back to being the primary scorer, a role he's more comfortable with, even though he did a good job in my opinion of deferring to Melo in Denver.
So it looks like the brief AI era has come to an end in Denver. As a Nugget, AI played his heart out. He kept the team afloat after the Melo and J.R. suspensions in 2006 and seemed willing and able to fit in with his teammates and let the game come to him. For those of us fortunate enough to watch him play regularly in person, its remarkable how good he really is. For whatever reason, television just doesn't capture AI's effort, talent and quickness. Also, let the record state that bringing AI into Denver in the first place was worth the gamble. The Nuggets had perhaps their deepest and most talented roster in franchise history last season but just couldn't get it done (hence www.firegeorgekarl.com's creation) and its time to move on.
AI will be missed. Sorely missed. But this is a good trade for both teams.
0 recs |
65 comments
Email
Print
Comments
by Mike B on Nov 3, 2008 9:45 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Jon-Michael on Nov 3, 2008 9:49 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 9:50 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by GeneralPhysician on Nov 3, 2008 9:51 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
PG- Chauncey
SG- JR
SF- Melo
PF- Kmart
C- Nene
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 10:03 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 10:09 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
As it's being reported, it is a good trade for both teams, even though Iverson and Rip are a bit of the same player.
Detroit obviously wants to dump the last two years of Billups contract, and Denver needs a PG for Melo and Nene.
I'll start watching De-troit Basket-ball games on the League Pass instead of Nuggets games, and will likely check in here far less often, but I wish y'all luck. You've got a nice group of young players, and a nice future.
But I'm happy Iverson is going to a squad with better prospects to Win Now. And I'm looking forward to Bubbachuck/Rasheed chest bumps.
I've still got the Nuggets/Warriors semi-elimination game on my TiVo, and I'll keep it there for a while so I can remember the squad at its best.
Too bad Kroenke wouldn't pony up the luxury tax for one more year to bring back Camby and Iverson. I still think they could've gone deep into the playoffs. But it ain't my money.
And if Chauncey still has life in his body, you could do well. Plus, it'll mean J.R. Smith should start!
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 10:12 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
One thing is for sure. The Nuggets weren't going anywhere with the old roster, and i think the new roster at least briongs some optimism.
Iverson was great while he was here. He will be missed.
by John on Nov 3, 2008 10:13 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by brent on Nov 3, 2008 10:17 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Excellent trade for the Nuggets even though it makes them a little older and removes cap flexibility since Billups is on the hook at til at least 2011, but this provides size, passing and defense and shooting in the backcourt. Opens up minutes for JR, LK and Balkman/Jones and makes AC a back up point guard which is what he is in the league (and not a bad one at that).
Also gives the nuggets a solid shooting big man to run pick-n-pop with in Antonio.
by Eric B on Nov 3, 2008 10:19 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
The Pistons are playing Larry Brown's team tonight, which means that not only does LB have to go against his old Pistons, but also has to go against his old star in Iverson.
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 10:24 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 10:27 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Brian on Nov 3, 2008 10:29 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Damn...I gotta buy new jerseys now.
by ThaAnswer on Nov 3, 2008 10:29 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
So maybe he ends up back in Detroit in 30 days...
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 10:42 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by grantarchy on Nov 3, 2008 10:45 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
I love to see him play, and he's an absolute athletic phenom, but I would be shocked if it made Detroit better.
As for the Nuggets, I think this makes them a 45-50 win team, if they remain healthy in the front court. Which, as we all know, is a huge if.
by Kieran on Nov 3, 2008 10:48 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Kieran on Nov 3, 2008 10:50 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 10:51 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
He's only a defensive liability if he's matched up in the backcourt with another short player. When his backcourt mate has size, he's actually a defensive asset with his ability to get steals, draw offensive fouls, and disrupt the passing lanes.
Since both Hamilton and Stuckey have size, Iverson should be fine on the defensive end in Motown.
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 10:55 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by BillFace on Nov 3, 2008 10:58 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 11:05 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
- We rid a ball hog
- Replace with a PG that defends, passes, and shoots much better
- Add big bodies in McDyess and Sambs
- Hometown boy Billups is back to play for the second time for the Nuggets, McDyess third time... so they're familiar with environment and will be quicker to adjust
Only negative and could be devastating is Billups' contract... it's three years more after this season... are you kidding me? He's already slowing down at 32 and we're gonna pay him until he's 35. This contract is gonna look like Steve Francis one day...
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 11:07 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Everyone is reporting that Dice will be bought out to get you guys under the luxury tax...
-----
"The other benefit of trading AI is trading his fans."
As an Iverson fan, one advantage of the trade is getting better hometown fans to root with. The bulk of Denver-ites don't know their hoops. Detroit is a better basketball town.
And thank god I'll never have to slog though another Woody Paige column.
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 11:09 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
It's bad, but it's not ultra-bad.
Big guards like Chauncey age better than small guards, and the contract is pretty reasonable dollars.
He'll be overpaid in the last year of the deal, but it's not Stevie Franchise territory.
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 11:12 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, right. Like to hear from you in about 2-3 months on that one.
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 11:15 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
I know I speak for everyone when i say the only negative to this trade is losing Petey
by john on Nov 3, 2008 11:23 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Goldennugget on Nov 3, 2008 11:30 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Mostly because this puts the focus, once & for all, on Melo!
Chauncey is a "classic" PG, not a SG in a PG's body like AI!
It's left up to Melo to come through now, & I for one, think he can do it! With JR, Nene,KMart,Billups, & Melo- the Nuggs can compete & do damage in the playoffs. The Pistons will be OK with Stuckey, but who knows how "other" personalities will adjust ie; Rashweed Wallace. Billups brings class, leadership, & a winning rep to the NUggs- something Melo can emulate! Also, we'll finally get an idea what the future of this franchise will be. If Melo fails this time, then he's toast in Denver- & we can turn the page! I can't wait!
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 11:46 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Full credit to Andrew. He named three potential Iverson trades, and one of them came through as detailed.
Excellent prognostication.
One note, though. In that post, Andrew wrote:
"Dumars has never expressed any interest in Iverson"
This isn't fully true. Dumars actually had a trade in place to get Iverson from the Sixers in '00, but Matt Geiger refused to waive his trade kicker, which nixed the whole deal.
So Dumars did express intense interest in Iverson, even if that interest was eight years ago...
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 11:49 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Iversonshould'vebeenaWahoo on Nov 3, 2008 11:51 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
http://need4sheed.com/
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 11:52 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
It'll be interesting to see AI in, quite honestly, his first defensive-minded team, save for the 2000-2001 76ers.
Good luck to the Nuggets, hope Billups gives you some good performances. I'll check back with this blog now and again.
by ohxten on Nov 3, 2008 11:56 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
This is a brilliant trade for Detroit. With both Iverson and Rasheed coming off the books this year, the PIstons will be $20m+ under the cap next summer.
That means they can sign a max free agent next summer to go along with their core, if they want. Or they can wait a year and go after LBJ, Bosh, or D-Wade.
This year Sheed and Bubbachuck can lay their aging bodies out on the line one more time and see how far they can go. (And don't bet against them - I'll bet Iverson has good chemistry with the veteran Pistons.) But anything they accomplish this year is just icing on the cake for Dumars.
Dumars actually plays chess with this stuff...
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 11:59 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Chauncey first and foremost brings toughness and a calm/cool head to the most critical position on the floor. He can back down any G in the NBA, shoot from outside, and play the post on any G on the defensive side.
He's going to take a lot of pressure off a lot of people on both sides of the floor, and I couldn't think of a better guy to mentor JR Smith into becoming a Rip Hamilton circa 2003 type player, which would fit excellently in this offense.
I'm super hype about the legitimacy this brings to the face of the Nuggets!
We are no longer a wild out of control team. We're a tough deliberate, kick-yo-ass punishing team if Nene and K-Mart can hold up a full season.
I'll always respect and admire the future HOF'er Iverson, but this trade makes the Nuggets WAAAAY better.
by Eric K on Nov 3, 2008 12:05 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I think the best part of the trade is that Billups is not a party animal. He will bring some maturity to the Nuggs locker room. If Melo is serious about growing up, he's got a role model in Chauncey.
As an added bonus, we get to see JR let off the leash.
by joelsopinion on Nov 3, 2008 12:15 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
man i love AI. i don't want to see him go. but that's apart of the game.
much love AI. you deserve a chip. and i hope you get one!
by andrew fisher on Nov 3, 2008 12:37 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Fair point on the defensive liability comment. He'll be less of a liability in Detroit than in Denver, but my sense is still that Detroit will not improve with AI. He's a low-percentage shooter whose teammates tend to stand around because he's so chaotic in his movements. Five to ten times a game he drives into the lane with the sole intention of getting contact, and then hangs out at the offensive end complaining to the officials. On D, he over commits to get steals, and regularly misses his assignments.
by Kieran on Nov 3, 2008 12:50 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I would hope we don't buy out mcdyess, but in order to get under the tax line it would have to be him or Chucky and Steven Hunter. According to salary numbers on espn nuggets would still be about $5.6M over the tax line. Hopefully kroenke will be patient about it and not buy out mcdyess right away.
by Eric B on Nov 3, 2008 12:57 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Only if you don't incorporate FT's.
If you look at the best measurement of shooting efficiency, TS%, last year Iverson was at 57%. That's good for a volume scorer, right at the same level as folks like Carmelo, LeBron, and Kobe.
Age will soon enough reduce Iverson's abilities, but until that happens, he's still scoring efficiently in volume.
"whose teammates tend to stand around because he's so chaotic in his movements."
Iverson needs big men who can move, have good hands, and who can finish at the basket. He drives, draws attention from the opponent's big men, and likes to dish to his big men in the lane.
My main frustration during his Denver tenure was the inability of Nene to stay on the court, since Nene is the ideal type of player to complement Iverson.
Also, it's worth noting that Iverson's backcourt mate tends to end up with a lot of open looks. Guys like Anthony Carter and Steve Blake were more efficient shooters playing with Iverson than they've been at any other time in their careers, which makes sense given the attention Iverson draws.
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 1:06 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 1:06 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I dunno if you caught the Clippers game the Nuggets recently won in overtime, but my favorite play in that game was the one where the Nuggets tied the game with 7 seconds left in regulation with two Kleiza free throws.
That play was a perfect example of what Iverson brings.
Iverson drove right, towards where J.R. Smith was setting up in the corner. The Clippers wisely stayed home on J.R. Nene cut towards the hoop, forcing the Clippers to switch to avoid Iverson passing to Nene for the dunk.
At that point, all of the Clippers' defensive switches created by Iverson's drive left Kleiza wide open at the three point line. Iverson found him. Thornton closed out on Kleiza to stop the 3-pointer, leaving Kleiza an easy drive to the hoop. The Clippers fouled to make him earn it at the line, which he did.
The "chaotic movements" created a wide open scorer, and Iverson delivered the ball to the open man.
by Petey on Nov 3, 2008 1:15 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Most players start on a wing and slash toward the basket, where as Iverson starts wherever he wants and actually branches out away from the basket once he penetrates.
He is the only player i have ever seen who does it.
He will be great in detroit, and detroit will be better. I think Denver will be better too.
by John on Nov 3, 2008 1:25 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 2:28 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
He's a career 42% FG shooter, man. That's altogether uninspiring.
He's also one of the most turnover-prone players in league history. There's no stat for getting caught up in the air with nowhere to shoot and nowhere to pass, bumping into two guys and missing a shot. And there's no stat for giving up points for over committing on D or simply hanging out to complain to an official because you don't get a call.
That said, he's one of the most amazing players I've ever seen live.
Even if I were to accept your argument that AI is a great player in the abstract, he's not an ideal player for the Nuggets. He works best if you have a big, strong, pass-first guard working next to him (Eric Snow, anyone?), someone who can defend a McGrady or Bryant. The Nuggets have Anthony Carter, which led to disastrous defensive match-ups nearly every night.
In theory, a brilliant coach could have developed a scheme to take Iverson's mad genius offensive skills and make it into a winning formula. But this wasn't the team to do it. This was Melo's team first. And with no cap space, they couldn't build a team around him. The Nuggets have a better chance to win without Iverson than with him. End of story.
by Kieran on Nov 3, 2008 3:24 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
One thing is for sure..this is defenatly put up or shut up time for Melo. Unlike players like AI,KG and Lebron..Melo has had good teams around him throughout his entire career so far and still cant help his team win more then one game in the first round. So people need to start holding him accountible for something. As much crap as some Nuggets fans talk about Iverson, that guy was probably the main you folks even made it to the playoffs last season. And probably the main reason why a vast majority of people even bothered to watch. With him gone (and taking all the attention he brought the Nuggets with him), I have a feeling that the Nuggets are steps away from being completely irrelevent again, I hope im wrong. It has a potential to be a nice trade for both teams. We shall see.
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 3:45 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Chauncey can spread people out just as well as AI, and he too has that step back J he likes to shoot.
The Pistons weren't a legit title contender this year no matter what anyone says (not getting past BOS, CLE or even ORL), so I doubt Chauncey is hating on a fresh start with a better starting 5 than he had in DET.
3rd point, we're now a traditional basketball team, and that's a good thing over that bullshit run and gun style that ultimately gets you nowhere in the playoffs.
by Eric K on Nov 3, 2008 4:16 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Goldennugget on Nov 3, 2008 4:27 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Jack on Nov 3, 2008 5:00 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
The trade makes great sense both ways.
by Eric K on Nov 3, 2008 5:23 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Zachm219 on Nov 3, 2008 5:24 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 5:55 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Some of you people should worry more about your deteriorating situation with the Nuggets and the fact that your front office doesn't seem to know what its doing half the time...along with the fact that this is put up or shut up time for Carmelo... im sorry the guy is overrated. Some of you people look silly talking about Iverson and other NBA stars when Carmelo has yet to live up to anything and his peers are passing him by.
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 7:43 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I think this could be really good, or really bad, but it depends on Karl. Billups brings a wealth of knowledge in the half court, both defensively and offensively. But this requires Karl relinquishing some authority to Billups, and not relying on an ultra fast paced "run-n-gun" offense. As far as I'm concerned, all of our presumed starters are very efficient in a half court game.
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 9:49 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
by peers I assume you mean the lack of an outside shot LaBron, and the oft injured d-wade?
by Anonymous on Nov 3, 2008 9:59 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
The Negatives, unless Kleiza blows up, the Nuggets will have a tremendously weak bench, word on the street is McDyess doesn't want to play for the Nuggets.
The Pistons have to decide whether or not Stuckey will start and AI comes of the bench or Hamilton comes off the bench. All three of them will not be efficient on the court at once unless when playing small ball.
I do think that the Nuggets will not reap the benefits of this trade as quickly as the Pistons will. The Pistons are a consistent team, and they know they can win games without Billups, that's why he got traded.
Billups is a system based PG, George Karl is going to have to bring about about a system in order for Billups to be most effective. And the Nuggets are going to have to be a pass- first team too.
The Nuggets success will depend on the coaching performance of George Karl. He has shown incompetence in the past, but he will need to be on top of his game this time. If George Karl coaches up to his potential I see the Nuggets finishing between 3rd and 5th in the West.
by j2y2k3 on Nov 3, 2008 10:10 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Goldennugget on Nov 3, 2008 10:15 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
When was the last time the Pistons made the finals? And what moves have they made to make an aging team better? Stuckey? Gimme a fuckin break you douche bomb! Get off the Nuggets fan board and talk your moronic junk somewhere else.
by Eric K on Nov 4, 2008 9:23 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
this was a great trade for denver, because chauncey, dyess and even samb bring what your team is missing - defense.
i don´t know if ai fits well into our sytem, especially playin next to rip, another primary scorer. but i trust joe dumars, as always.
lets hope the best for both squads.
by Anonymous on Nov 4, 2008 10:45 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
detroitbadboys.com
need4sheed.com
they´re simply the best.
by Anonymous on Nov 4, 2008 10:50 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Some people starting by Karl have to pay for the mess and for having wasted for too many years the time and money of the fans, but also 2 years of an HOF player career.
As much as i can't stand most of denver "fans", karl, Anthony's game or the morons running this organization, i wish you the best because there're loyal Nuggets fans in Denver and they really deserve better.
Peace
I.W
by Iverson Warrior on Nov 4, 2008 1:26 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
by Anonymous on Nov 5, 2008 1:55 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
DENVER STIFFS T-SHIRTS!
Enter your email for updates
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
