More thoughts on the Camby trade...

by Andrew Feinstein on Jul 16, 2008 1:13 AM MDT Comment 57 comments

I've often wondered what it would have been like to have sports blogs during the era when Bernie Bickerstaff was running our Denver Nuggets. Can you imagine the fan outrage voiced here or on other Nuggets-related blogs when in one summer Bernie allowed All-Star center Dikembe Mutombo to depart for nothing and traded away the 10th pick in the draft (which could have turned into Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash or Jermaine O'Neal) and Jalen Rose for the 18th pick and drafted a no-name Greek bust named Efthimious Rentzias whom Bernie later admitted to never seeing play in person?

12 summers later, we as Nuggets fans - whose season ticket prices have been raised 10% - are getting screwed again and must speak out against the atrocious maneuvers taking place within the organization we pay to support. In just a few weeks, the Nuggets have passed on participating in a deep NBA Draft, allowed one of our best hustle players in Eduardo Najera to walk without ever making an offer and have now traded the team's only defensive presence, center Marcus Camby. While these latest moves (or non-moves) don't rival losing a Mutombo and Rose and getting only a Rentzias in return, they reek of the same macro problem: lack of vision and deal-making savvy at the top. Like Mr. Bickerstaff, we again seem to have small-minded people who don't understand the first thing about the salary cap or economics (kind of like the US Senators who were trying to grill Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke yesterday) running our Nuggets.

The Nuggets "brass" of Mark Warkentien and Rex Chapman are already trying to sell the Camby trade as a deal that gives the team cap flexibility to make bold moves in the future. But unless a big deal to improve the team is coming soon, in reality they were just being lazy by dumping Camby for virtually nothing. When this blog (and other Denver sports columnists) advocated for a Camby trade, we assumed it would be...well...an actual @#$% trade! Not for the option to partake in a second round draft choice swap meet with the Clippers in 2010.

ESPN.com's John Hollinger has gone on record stating that the Clippers had "the market cornered and could name their price" for Camby, but that's nonsense. I was hoping to do a post this week outlining the various Camby trade options with other teams that would have netted the Nuggets - at the very least - a late first round pick and a halfway decent point guard (such as making a deal with New Jersey for a pick and Marcus Williams or with Chicago for Kirk Hinrich in exchange for Camby and possibly Linas Kleiza).

While several NBA teams are being run by innovative, "Moneyball"-type GMs using a hybrid of basketball know-how, statistical lineup breakdowns detailing the most efficient on-the-floor player combinations, international scouting and salary cap maneuverability to improve their teams, the Nuggets continue to do things the old way (like when Bickerstaff used appearances in Sports Illustrated to determine who to draft).

In 2004, when the Nuggets had salary cap flexibility and six first round draft picks over two years, former GM Kiki Vandeweghe panicked by trading three of those picks to New Jersey for Kenyon Martin and signing the undersized power forward with no shooting touch and suspect character to a maximum deal. When that didn't work and Kiki was ousted for UNLV and Portland Jailblazer castoff Mark Warkentien, "Wark" set out to build an All-Star team where character, salary cap space, lineup combinations that fit together and retaining draft picks were secondary to raw talent. And now that that hasn't worked, Wark is dumping salary without maximizing the few assets (i.e. Camby and Najera) the Nuggets once had.

Mr. Warkentien, unless you have something stellar up your sleeve that none of us know about, you're officially Number One on the Stiff List!

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Warkentien also added, "It's not a checkers move," he said. "It's a chess move. Chess is a tougher game to understand. You've got to wait longer to see the results of the move."

Well, Mr. Warkentien, I'm sorry that I don't understand how you can let two GOOD players go for NOTHING.

My God, this is ridiculous. I don't even know what to say. Ugh, I really hope some kind of deal is made, because right now this franchise looks stupid.

by nataly on Jul 16, 2008 1:25 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

another very bad thing is Clippers is a conference rival..

what is happening!?!

we lose camby and najera for nothing..

do they have interest for smith and kleiza or we are going to lose them also?

where are we going? nuggets...

by cru03thik on Jul 16, 2008 1:37 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I feel sorry for you Nugget fans. You lose one of the top 5 centers in the league for nothing. I had to re-read the headline three times to make sure I wasn't still sleeping. I think you will still battle for the last playoff spot though.
The really crap thing is that if someone would just listen to this website and get a coach in who can actually motivate and get these guys to play hard and defend then they wouldn't have to blow up this team. They better transfer Iverson before the trade deadline and get the rebuild proocess underway now.

by Si on Jul 16, 2008 1:44 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

man camby is so overrated.

sure he gets 4 blocks a game. but he attempts the most blocks too. and when he attempts blocks. he leaves his man/zone wide open...

don't get me started on how he wrecks our offense...

but believe me. without him we're better.

i do agree though that we could have gotten ALOT more out of him... and now that the clippers have signed him... they can't get an iguodala or josh smith or even JR smith! which would have been alot worse for us as their 'conference rivals'

maybe the chapter is not yet done. patience is virtue. but if you snooze you lose. let's just hope that this nuggets' FO isn't as stupid as we think they are!

by andrew fisher on Jul 16, 2008 2:58 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Motherf%%$@%$#@%$!!!!

Couldn't we at least get a slight bit of value for our man Camby?

At least the Grizzlies got Kwame Brown. I'd take him over that bag o' balls we got this time 'round...

SLAM has a funny one: ...the Nuggets, obviously frustrated by having one defensively competent player, have traded Marcus Camby to the Clippers... lol

Wark better have an ace up his sleeve, or else things will get nasty...

by Geerten on Jul 16, 2008 3:43 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Now, the question is:

Who would you sign¿?

J.R? Josh? Iguodala?

I'd sign Josh

by Lucas Navarrete on Jul 16, 2008 4:18 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Kwame brown is currently showcasing himself to a number of teams. Would it be possible to sign him to the vets minimum? I know he has turrible offiense but defense is where help is needed.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 6:17 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

A necessary move and an admission that the plan that was in place the last 2-3 years will not work.

It's not like we got nothing in return - dumping a US$10M salary allows you the flexibility to pick the right player for you in the market when you choose, not just one of the players that is available that moment.

yes we could have a deal for billups, hinrich or someone else. would that really put the nuggets over the top? NO.

the reality is that it would be impossible to attempt to win a championship with iverson, camby and kmart on any team, based on their team contributions (or lack thereoff) and financial commitments.

as long as this move is part of a shift in strategy to develop a winning young core (anthony, JR, kleiza and a top-5 young point guard), then it makes sense. yes, that is rebuilding and we are tired of it, but it's the only way out of this group of players who will not lead us anywhere.

the problem is that i don't see much hope in expecting that the management team that caused this problem to begin with can have the vision to understand that a 180-degree shift from their original idea is necessary - it would require a lot of humbleness and guts.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 6:44 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

andrew, your comments that Camby was overrated were spot, and I said it earlier that he needed to be dealt. However, you're also spot on in that they should have got more than an option to exchange 2nd round picks. This is a straight salaray dump in my opinion, same as letting Najera go. If your a Nuggs season ticket holder, you should be kicking yourself for the subpar season you going to get. This move might still give them some cap space to lock up JR, and maybe bring on a few castoffs or summer leaguers (Brown, Weems, Harrison, Livingston), but they won't be as good. They're probably setting up for 09/10 when Iverson's and Atkins salaries will also come off the books. I need to find out who will be the top FA next year.

by micb on Jul 16, 2008 7:24 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

The Nuggets aren't going to get better until they get better defensively. Saying this as much as I know nugget fans want JR Smith, you'd be better off with Josh Smith or Andre Iguodola. Or trade AI and get it over with.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 7:44 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Here's the question: Were the Nuggets good enough to win a championship as they were constructed last year? NO. NO, NO, NO, NO. So, in my mind, If we can chase off Iverson (or even better, trade him), we can start to build a legitimate title contender. In Football, going to the playoffs gives you a chance to win the super bowl, mainly beacause it is possible for any team to beat any other team once. In basketball, making the playoffs (usually) means nothing unless you have a good team that can do damage. So, if a title is our goal, then we can say last season (with playoffs) and next season (with out, as I see it) will be a wash. We could be better then the blazers in a couple of years if we build this team right. And we would be, if Anthony gets himself together: he's more talented then ANY player the Blazers have.

And heck, did anyone ever think that now, George Karl might decide to stay home?

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 7:47 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Heard the news this morning. After last season I did think Camby needed to be traded... but TRADED, not given away (basically)!

Optimist I usually am, I'm hoping something good comes out of this...

by ohxten on Jul 16, 2008 7:56 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

While the trade itself is certainly a let down (we couldn't even get their second round pick?) I think there is a pretty big bright side. Unfortunately, that bright side is dependent on two things: 1 - let AI walk for nothing (assuming he doesn't want to take a 125% pay cut) and 2 - hope the front office has a good plan and executes it. That said, as it stands right now, if AI walks, the Nuggets are under the cap next summer and have a $10M trade exception and two first round picks (go CHARLOTTE!).

Add two new players, an incoming FA, someone from the trade exception to Melo, JR, Kleiza and Nene (all under 25) and the Nuggets have a chance to completely reshape a bloated roster without giving up anyone young, especially Melo, and without taking back terrible salaries in return. This is why they shouldn't trade Iverson just for the hell of it - they are probably better off with the cap space by letting him expire.

'09 FA market can include Kobe and Boozer, and will include Rip Hamilton, Sheed, Marion, Artest, Odom, Wilcox and Andre Miller; restricted FAs will include Channing Frye, Martell Webster, Milsap, Fran Garcia, David Lee, Villanueva, Ramon Sessions, McCants, Hakim Warrick, Danny Granger, Luther Head, Jason Maxiell, Raymond Felton and Marvin Williams.
At least the Nuggets now have options moving forward.
I also agree that this may force Karl to go so ape shit that he resigns or gets himself fired during the season. It will also force the Nuggets to play smaller and faster, at times with only 1 big on the floor and JR, Melo, AI and Kleiza flying all over the place (for better or worse).
Additionally, this frees up a roster spot and one would think we'd have to add a big from summer league or training camp (Go Elton Brown) just to have some insurance since Karl refuses to play Stephen Hunter (or Jelani McCoy when we had him last year...)

by Eric B on Jul 16, 2008 8:01 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

The sad part about this is that I thought the Nuggets had a real shot to be quite good this year just by bringing back everyone with a healthy Nene and Atkins as the additions.

by Petey on Jul 16, 2008 8:32 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

No, no, no- don't you get it? It's ALL Melo's fault! The FO is spot-on, they certainly know how to get a championship here. These offseason moves, along with retaining Karl are all proof of their brilliant master plan. In no time at all, it'll start coming into focus! BUT- as I've always stated, if Melo passes the ball, plays better defense, and rebounds better- than ALL the NUGGS problems will be solved. Like everyone stated at the end of last season, he needs to STFU & listen to George Karl. Yep- it's all Melo's fault!

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 8:42 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

And to top it off, they send Camby to another Western conf. team. The trade of that one player has suddenly weakened the Nuggets and brought the Clippers back to a team that could contend for the 8 seed with another player.

Baron, Camby, Kaman, Thornton, Mobley plus another free agent (Josh Childress?) is at least respectable.

by The Virginia Contigency on Jul 16, 2008 8:58 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I haven't been visiting the blog much recently as there hasn't been much to bitch about....but I knew this trade would bring me back.

My initial reaction - Awful, can't they get anything better. It was a salary dump, saving them 20M this year when you factor in luxury tax, and 20M next year, Camby's last year of his contract (assuming they'd be over the luxury tax threshhold again next year).

Taking a step back and having some time to digest things, i agree a lot with what everyone else has said. Camby was overrated defensively, to the point that I think he was more of a hinderance than a help. A good help defender steps up and stops the screen and roll or the penetration at the FT line, Camby chose to let those guys come all the way to the bucket so he could try and block their shot, so he had 3 blocks and missed 15-20 more.

From a looking towards the future standpoint, it's obvious the Nugs are ridding themselves of players that were Karl's "favorites". It's also obvious they're going to let AI walk after next year, or trade him midseason to a team that wants cap relief. Personally, I hope they let him walk. Then they'll have roughly 30M plus a 10M trade exception to work with and try and build a team around 'Melo, Kleiz, JR and Nene.

They will suck next year, but perhaps, maybe they'll be better in the long run...perhaps

by blue on Jul 16, 2008 9:02 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Ok, here's how I feel in no particular order...

the FA market in 09 sucks...

I have a hard time believing that any of the 2010 marquee FA's will really want to come play here, even with max money...

we just lost the most 'admirable' (keeping dignity and community presence in mind - Camby is first class) face of our franchise, with only AI to step up and fill that role, but apparently he's on everyone's shit list here now for God knows why, and he'll be gone soon enough...

We're now reliant upon a cancer survivor (who I hate to say could go into remission at any given time, because that's entirely possible with Cancer), and K-Mart's knees and back to go with whatever D-Leaguer we can scrap heap onto our front line...

WE COULDN'T AT LEAST GET A 2ND ROUND EFFF'N PICK??? We coulda used that pick as trade leverage at a minimum down the road, or God forbid, to actually draft a steal (Leon Powe anyone?)...

Why did we have to pull the trigger on this Clippers deal RIGHT THIS MINUTE??? Why couldn't we have left the hook in the water a little longer? What was the rush?...

We're still over the goddamn luxury tax!...

Camby went to a team that's going to fight us for one of the last few playoff spots. What irony it will be if they oust us for the 8seed, or just beat us in the playoffs somehow!

Random tangent to "theanswer"... I have lost all respect for you when I accidentally clicked on your name (and found that you can see posters profiles by doing so) and found that your two favorite books are written by Sean Hannity and Bill O'Riley. I used to like your posts, now I hate you, and I had to consider suicide for a second when I thought how aligning similar views on the Nuggets might make me a Republican follower of those two pathetic runiers of society in America... sorry man. Those are about the two worst guys in America this side of Rush Limbaugh.

I'm sure there's more that will come to mind, but these are what's biting my ass right this minute.

by the other Eric (who's NOT a Nugs insider) on Jul 16, 2008 9:06 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Camby was in love with the high-arcing, top-of-the key brick that he launched where ever and whenever he pleased; he was equally in love with poor on-ball defense, and his help defense was drastically overrated (remind me...is it known whether the Nuggets set the single season record for "Most Uncontested Layups" midway through the season, or just before that?). He occasionally had monstrous rebounding/blocking single-game efforts, but none of those, to my memory, came in a playoff game. He was 2nd on the team last year in "Most Plays That Made Me Contemplate Not Only Quitting on the Nuggets, But Professional Sports in General" (2nd to Carmelo). I privately wondered all spring if we'd be better off without him.

That said, only the Thuggets would settle on a 2nd round pick for the 2007 Defensive Player of the Year. It's also comical that they lose Najera, one of the only worthwhile guys on last year's team, then decide to free up cap space.

If the NBA was a Sudoku league, Nuggets management would be playing a grid with 95% of the numbers pre-filled, and no idea how to complete the other 5%.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 9:24 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh wait... even better, Camby would have been off the books for the 2010 FA class anyway!!!!!!! His deal expires after the 09-10 season! SO looking at 2010 FA flexibility is a non-issue here.

This had to have been done solely with the desire to reup JR. So JR better bring his A game this year... and for the next 5 or 6 or whatever we overpay him for as well!

This management sucks. They think they're doing the right things but we all know they'll EFF it up one way or another.

No wait, these guys know what they're doing and have a great track record. I'll sleep easy knowing this management Trioka is doing all the right things to bring Denver a championship... yeah right.

by Eric on Jul 16, 2008 9:30 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Can't you get a 1st round pick when you spend $25 or more in the Phoenix Suns official gift shops? And cash back???

WTF??? Mark and Sexy Rexy: This isn't the NFL! 1st rounders aren't that damn hard to get in return!

My head is going to explode sheerly on the haste in which I feel this was done.

(And yes, I'll be making about 5 more posts here today to rant on the weakness of the Trioka)

by Eric on Jul 16, 2008 9:34 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm speechless. Camby is no Pau Gasol, but I would never believe that the Clippers of all teams would pull off such a steal. I had no idea the front office of the Nuggets was this desperate for cap space. But hey, at least you didn't give up 2 unprotected first rounders just to get rid of him... :kurtthomas:

While I'm not too worried that this move will hurt the Suns, it certainly will help the Clippers be more competitive and they immediately leapfrogged Golden State and Sacramento at the very least.

by MIchael on Jul 16, 2008 9:44 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Donald Sterling and Mark Wartonmyass conversation went something like this:

Wart: [Thinking, "shoot high and work my way back down to what I know I'll have to settle for"] Hey Don, we're looking for a good PG and I am prepared to offer former DPOY Camby and hot shooting super sub Leinas Kleiza for that B-Diddy guy you just acquired. I heard he's got issues with too many babies mammas... do you really want that tarnishing your Clipper legacy?

Sterling: Mark, it's 9AM Pacific here... you know I haven't had time to even throw back the first Bloody Mary today. Give me a break! My tee time is 10:15 and you might have better luck after about the front nine with that one.

Wart: [Immediately caving in like he just made his best attempt at getting a new Hyundai at a discount off MSRP from Stonewall Jackson] Alright, that was a good one huh! [chuckles]. No seriously, Kronk told me that me and Rex and Karl are gonna have to take 10% of each dollar we're over the luxury tax out of our own pay this year so we REALLY need to make a move FAST!

Sterling: Ok, a 2010 1st rounder for Camby, take it or leave it. I won't have room to sign a first rounder in '10 anyway since I'm going after Bosh AND Wade with all this cap space I'll have by then.

Wart: Geesh Don, that's awful kind of you. With as bad as that Baron Davis + 11 roster will be, you're basically offering me a top 5 pick! Are you sure?

Sterling: Ehhh, yeah that might be something I can use next year or on draft night in 2010... how about I offer you the chance to take our 2nd rounder instead? If we're worse than you, our 2nd rounder will be higher than yours, and that's a good thing.

Wart: Done. But with one caviat... I'm going to patch in my secretary to get you in touch with Camby's agent. Can you handle that conversation with Camby and Co for me? I don't think I have the balls to tell him we just did this.

Sterling: Always a pleasure Mark! [click]

by Eric on Jul 16, 2008 9:48 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Guys, they made this trade for the 10 million trade exception for this up coming season. There might be a sign and trade coming and that would free up twenty million this season which means another max player potentially coming in for cheaper dollars this season.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 10:08 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

And the other eric, the good thing about this blog is we all love the Nuggets. Why you worry about my other interests or opinions I dunno, get over yourself son.

by ThaAnswer on Jul 16, 2008 11:24 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Chess played by the blind is what this is. If the Clippers DO have a lower pick that year, we essentially gave away Camby for zippo to a Western Conference team. What a joke.

As one of my friends put it:
"The good news is the Nuggets strong suit is defense, so they could afford to give some of that up in return for absolutely nothing."

lol

by grantarchy on Jul 16, 2008 11:47 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Seriously, who is running the show over there. The team approach of Rex, Warkenstein, Silnet Stan, Karl, and Silent Stan is not working.

The Steven Hunter era begins...

by Commish CH on Jul 16, 2008 12:04 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

As far as PFs go, Kenyon has one of the best outside shots in the league - not that it's a justifiable reason to critique a PF anyway. His problem is a guard-like ability to rebound the ball.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 12:12 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

At first I was shocked and mad about the trade. Camby has always been one of my favorite players mostly because I love watching blocks but also because he was a good guy on a troublesome team. I was mad at the effort and stupidity, but not suprised, of our front office and what they put into the trade.(Camby is worth a lot more than a second round pick) But what I was mostly pissed off about was the lack of organization and planning they did. First off they had to have known for a while that they were going to trade Camby. With that said why couldn't they have put some effort into shopping him along with K-Mart to get something we could actually use. I guarantee GS would have loved a trade with those 2 in exchange for Davis, not to mention thousands of other possible great trade combinations. But after a while I stepped back into the reality that is our Denver Nuggets and realized a half-hearted, lackadaisical effort is something I should be appriciative of and not bashing instead. I mean really, with our organization, what more could you ask for?

I think Nene doesn't get the credit he deserves and I am actually more comfortable with him at center with OUR team than I am with Camby. But with Camby and Najera gone I honestly think we are close to out of the playoffs unless we make some kind of change.

by goldennugget on Jul 16, 2008 1:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

So that comment about Kenyon being a shooter is a joke, right? Laughable.
And the more I think about the trade the less horrendous it seems. There wasn't a chance the nuggets won a title as presently constructed, so you have to figure out the fastest way to be able to win a title. The answer is to get flexibility and build around Melo and JR (and LK and Nene to a lesser extent). But Melo and JR give you two dynamic scorers, who if they tried could even play passable D. Getting rid of Camby without taking back any salary gets you the flexibility to build around those two the fastest. Its a bitter-ass pill to swallow, but if (and again this is a BIG BIG IF) the front office does something smart next summer or this year w/ AI and the trade exception, the team could look REALLY different going into the 09-10 season. They don't need more superstar players, they need passers, players who move without the ball, guys who can hit open shots and guys who board and play D. This season will be a little rough probalby, and the speculation about AI at the deadline and after the season will be intense and distracting. My fear is that the front office will take its newfound flexibility and sign Jamal Crawford to a huge deal next summer, effectively ending dooming the Nuggets to 4 more years of just good enough but not nearly good enough.

Oh, and i'm certainly no insider, so that was either a very good sarcastic joke or i'll take it as a compliment...

by Eric B on Jul 16, 2008 1:12 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

wark and chap commenting over on Hoopsworld:http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9488
best line " We're not gonna make a bad deal"-Chapman

by micb on Jul 16, 2008 1:47 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Okay, once again I'm sick of all the let Allen Iverson walk next year / trade him. Why would you trade a player away in the prime of his career? That's all i'm going to say.

Anyways, no matter what trades the Nuggets' make, it will never work unless they get rid of George Karl. End of story. Getting a few good defensive players won't make the team better if Karl can't coach everyone to play team defense. Karl / the FO is the reason this team is so talented, yet so terrible at times.

I've said it and I'll say it again, Karl is the main problem of this team. And, until there is a coaching change, the Nuggets will be exactly how they were last season. Regardless of what players we sign / release.

by nataly on Jul 16, 2008 2:38 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

To theanswer: I'm sorry and you're right... I was having a bad morning, and the Camby thing had me heated... still does somewhat which is why I'm pacing this board, but we're fans and we don't need to mix politics in there too. Sorry for going over the top.

I just know not to offer you a spare ticket to the DNC! LOL.

And other Eric... you sure seem to have a lot of good insight. I thought you might have some inside track or something.

by Eric K on Jul 16, 2008 3:12 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

After the Camby trade Elgin Baylor (YES ELGIN BAYLOR) was basically talking junk. I mean, when Elgin Baylor makes you his trade bitch, you need serious help. Baylor said, "what I like about this deal is that we get a player who can really help us and we do not have to lose anyone from our roster." I will now go slam my head with a car door.

Love Camby or hate him, he was worth a lot more than nothing.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 3:22 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

thaanswer needs to stick to cooking meth, he knows little to nothing about basektball besides spending hundreds of dollars on the jersey of a guy who will be traded for Denver soon, and whom if he met - would spit in his face for being a pig Republican redneck.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 3:28 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

After looking at the free agent class of 2010, maybe we *should* be dumping salary ...

http://www.nbaobsessed.com/nba-2010-the-year-of-the-free-agent-lebron-to-okur/

Those are some pretty impressive names that could be teamed with Melo and it would require dumping salary to do it. Not to mention the fact that this team AS IS could not possibly compete for an NBA championship as is. So while I'm not so happy about getting nothing for Camby, dumping the salary and not receiving another contract in return could make good future sense.

by grantarchy on Jul 16, 2008 3:32 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

http://www.nbaobsessed.com/
nba-2010-the-year-of-the-free
-agent-lebron-to-okur/

for some reason the link didn't
wrap so that's it above.

by grantarchy on Jul 16, 2008 3:33 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

oh, heck i'll just post the names:

PLAYER TM TYPE
LeBron James CLE player option
Dirk Nowitzki DAL player option
Josh Howard DAL player option
Dwyane Wade MIA player option
Michael Redd MIL player option
Amare Stoudemire PHX player option
Joe Johnson ATL unrestricted
Ben Wallace CLE unrestricted
Marcus Camby DEN unrestricted
Richard Hamilton DET unrestricted
Amir Johnson DET unrestricted
Antonio McDyess DET unrestricted
Tracy McGrady HOU unrestricted
Jermaine O’Neal IND unrestricted
Darko Milicic MEM unrestricted
Steve Nash PHX unrestricted
Shaquille O’Neal PHX unrestricted
Manu Ginobili S.A. unrestricted
Carlos Boozer UTA unrestricted
Mehmet Okur UTA unrestricted

by grantarchy on Jul 16, 2008 3:38 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm afraid that Denver did this just for the cap space. Ridiculous... even more ridiculous if the move was made in an effort to make $$$ room for the 2010 free agent market. Does anyone, anywhere, think LeBron, D-Wade or any of the other top-echelon free agents are going to land in Denver?

Completely depressing. The Nuggets as they are currently configured are equipped only to outscore other teams--maybe. Next year's playoffs' 8 seed if we're lucky.

by keeperdesign on Jul 16, 2008 3:42 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

GREAT, I WONDER HOW WE'LL DO AGAINST THE LAKERS NEXT YEAR??!!!

WHO ARE WE THE GRIZZLIES?? WHY DO THE LA TEAMS ALWAYS GET THESE TYPE OF DEALS??!! (GASOL, CAMBY)

JEEZ THIS BETTER BE ONE HELL OF A CHESS MOVE OR I'M GONNA REGISTER ENVERUMBASSES.COM

WTF.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 4:52 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

No inside track or information, just an (unhealthy?) obsession with all things nba...

Also, on the Iverson thing, Nataly, I love the guy, loved him as a sixer and have enjoyed his time here. That said, I think the salary dump on Camby is an admission (or decision) that the Iverson/Melo combo isn't going to win a title. Beyond that, I'm not sure that any team at this point paying AI $15M+ per season is going to win a title no matter the surrounding parts. And let's be honest, he's at the end of his prime.
Ideally, I'd like the Nuggets to keep him, but only at 3 years and less than $30M which I dont think will get it done over the summer.
All of that said, I think the solution is to let him walk and not trade him, because a trade just eats the salary cap space that the Nuggets are trying to create.
The other thing is that the 09 Free Agent class could also conceivably include Deng, Gordon, SMith, Childress etc... who are all restricted this year if any of them take the qualifying offer since nobody has cap space this summer. One application of the $10M trade exception could be a sign and trade for one of those restricted FAs, Childress or Okafor would be a nice move...
Ultimately, my guess would be that the Nuggets do nothing until New Years at the earliest and may just play out this season as is and use the exception next summer along with cap space.

The nuggets are also still very much in play to use the MLE now that they have another roster spot, although it isn't clear that they'd do that.

by Eric B on Jul 16, 2008 5:53 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

McFly! Hello??? Anyone in there? This move had NOTHING to do with 2010. He's off the books after the 09-10 season! BEFORE 2010 free agency. I'm about 95% sure of that.

by Eric K on Jul 16, 2008 5:53 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Well we may still be decent next year, because AI is gonna go mad I reckon (contract year) and Melo is gonna wanna prove the doubters that he can play defense and that he is a team leader. Sure, the front-line isn't going to be too deep, but when K-Mart is on his game we may be ok. But it looks like the next time this team is in major championship contention, it will be with Melo, J.R and a top young Deron Williams type PG, and minus one fat Kenyon Martin contract ridiculie. And for the anonymous that said they would go for Josh Smith over J.R, that's more of a short-term option, yes, he defends, but J.R is the next Kobe Bryant. Mark my words. But this ALL depends on whether we still have a clown named Karl coaching the team. Minus Karl, we'll be fine. If we have him... You know what happens.

by Jack on Jul 16, 2008 6:06 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Eric K, you're right, but this helps us to start rebuilding earlier (apparently).

Personally I think that Mark is a REALLY bad chess player.

I think we should all start a DenverStiffs.com type thing. All have a website so Kroenke HAS to do something eventually. If everyone has a DenverStiffs type website, it will make the media most likely and then we go from there. Andrew, I salute you, may god bless your wonderful idea.

by Jack on Jul 16, 2008 6:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Bottom line is, defensively next year, we are gonna get trampled, and offensively we may be able to keep pace again. But no championships will be coming. But once Iverson's contract runs out, we have copious amounts of cap space and we will sign an expensive (hopefully productive) player like Bosh to put with Melo, Kleiza, J.R and whoever else will be with us then. We will be ok eventually.

by jack on Jul 16, 2008 6:47 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Eric B: "that the Iverson/Melo combo isn't going to win a title."

Who says they aren't going to win a title? They MIGHT next season. It's still a possibility. We can only judge based on what's happened, but there's still things that could change. No one picked the Giants to win the Superbowl, but they did anyways.

Eric B. said: "Beyond that, I'm not sure that any team at this point paying AI $15M+ per season is going to win a title no matter the surrounding parts. And let's be honest, he's at the end of his prime."

The end of his prime? Please, the guy averaged 26.4 PPG last season on his second highest career field goal percentage of 45.8%. Not only that but he led the league in minutes, and the Nuggets in assists. He was in the top ten in points, assists, and steals. That doesn't look like the end of his prime to me. Iverson's getting better with age, not worse, or in the end of prime as you say.

Kay, thanks. (statistics from basketballreference.com)

by nataly on Jul 16, 2008 8:44 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

c'mon nataly. I'm sure everybody appreciates your optimism, but let's get back to reality here. The team as constructed, with or without Camby is/was not going to be winning any championships anytime soon. Their first priority should be getting back in the playoffs and winning a game, and maybe even a series. AI is an incredible talent who is fun to watch, but he's not a team player, and his tendency to be a ball-stopper is not going to help this team. Saying he led the Nuggs in assists doesn't mean much when they are one of top scoring teams in the league, yet they refuse to play defense and are exposed in the playoffs. Having AI's salary come off the books next year will be a blessing, but they don't need to resign him. Of course, as was the original intent of this blog, they won't win anything with Karl as the coach either. (and for those that think the Nuggs can succeed with Karl, please provide a list of his past playoff success. . .ummm, yeah, that's what I thought)

by micb on Jul 16, 2008 9:53 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

nataly speaks the truth. AI is the most efficient player on the team.

Eric B. said: "Beyond that, I'm not sure that any team at this point paying AI $15M+ per season is going to win a title no matter the surrounding parts. And let's be honest, he's at the end of his prime."

AI got to the finals only to lose to Kobe & Shaq. Who were AI's "surrounding parts"? The likes of Eric Snow and Matt Geiger. Don't even pretend that if he had a decent coach and a team that played some defense that he couldn't win a championship. Stop hating on the players, focus on the root of the problem, and it starts at the top.

PRIME: a. First in order of time; original; primeval; primitive; primary.

Therefore, if you want to use the term in a negative light, Kobe is past his prime too, and so is everybody else that is not a rookie.

He is still a Top Echelon Player in the league of giants, and his efficiency is up, don't hate on him just because he is getting older. The guy obviously has enough heart to overcome his height AND his age.

Cut it out and give him his props.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 10:00 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I will say this, if the Nuggets are 'rebuilding', they should at least have enough respect to trade Iverson before the trade deadline and not waste another moment of that guys time. Really, its embarrassing that the franchise would go out and make a major trade for a guy like Iverson if they were not ready to win NOW. It seems as if they made a trade for Iverson with no plan in place. You can't make a trade for players of that caliber with no plan in place. I'm glad Camby got traded, so they won't continue to waste his time as well. Iverson should have opted out and left, then that organization could have lost TWO of their most productive players for nothing.

People keep talking about all this money they will get in return..what difference would it make if the Nuggets FO seemingly doesn't know how to use it? They went out and traded for Iverson and didn't even make any more proper moves in order to better that team after that. Just expected that guy to go there and make magic..so what makes anyone think they would know what to do once those guys left? Centers are hard to come by, especially a top five center in the league...a player like Iverson comes around once in a lifetime..so they'll never get a player like him again. Face it, they screwed up! The only right thing to do is to just let Iverson go now, not because he didn't try to help them win.. but because they are just wasting that guys time. I'm starting to wonder if they just brought him to Denver for jersey and ticket sales, because at this point they have benefited more off of him then he has them.

As far as people talking about free agents..what makes anyone think that any big time free agent would want to come to an organization that isn't 100% committed to winning? Why would any player want to go there, just for them to try and ruin their career the same way they are seemingly trying to ruin Iversons and just about everyone elses career? Give me a break. People are watching this and no one wants to go there. Players like Lebron and D-Wade will go to major markets like New York if they leave their organizations in 2010-2011. The Nuggets haven't even won more then 1+ games in the playoffs in god knows how long, so what would that FO or any fan know about how to build a "championship team"? I guess some of you would expect other star players to come there and take complete backseats to Carmelo as well huh? My god, I can't wait for them to finish this out...let Iverson walk and get his chance to go to a REAL contender, he deserves better, and do whatever else they need to do because this is ridiculous.Its going to be interresting to see what is going to happen once Iverson is gone, thats also a lot of production to make up for, its also going to be interresting to see who people blame next for that organizations failures...failures in which were there before players like Iverson even arrived. After that is done, the Nuggets WILL miss the playoffs and will probably miss them for seasons to come in the Western conference. And you know what..they deserve it.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 10:01 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Micb said:"c'mon nataly. I'm sure everybody appreciates your optimism,"

Oh, thanks!

Micb said:"Their first priority should be getting back in the playoffs and winning a game, and maybe even a series"

Right, and isn't that why I said they should get rid of Karl. Their best chance of winning a title is with a coach who can get his players to play. Allen Iverson gives them a better chance to win a series, and a title. He's been to the finals for christ sake.

Micb said: "but he's not a team player, and his tendency to be a ball-stopper is not going to help this team. Saying he led the Nuggs in assists doesn't mean much when they are one of top scoring teams in the league"

Oh really? I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you. Have you watched any Nuggets games? I've seen AI drive to the basket, and pass it up for an open shot. That doesn't mean anything? That means he's looking to make a play. That's his mentality. It always has been, it always will be. Averaging 7.2 assists per game is doing something right. Considering there are some starting point guards in the league who don't average at least 7 assists per game. I don't care how many points the Nuggets score. Iverson is a team player, he might not have been in the past, but he is now. If he wasn't planning on being a team player, then he wouldn't have agreed to come to Denver, and want to play in Denver with Carmelo Anthony. He knows he has to sacrifice his game for the better of the team.

Micb said:"Having AI's salary come off the books next year will be a blessing, but they don't need to resign him."

How do you know they don't want to resign him? Yeah, that's what I thought, you don't.

Hey Micb, you should really watch / rewatch the game the Nuggets played against Golden State on April 10th. Remember how the Nuggets were down 37-21? Guess who led them back into the game? Yeah, Allen Iverson did. And, if he hadn't, then the Nuggets wouldn't have even made the playoffs.

Next~

by nataly on Jul 16, 2008 10:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree with nataly and the last 2 anonymous posts, lay off the blame the player game. If you want to call AI a ballstopper, I can mention a couple more of them on the team, especially the ones that settle on jump shots and don't want to work hard for a better shot. That's not the problem though, don't you guys remember why we are here?

Remember what this page used to be? Anybody??

by NoYPi on Jul 16, 2008 10:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

If Iverson is supposidly at "the end of his prime", then so is every player on the Nuggets roster..considering that he was the best player for the Nuggets team this season. The guy is getting older, yes, but isn't that the same with every player? I'm mean seriously, I love how some fans like to talk about players ages, but what does that say about your Nuggets team when a bunch of players in their 20's who supposidly have so much "promise" continuously get outplayed by a 33 year old that is supposidly "towards the end of his prime"? And I want someone to seriously answer that question. What does that say about the younger players on that team?

The Nuggets have a lot of issues that go far past its players. Too many to even mention at this point. ButI will say that Iverson plays at an incredible level, he's a rare breed, one that seemingly gets better with age. So cut the BS. If you want to trade him for salary reasons and/or to create salary space, fine, but quit dissrespecting that guy because it makes some of you fans look stupid. Half of you seem like you wouldn't even know what a great player is if one came up and slapped you in the face. Its a shame that guy wasted another good season on that Nuggets franchise.

by Anonymous on Jul 16, 2008 10:16 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I understand how ya feel anonymous,.. don't forget, he doesn't only outplay his teammates, but he does over 90% of the whole league.

Yeah too bad his play and efforts are going to waste.

by NoYPi on Jul 16, 2008 10:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

i'd still choose an iverson beyond his prime before 95% of every other player in the league on my team next season.

by andrew fisher on Jul 17, 2008 12:34 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

ABSO-FRIGGIN-LUTELY!

by NoYPi on Jul 17, 2008 1:18 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

true.. AI is still in his prime.

by cru03thik on Jul 17, 2008 2:27 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

first off, there was no disrespect towards Iverson. As I stated, he's an incredible player who's one of the most exciting players to watch in the NBA. My point was that, as CURRENTLY CONSTRUCTED, the TEAM is not championship material, and AI, as good as he is, is not the key piece. I agree that he still plays at an all-star level, but unless the Nuggs can surround him with superior talent in the short term (aka Pierce in Boston), he's not beneficial to the team in the long run. Essentially, what managment told you with the Camby trade and not signing Najera is that they're looking to rebuild with younger playeres and lower salaries. AI at 33 making $20mm/yr does not fit in that plan. Now, if they can sign him for around $10mm/yr before the end of next year, it's a plausible consideration. However, you still have to question the chemistry he has with the other ball-stopper, Melo, and whether they can get enough talent around them to make that chemistry irrelevant. And you apparently didn't read my whole post as I did mention that they're also not going to win with Karl as coach. I was against Karl coming here in the first place as he's never won anywhere else and he's always butted heads with star players. I'm not pinning the blame only on players, but guess what, the NBA is a player's league, so they need to shoulder some of the blame when a team doesn't win. In the Nuggs case, it's organizational dysfuntion, so everyone needs to be held accountable. And oh yeah Nataly, I've been watching and cheering for the Nuggs since 80, so I don't know what holy ground you're standing on to question my knowledge and loyalty for the team. True fans have the right to question a team when they're losing, and praise them when they're winning. If you have blind loyalty and you accept mediocrity, you deserve whatever you get.

by micb on Jul 17, 2008 8:26 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

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THE STIFF LIST (as of 3/8 by Andrew)

STIFF #1: K-MART'S LEFT KNEE
Best-case scenario, K-Mart misses another week or two with a sore knee. Worst-case, he's done for the season with knee surgery.

STIFF #2: RON ARTEST
Nice hairdo. 'Nuff said.

STIFF #3: JOEL PRYZBILLA
The Blazers backup center re-injured his surgically repaired right knee after slipping in the shower. Now we're just waiting for Greg Oden to slip on a banana peel.

STIFF #4: CAVALIERS FANS
Recently set the world record for the largest gathering of people wearing fleece blankets - i.e. Snuggies. Really?! This is worthy of a world record?!

STIFF #5: BOSTON CELTICS
Losing to the pathetic Nets and almost losing to the Wizards is one thing. But to do so at home within a week of each other...now that's an art. I think it's safe to assume the Celtics are going nowhere in this year's playoffs.

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