First off, I want to sincerely thank all of you for your passionate and (in most cases) thoughtful commentary on the Marcus Camby trade that went down on Tuesday night. Now that the dust has settled from this still shocking news, I need to cut through the bullshit being fed to us by Nuggets management and, most unfortunately, being bought into by many of this blog's readers and Nuggets fans everywhere. With that said, here are the seven myths being tossed around the most and why they aren't true...
Myth #1: The Nuggets had to move Camby because they have bigger plans in the works.
The Camby trade was just a salary dump, plain and simple. Don't be duped by the $10 million trade exemption that team Vice Presidents Mark Warkentien and Rex Chapman are boasting about. Unless a can't miss, home run deal falls into their lap, the Nuggets will enter 2008-09 as presently constructed and will remain "lean" salary cap-wise for the next two seasons. If you add up the non-re-signing of Eduardo Najera, the trading away of a first round pick that would've required guaranteed money, the Camby "trade" and the cuts coming with the Avalanche, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that owner Stanley Kroenke is cutting back across the board. Maybe Stan is getting crushed in the stock market like the rest of us.
Myth #2: Kenyon Martin is only on the books for two more seasons. So by getting rid of Camby now and Martin in two years, the Nuggets will sign a big name free agent during the summer of 2010.
For all you optimists who have written in saying that K-Mart is gone after two seasons, think again. K-Mart is on the books for three more seasons. The third season is a player's option, not a team option. And I think it's safe to assume that K-Mart will exercise his option commanding the Nuggets to pay him $16.5 million for the 2010-11 season.
Myth #3: Mark Warkentien and Rex Chapman are smart, experienced guys and they have a plan in place.
Warkentien has never aided in the building of an NBA championship team and has a long, "distinguished" track record of seeking talent over everything else...including ethical behavior. So it's no surprise that Warkentien is throwing out the quality character performers like Camby and Najera while building the team around talented but troubled guys like Carmelo Anthony and J.R. Smith. I'm not suggesting for a second that they build the team around Camby, just that you have to have a balance between quality characters and quality players, and the Nuggets (who didn't really have that in the first place) are now completely out of balance there.
Chapman, on the other hand, may be a decent guy with good basketball know-how, but I doubt he's a master of salary cap economics or statistics. He did, after all, only go to college for two years, and it was at the "University" of Kentucky (hmmm...just like former disastrous GM Dan Issel).
In other words, there's no reason to have any faith in Warkentien and Chapman's ability to build a championship. Warkentien has essentially failed upward thanks to a crony run old boys network within the NBA, and Chapman remains his novice right hand man.
Myth #4: The Clippers had the market cornered for Camby, and this was all the Nuggets could do.
This is the most frustrating one for me. If management is under a mandate or whatever from Kroenke to slash payroll and Camby had to go, I say fine. I'm not going to demand that the Nuggets continue paying into the luxury tax for a team that won't win a title. But at the very least, they owe it to us fans to explore every possible trade scenario (including pre-draft and three way deals) to keep the team competitive while flexible cap-wise, and clearly that didn't happen here. It's inconceivable - IN-CON-THEE-VABLE! - that the Clippers were the only team in the NBA willing to take on an All-Star caliber player like Camby with a reasonable salary.
If I was Warkentien and Chapman and my boss ordered me to shed payroll, I would have kept my own first round pick this summer and moved Camby prior to the draft for (at the very least) an extra first rounder. A few years ago, the Pistons - a team under a constant mandate to keep salaries reasonable - were able to move on from letting defensive star center Ben Wallace leave for nothing by immediately restocking the barn through the draft with Jason Maxiell and Amir Johnson. There's no reason to believe the Nuggets couldn't have done something similar.
Myth #5: George Karl has the full support of management and they're on the same page.
If you read Karl's reaction to the Camby trade, he was clearly and justifiably stunned. Knowing that Karl also wanted Najera to be re-signed, it's obvious that he has no input in personnel decisions - something he allegedly asked for when former GM Kiki Vandeweghe's contract was in limbo in 2005. Say what you want about Karl (and I've certainly said a lot), but I'll take his track record of 870+ coaching victories any day of the week over the Kroenke Cronies who are running the team. Management is basically sandbagging Karl with a small, injury prone team that he'll have to navigate through the even tougher Western Conference next season. In other words, don't be surprised if Karl mails in another season daring management to fire him. Oh, joy.
Myth #6: The Nuggets are in prime position to capitalize on the 2010 free agent market.
This was one of the biggest myths posted about in the comments yesterday. Thanks to K-Mart's $16.5 million 2010-11 salary staring us in the face - to go along with Anthony's $17 million, Nene's $11 million and J.R. Smith's likely $7+ million that season - the Nuggets will be scrambling to sign one mid-level free agent in 2010. And that's if they're willing to exceed the luxury tax threshold again. I'd rather see the Nuggets work through the draft - as Detroit, Boston, the LA Lakers and Utah have done - to improve the team around their star players. But, hey, that would require, you know...drafting.
Myth #7: The Nuggets will be effective playing small ball.
Even with the new "no hand checking rules" and the dominance of point guards in the NBA, size still matters. Especially in the Western Conference. I don't know who the Nuggets are fooling in terms of how this team - sans Camby or a worthy Camby replacement - will stack up against the giant big men who still reside in the Western Conference. Imagine Anthony, Martin and Nene going up against the Lakers' Bynum, Gasol and Odom, or the Suns' O'Neal, Stoudamire and Diaw, or the Jazz's Okur, Kirilenko and Boozer, or the Trailblazers' Oden and Aldridge, or the (gulp) Clippers' Kaman, Camby and Thornton.
Now, according to the Rocky Mountain News, the Nuggets are talking about bringing Francisco Elson and Chris Andersen back to Denver as replacements for Camby's production. This reminds me of when the Nuggets replaced Dikembe Mutombo with Ervin "Don't Call Me Magic" Johnson in 1996.
Unfortunately for us die hard Nuggets fans, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Thursday, July 17, 2008
Debunking the myths coming out of the pro "Camby trade" camp...
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39 comments:
i agree. i just hope to god something big is on the horizon. i do doubt it. but if the FO are stupid enough to trade camby for crap all, they might stupidly pull off something decent... if that makes any sense at all.
birdman might be okay. david harrison said he's willing to sign for the league minimum if he get's decent minutes... and cisco. well i duno... why are we going for regular faces?? if they wanted to trade camby they should have fkn kept that 20th pick for another big man. fools
While I don't feel particularly good about this trade, and it does seem to be pinching pennies at the expense of team success, we really won't know the verdict until we see if the Nuggets use the trade exception or not.
I was so upset when I heard about Camby and Najera. I'm not the biggest basketball fan, but when I watched those two, it was so easy to see that they just played the game right. They both would play through injuries if they could, they would do anything to help the team. Those are two of the guys that the Nuggets needed to keep because they play the game in a way that others need to play. JR is great, but he doesn't approach basketball the same way as these two. It's just a huge disappointment, because the team is going downhill quickly.
Ugh. I was one who thought the nugs would have cap room in 2010. The K-mart contract makes me angrier by the day.
As I've stated previously, this team is toast for two seasons. The ceiling for 08/09 is an 8 seed and playoff sweep, and I doubt they will get that far.
Therefore the sole, sole purpose of the FO should be to get K-mart and Nene off the books by 2010. Do whatever it takes. Trade Martin, a first-rounder, and Atkins for nothing in return if you have to. In the likely event that we can't even do that, buy him out.
Nene is much more tradeable (not saying much), and I would be willing to hold on to him and his ludicrous contract if he could actually stay healthy and blossom into the player we all know he could be-we can dream right?
A core of in-prime Melo/potential all-star JR/Kleiza + cap space going into summer '10 would be an exciting time to be a nugs fan. For the next couple years it's all we have to hope for.
I don't know what's wrong with the FO / anyone else involved with this stupid mess.
I'm so spent on being mad, that I have nothing left to say. What's sad is the fans care so much about this team, and the players, yet we're simply teased, let down, and upset that there's nothing that will be done to fix this mess.
since we can't see any clear plans for our nuggets.. again players and coach karl will make huge adjustments..
a.i.+ melo - no/less gambling on defense no camby in last line of D
jr - maturity
kleiza - replacement in najera's role.. make offense more consistent
nene - health
martin - we can't do something about this guy but pay his fat salary..
but seeing other western conf line-up we still probably fall in 9th or 10 place..
Wow. I only check this blog once and awhile because I have given up on the Nuggets BUT I also like watching a train wreck.
So I just learned here at this very website that the Nuggets traded Camby for the option to swap 2nd round picks. Even I am stunned.
OK, Nuggets fans, here's your situation:
1) your "team" sucks
2) your coach sucks
3) your FO is dumping salary
4) your front court is small and injury-prone
5) Melo has not grown up
6) AI is a highly paid ball hog
7) there is no point guard
8) the West is stronger again
9) your ticket prices just went up
10) there is no young talent because there are no drafts picks*
* Weems????
So, what's your conclusion? Are you feeling good about next year? What about 2010?
What a train wreck!
I still like it. Let Camby hoist ridiculous jump shots in L.A.
He deterred our offense, and like one Western Conference exec put it, "They didn't play defense with Marcus Camby, and they still won't play it without him."
Good riddance!
http://www.82games.com/0708/07DEN17D.HTM
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.
106.9 w/ camby on court
108.0 w/ camby off court
Oh NO whatever will we do?
Good riddance.
I'd rather see the Nuggets work through the draft - as Detroit, Boston, the LA Lakers and Utah have done - to improve the team around their star players.
Uh... what?
Detroit didn't draft Chauncy, Sheed, or Ben Wallace. I don't know about Rip or Tayshaun.
Boston didn't draft Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett. Or James Posey for that matter.
Utah didn't draft Mehmet Okur or Boozer. They did hit on Deron Williams though. He's a great player.
Lakers didn't draft Kobe, Shaq, Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol.
So yeah, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Although I would have loved for the Nuggs to take Chalmers.
Can we really blame the Nuggets for dropping salary on a team that sucks? And, lets be honest, The Nuggets are VERY capable of signing a free agent now, and there weren't so much before. Camby's production can be replaced by the frontcourt we have now with a body like Andersen. Mark my words.
Andrew, you are right about those 5 reasons as being shitty ones to make this trade, but I think there is a better explanation for it that actually makes sense.
First, assuming the Nuggets pay JR, next summer they'll have a payroll of about $50M for 6 players (probably it would be closer to $55M for 9 players after the roster for this year fills in). If they don't pay AI next summer, that means cap room, two draft picks and the option to take on $10M extra salary in a trade. Once you admit that the current team can't win a title (love the experiment, didn't really work out due to the players and the coach and the front office combined) then being able to completely rebuild around Melo, JR, Nene, Kleiza in one season is an excellent solution (and a very fast rebuild on the fly).
Now, whether the current front office does a good job rebuilding or squanders the 2 draft picks and overpays a free agent who doesn't fit (i.e. Jamal Crawford) is a whole separate issue. But having no faith in the front office getting the next two steps right doesn't mean that trading Camby was wrong.
The only issue I take with your "myth busting" is that the Nuggets won't be better going small. The Nuggets best lineups last year (offensively) all involved Melo, LK, JR on the court, with AI or Najera etc... Melo and AI are much better when they are on the floor with shooters to spread the flor for them and I think we're going to see A LOT of AI, JR, Melo, LK together this year with Kmart, Nene or sometimes even Chucky Atkins as the 5th guy in that rotation. Does it mean we'll get torched on D sometimes? yeah, but we were getting torched on D with Camby (because of Camby?) soemtiems too. Besides, it will be fun to watch on offense.
I also think that while the Nuggets probably could have gotten more for Camby, getting more requires taking back salary which, unless your trading Camby for someone who gives you a shot at a title, sort of defeats the purpose.
Nugget fans are a bunch of winers. I must say as a Nugget fan I am very disappointed at most of you. There is a big difference between being a bad team and being an underachieving team. The Nuggets underachieved last year.
This website was started as firegeorgekarl. Now it's getridofcamby, getridofiverson, getridofmelo. You guys don't know what you want. When the Mavericks underachieved last season what did they do. They fired their damn coach...even though he had won 60+ games the previous season. We couldn't even do that to George Karl.
I'm not gonna blame the players, since I know with the right situation this would have been a championship team. Unfortunately, the rest of you have been blinded by the terrible management decisions. Making a huge deal out of character and ignoring the fact that the pieces are there.
Kroenke Cronies <-- That's a good one Andrew!
So what are our chances of making the playoffs now? 50%? 25%?
One other thought on the AI portion of this. I don't mean to criticize the man. I love him, he won us a significant number of games over the last year and a half through shear determination and talent. I love that Kroenke and the front office and Karl agreed to bring him onto the team and take a shot at a playoff run with him and Melo. Despite the fact that it didn't work, I would make the trade with Philly again today.
That said, while his numbers in raw form were pretty good, part of the scoring and assist numbers being so high has to do with the Nuggets playing at the fastest pace in the league, and I would prefer that he NEVER got a steal if it meant he stayed with his man on D (I'd prefer that for a lot of the Nuggets...). On this conversation of players 'in their prime' it's fairly widely agreed that NBA players peak in their late 20s (26-30 or so) and ESPECIALLY small guards who aren't great shooters decline rapidly once they turn 32. I'm not saying that AI declining isn't still better than most players in the league. I'm also not saying that he's the problem or that getting rid of him is the solution - I've got a whole list of people to blame before you ever get to AI (Karl, front office, KMart, Kiki, Camby, freak injuries (read: testicular cancer), bad drafting, George Karl and George Karl in no particular order), but 3 years from now, AI isn't a major piece on a championship team. I'm not sure what the nuggets should do with him, but in the bigger picture, letting him walk next summer, saying thanks and admitting that putting him and Melo together with the rest of that team didn't work isn't necessarily the end of the world.
As for AI making the finals with the sixers, there are two main reasons that worked. First, the East was SO bad that year (and the next 2 years when the Nets made the finals) that someone had to win it. Second, the players on that team fit AI's strengths. None of them needed the ball on offense and they all played GRITTY D for Larry Brown (a real coach, by the way) - Aaron Mckie, Eric Snow, Dikembe, Theo Ratliff, that team was a great defensive team that could make deal with AI's gambling for steals. Also, AI was in his prime that year...
I don't plan on ever defending "Wark" as a good, or even competent, GM. However, the Camby give away makes sense if they don't use that $10 million trade exception (which would cost them $20 million because of luxury tax), they don't resign AI, and try to rebuild around 'melo, J.R., and Kleiza.
Furthermore, I would prefer the right to swap 2nd rounders two years from now over Kirk Hinrich (I realize that was a post ago, but I'm still in disbelief). As someone who watches a lot of the Central Division (Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Indiana, Milwaukee), I can tell you that Kirk Hinrich is TERRIBLE. He had one year where he shot better than he is actually capable, and it just so happened that his style of play fit with the Scott Skiles Bulls of that season. Trading Camby and Kleiza for Hinrich... I'm still stunned.
responding to "Chris" above...
if you knew how to read you'd see that andrew wrote: I'd rather see the Nuggets work through the draft...to improve the team around their star players. and yes thats what the lakers did with sasha, ronny, farmar, jazz with millsap, brewer and miles, celts with powe, big baby, rondo and pistons with stuckey, johnson and maxiell. get it????
i think a lot of you missed the point of andrew's article here. he wasn't saying that dumping salary was a bad idea or that the nugggs had to take back more salary (like hinrich's). just that if you're going to trade camby at lest get a first round pick or two. this is an inexcusably bad trade.
eric b, thanks for posting a well-thought out, competent post on AI. I was trying to make a similar point on the previous post, but some of the other "fans" attacked my knowledge and opinion of AI as disrespect. And I wish some of these anonymous posters would use a name. That way, the ones who make repeatedly stupid comments (not all of them) can be bypassed quickly.
There are 2 problems with getting anything better back. First, look around the league - at the start of free agency, the Clippers, Warriors, Grizzlies and Sixers were the only teams with enough space under the cap to take Camby's salary without sending a player back.
Grizz have no interest in spending money so cross them out; Philly has Dalembert and then signed Brand eating up their cap space and making Camby useless to them; Warriors don't want Camby - he's too slow and they already have Biedrins; that leaves the Clippers so they sort of did have the market cornered on the 100% salary dump.
Second, if you take back first round picks you have to pay them on the rookie pay scale, which, while cheap isn't a pure dump of salary, we literally cut Camby and disguised it as a trade.
Last, if you say that the salary dump alone isn't worth it unless you get picks back in return, I think you'd have a really hard time finding a trade that makes sense in terms of salary over hte long term and bringing a player here that helps the Nuggets win.
Hinrich was never an option even if he is good b/c the Bulls have no use for Camby. And as easy as it is to say "he's a top 5 center with a reasonable salary that expires in 2010, lots of teams will want him" actually going through the league to find which teams that would make sense for is a lot harder:
Port, Hou, LAL, NO, Pho, Spurs, Minn, Wash, Cle, Mil, Chi, Dal, Orl, Bos, Det, Tor, Char, Utah, Sac all have centers already locked up and wouldn't be interested (I would have included the Clippers here too...);
That leaves only 7 teams that would be interested:
New York - we don't want anything they're offering
New Jersey - Kristic and a pick would have been interesting, but the cap numbers don't work
Indiana - sort of surprised (although thrilled) that we didn't go after Tinsley - he seems like a "Wark" kind of guy.
Miami - they aren't trading Wade, Marion, Beasley for Camby and don't have much else - Haslem and change may have worked but I don't see the Heat being interested
Oklahoma - Sam Presti is way too smart to pay Camby while they rebuild although he'd fit nicely there
Memphis - see above - no interest in spending money while they rebuild
That leaves only Atlanta - I would have to hope we talked but ultimately, they aren't trading us Josh Smith, nobody else on the team makes enough money and they don't have point guards to give up; Childress and change would have been worth a converstaion, but probably doesn't go anywhere; also the Hawks ownership is so dysfunctional it makes the Nuggets look like Leave it to Beaver so they are tough to deal with.
Its easy to sit back and rip the trade, but at the end of the day there isn't a huge market for a guy like Camby makeing $20M over 2 years...
Kelly Dwyer at Yahoo has a good post about the trade up right now at Ball Don't Lie:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Camby-as-a-Clipper-one-day-later?urn=nba,94347
. . .and for the anonymous poster that add intelligent content to the discussion, knowing who you are would allow us to commend you. C'mon people, don't be afraid to make up a consistent posting name.
i must say, it makes me feel a little better about being a knick fan. i honestly think it is time for you to pick a new team. constant management indifference and failure being the only legitimate excuse to do this. of course, you cannot be like the brother of yours and become a laker fan, but you can pick someone up and coming or even someone bad with future potential and at least decent ownership. here are some proposed teams - sacto, bucks, bulls (as long as you don't claim mj allegiance). actually isn't your family partially from wisc, i think the bucks are your new team. the only real positive from sticking with the nuggets is that if a miracle ever happens and they do win, it will feel really sweet
Camby had no presence in the paint when going up against another big man and ultimately got worked. Karl had to sub in Nene (when he was somewhat healthy) to compensate. Watch the film.
I am pretty pissed about the camby trade, but i am not sure that he is the center that you will win a title with. they need someone that can either score with their back to the basket (unrealistic) or someone that won't shoot 20 footers from either the top of the key or falling out of bounds on the baseline. of course, they have kenyon martin to still miss those shots. if nene can actually become a semi-decent player, like he was in the playoffs a few years ago, they have a small chance. losing najera was also a kick in the groin. basically, they lost my two favorite nuggets. however, since i no longer care about character issues (only for teams i support), jr smith is my new favorite nugget, if he stays.
Andrew- please read!
Some very good analysis in your article. However, you overlook a significant aspect in your dismissal of reason #4- that the clippers were the only market. The fact is that the Nuggets do NOT want to pay luxury tax next year. You can argue whether that is right or wrong, but the bottom line is that is what going on here. Therefore, to get under the luxury tax threshold, a trade with another team would not help, because we would have to accept back as much salary as we sent out. The Clippers were the only team other than the Grizzlies (who are clearly not interested) who had any cap space to take a contract of Camby's size without sending anything back to the Nuggets.
If you look at the salaries of the Nuggets, unloading Camby was the only possible way they would get close to not paying luxury tax this season, unless AI was given an extension for less money per season. But even that would not reduce payroll by the $10 million that Camby does. Face it- Nene and Martin are untradeable. Melo is locked up. Kleiza is getting nothing. And we are trying to resign JR. If we didnt trade Camby for nothing, signing JR might have put us near $80 million in salaries, which would have meant an extra $12 million of luxury taxes. We all know that this team does not deserve that kind of money being spent on it and it might have led us not to resign JR- how mad would everyone be then?
In the end, let's not forget who we are talking about. Camby is really not the great- no offense whatsoever, terrible pick-n-roll defense, lacks physical toughness against bigger men. And I just have a feeling that more injuries are coming soon for him. It was clearly time for him to go. And the Clippers were the only team in the league who could take him w/o giving us salaries in return. That is why they had the market cornered. And this is why we will be able to re-sign JR now. Cheer up all!
From what I have read. The Nuggets have one year to use the $10 mil trade exemption. It wouldn't make sense to use it before this season, because then they would be back over the salary cap. However, they could save it until next year's draft and pull of a trade. Which would make sense because AI's $22 mil will not be on the books.
Either way, looks like we will be limping along this year.
Hey "Cousin Steven"... blow me, and the rest of Nuggets nation. You stuck by your Knicks but you're telling us to cut our ties? That makes a lot of sense! I'll take the Nugs any day over that mess in NY.
And as Eric B said (I swear this guy works in the ticket office or something) this was a straight cut of Camby disguised as a trade. Couldn't have put it better. But why would they do that now, or this year even? The only real world answer? Andrew hit it on the head... Krunkie is getting killed in the stock market (everyone in the world is!) and he's tired of dumping money into these teams only to see them come up short so he's basically said "enough is enough".
But as far as what we got for our salary dump (aka "virtually outright releasing Camby") the Trioka had their heads straight up their asses when they deemed they couldn't even secure an actual pick in the deal. They couldn't even get the Clips to come up off the 2nd round pick? I think we'd really like to stockpile picks because they don't actually cost anything until they're used, and if we never intended to use them at a minimum they could have been "used" much more effectively in the form of trade chips.
And the fact that we have a guy like Mark Wartkentien even employed by this organization is about as treasonous (sp?) as allowing George Bush to remain in office to this day. How in the hell can you have a track record that consists of UNLV (one of the most corrupt college hoops programs EVER) and the JailBlazers (one of the biggest NBA embarrasments in terms of collective issues brought together ever, or perhaps #2 right behind good ol Cousin Steve's Knicks!).
I think we all just need to step back and say to ourselves that it was not us the fans who sold Camby for pennies on the dollar, it was our incompetent Nugs brass who got took by Don Sterling and Elgin friggin Baylor... one of the worst Onwer/GM comboss ever, mentionable in the same breath with Isaiah and Dolan.
I'm going to go vomit now, and listen to my friends from LA, Detroit and elsewhere talk a bunch of shit to me about how bad my team is.
Forgot to distinguish myself above as now going by "Eric K"... considering there's also Eric B who's actually either A) a marketing rep for the Nugs who's had enough, B) Rocky (who's had enough), C) the personal runner for one of the Trioka who overhears too many private phone calls when he's bringing back coffee and donuts to Wartkentiens office, or D) the Nuggets unofficial "weed man" who gets to overhear all types of inside gripes when he's rollin blunts on Melos couch on an off-season weekday afternoon for Melo and JR.
Just kidding of course...
where do I get that job to be the weed man for the team? lol
Believe me I would rather be rolling blunts for Melo or bringing Wark coffee and donuts than sitting in a basement office with no windows in DC.....
haha
A lot of fans on this website if you study closely, became fans after AI became a Nugget. In the last couple of years since MJ, there has been no player who been as admired by fans as Iverson. Taking all this into consideration,it should be expected when people make AI a scapegoat that people will get upset.
The Nuggets were a good team last year. Frustrating, yes! But still, a good team. The problems they had were fluent offense and consistent defense. We just traded our best defender. Our offense was a lot more fluid when we had Steve Blake but we were too cheap to resign him.
I laugh also when people tend to suggest that Chuky Atkins would have made a big difference.
When will you guys get it? Since 2003, all the NBA championship winners were top 5 in defense. I keep hearing people talking about scoring, scoring, scoring. That being the case, it would be shocking if these complaints don't extend into the 2009 - 2010 season.
Blogging on a pissed off Nuggets fan website... ladies and gentlemen, I give you Eric B... not the DJ for Eric B and Rakim... Eric B the hard worker in DC putting your tax dollars to good use! Just kidding again.... but maybe you're a part of homeland security investigating terrorists. Please look into the Nuggets FO if so!
Hey, j2k3kjtwhatever: How can you "Study closely" the posts on this site and conclude that we're all just a bunch of bandwagon fans who just jumped on board when AI came to town? Hopefully you don't also have a gov't job with the census bureau! I'd like to see your allegations and math on that one kid. I have been a fan of the Nugs (and of AI) looooooong before AI came to town and I would bet that as good as AI is, he probably hasn't actually generated many truly new (aka bandwagon fans), certainly doubtful that the bandwagoners are now zealous enough to have a strong presence on this website. Nothing personal, but I think you're drawing some bad conclusions. Go Nugs!
cant wait for the return of the Birdman!
This was a good post, as usual, on our beloved downward spiraling organization known as the Denver Nuggets. Camby will truly be missed. But what I really take out of this trade is that our guys in charge at the front office have a great ability to recognize athleticism but absolutley no understanding of how to put together a winning team (i.e. discarding Najera and Camby). But personally think those gaps can be filled if we do one thing. That is to make it our first priority to secure a legit point guard. Iverson and Melo alone can handle almost all of the offense but they need someone to help create oppertunities in order to do so. Carter just doesnt cut it. And I do believe that Nene and Martin can stand their own around the basket and fend of guys like Duncan, Gasol and Chandler. And for some reason I have a funny feeling that next year will be the year Karl finally lets go of his ego and does something special like when he first got here. But again this all depends on obtaining a PG. It has to be done. Otherwise I see trouble.
"I have been a fan of the Nugs (and of AI) looooooong before AI came to town and I would bet that as good as AI is, he probably hasn't actually generated many truly new (aka bandwagon fans), certainly doubtful that the bandwagoners are now zealous enough to have a strong presence on this website."
You forget that we live in the age of League Pass.
I was a Philly fan until the trade, and now I bleed Powder Blue.
"I laugh also when people tend to suggest that Chuky Atkins would have made a big difference."
What would have made a difference last year was not Atkins, (though he would've helped), but Nene. I thought the season was lost when the cancer diagnosis was reported.
What frustrates me is that I thought that returning last year's team along with Nene would have moved the Nuggets from the good category to the contending category. I would've liked to have gotten to see that team for a year.
coloradoMust say I'm happy to see Camby go. If I never have to look at that pathetic jump shot again I suspect it will save me an ulcer. As for his great defense, Camby could never guard his own man (aka Gasols bitch), throw in he's 35 and were lucky the Clips took him off our hands.
Najara will be missed 10 times more then Camby. Nobody worked as hard as Eddie on this team. Even developed a pretty nice 3ball. Would like to have seen him signed instead of Carter. That was a dumb move.
As long as they sign JR, I'm willing to wait a season or two to get the right mix for this team. Sign the Birdman, give JR 30plus minutes a night and work on getting a REAL point guard for this team.
I'm looking for a mid season trade of AI. Should be lots of interest in a 21 mil salary clearance sale. Maybe we could net a good PG in a trade and get this ship turned around sooner than we think.
In the meantime, I'd love to see the Birdman soar again.
Ok so Eric B, i like you, i hope you know this, we've agreed many a time on this site but i think you overexagerrated the lack of willingness for teams to take camby. The trade for hinrich DID make sense because the bulls CAN use Camby seeing as they have no clear starter at center (we all know that they have had their problems with Noah, who isn't a pure center anyways) Also, I'm sure had Sa wanted to shell out the cash they would much rather have had Camby at C then Thomas, Oberto, Elson or any of the other garbage they rotate in and out of that position each year. Camby is also a better and feasible option (talent wise) for Wash, Tor and Char (keep in mind that Okafor is the most likely of all RFA's to be with a new team next year). Otherwise i agree with your posts and they were good comments.
Cousin Steven, eat a dick you stupid knicks fan, how can you even call yourself a fan when you say things like abandon your team, i bet you this guy will be the first one on the Brooklyn bandwagon in two years. And finally i will say this about our trade. Camby HAD to go, no doubt about that, he was completely inept on offense and honestly wasn't a great defender we made him look good because the rest of our defense is so bad that he bailed us out, but how many times did we see camby rotate off his guy for help defense only to see the ball get dished to his guy for the easy dunk. If nothing else now we get to see if Nene can hang or not. I still believe if that darn brazilian can just stay healthy he could be one of the most dominant post presences in the league, well now we get to find out and at least now we don't have to watch the Camby/Kmart brick off, i swear those guys competed every night for worst looking shot of the game. Also we know Nene won't ever be chucking up threes because got lucky once during the season and suddenly thinks he is a viable 3 point option. All i care about now, all i care about is that we keep Kleiza because i love him and he has always been my fav on the nugs. And the last thing i will say is that we should all pray JR comes out next season and puts up 25 a game along with melo and ai, we're gonna need 140 a game to win now.
Ok, I HAVE to disagree with you on something. Your myth #1 is flat out false. You can say on paper it clearly looks to be a salary dump, but your points don't add up.
If you saying that if Denver does not use the Trade Exception before the start of the season, that is indicates it was a salary dump.
However, that means no such thing. If they find the right trade, I think they pull the trigger. But if they don't find the right trade, and wait until draft time or summer time next year to pull the trigger, then so be it.
What this gives them is the flexibility to make a move. Let's face it, not that many people wanted Camby. And if they did, what sort of "stiffs" would we have to take back from that trade? Now we have the option to make a move when and if we choose to make a move.
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